Super Packs Update - 12/2/2011
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-12-02 18:45 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Good shift regarding the ATIOs. As for why this was done for ATIOs and not costume parts boggles me.
I think the real stickler will be the exclusivity of the costume items, which many have stated, including me,would be the 'only' thing they are interested in from the costume packs.
If they are tradable, I personally would likely get over it as I would at least be able to buy them off of the Auction House with inf, but if they end up being 600 mil+ items like PvP IOs, I will likely be very frustrated with the super pack/costume issue.
Still think putting 'exclusive items' in the 'purchase until you get lucky' super packs exhibits the type of marketing I despise. Here's hoping that you remove the exclusivity of costume parts as well.
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These all sound like steps in the right direction, pending final costs and drop chances. I just want to stress how important it is to have the costumes not be exclusive either. Anything other than being available for purchase directly, for 400 PP (even if said purchase is restricted to VIPs or something) is probably not going to go down well.
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One man's trash is another man's treasure.|
Originally Posted by Lazarillo
Just because they sell for 90 points a pop doesn't mean they're worth that much. Heck, because of the way they're consumed, they're practically without any worth at all. If they worked more like, say, the Experienced power, they'd be worth attaching a price tag to, at least, but even then, more than around 20 points each would be a rip-off.
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If enough people are willing to pay points for them, (and I know this will sound harsh) it really doesn't matter if the rest of the people think it's a ripoff. The Devs will sell them. To some, the time in-game required to earn them(if there will be one in the end) is the bigger ripoff.
The question becomes, how much fiddling is required to find a happy medium, when the time that requires could be spent doing new things? Messing with price points is a non-trivial exercise.
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This is a great start, but my most important concern remains unaddressed (as of yet, not that you guys aren't aware!).
My primary suggestion for making the costumes non-exclusive is to announce a date for a later, non-exclusive release (ie. make them become non-exclusive at an announced time, say 2-3 months after the super pack launches). Then, price the pieces individually, with the idea that players can fill out any pieces they might be missing.
Oddly, offering ATIOs through in-game means actually makes it more likely i might buy some super packs, because enhancements are worthless without being able to obtain the whole set (also, I would feel kinda guilty buying packs them if the friends I play with didn't have any access to them (ie. can't afford them)... is that odd?).
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Make sure we can get the costumes some other, sure way, and I'm okay with this.
I too like the idea of only VIPs being able to buy the costumes directly, but right away. Think of it as advertising for the Super Packs. A VIP goes running around in some costume that Free/Premium players have never seen before but love, and they're going to want to know how to get it. And if they don't like the Super Pack idea... well, one month's subscription will open up access AND give them 400 points to buy it with, and if they enjoy being a VIP enough during that month...
When you eventually add a NEW costume set to the Super Packs, I'd then put the old set for sale to everyone.
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This is great, and resolves my major concerns about the Packs, assuming that the costume parts do end up being purchasable through non-random means from the Paragon Market. I wasn't expecting the ATIO/Catalyst change, and I am very happy to see these advantages made earnable through in-game means. I think that is a good decision for the sake of game balance. I'm obviously still not a fan of random goods for real money, but the removal of the exclusivity means I don't feel you are trying to coerce people into gambling.
Thank you so much for making the changes you've decided to make, and I'm hopeful that the costume part decision works out in a satisfactory manner as well. This post, combined with David's Workshop thread and the official announcement of the retro Sci-Fi pack, really made my day.
Edit: also, I think the inf sink you are adding for buying the ATIOs is a very good move for the in-game economy.
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That's definitely an idea I can get behind as well.
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Originally Posted by DarkGob
I like the "immediate purchase availability for VIPs, frees/preems can only get them in Packs" idea even better, but I'm not holding my breath for that one.
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And 90% of my complaints, gone just like that. Assuming the costume parts are made nonexclusive, I am content. Thanks for listening to us.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
Now for the new stuff:
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It's really kind of funny in a vaguely twisted way. Everyone who's saying they're happy with the pack now are happy because the pack has been neutered to the point where they can avoid buying it.
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People who had a problem with predatory marketing being happy with not being treated as prey is funny? It rather makes perfect sense to me, especially since people still seem happy to pay for what they want.
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Originally Posted by Bosstone
It's really kind of funny in a vaguely twisted way. Everyone who's saying they're happy with the pack now are happy because the pack has been neutered to the point where they can avoid buying it.
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Still going to cost me way more than 400 points for the costume set, though isn't it.
Not happy till that is made no exclusive to the pack.
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Well, I wasn't going to buy them, and still won't, even though the only items in the pack that I care about are still, as of this announcement, exclusive to the pack. I've always been okay with the idea of Super Packs, just not exclusive items.|
Originally Posted by Bosstone
It's really kind of funny in a vaguely twisted way. Everyone who's saying they're happy with the pack now are happy because the pack has been neutered to the point where they can avoid buying it.
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Hopefully the costume pieces will end up non-exclusive as well.
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Oddly enough, this is why I WILL buy one every now and then. (Assuming I like how the costumes are made non-exclusive)|
Originally Posted by Bosstone
It's really kind of funny in a vaguely twisted way. Everyone who's saying they're happy with the pack now are happy because the pack has been neutered to the point where they can avoid buying it.
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If the costumes had been exclusive, I would have refused to buy one. EVER. While I don't care as much about the 'Type-Os, I would have felt morally opposed to buying packs due to them being exclusive to the packs too.
Once those problems are gone, I'll be able to buy one every now and then and enjoy the randomness of the game, tossing whatever I get to whichever character can put it to the best use. It's a box of Cracker Jacks that might have that very rare decent toy inside.
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To be fair, Z seems to be calling them "ATOs" - but I vote for "ATEs"
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Huh... Well, that's surprising. I came in here ready to be outraged, but the new information is actually pretty encouraging. The specifics are obviously up in the air, but hearing that "ATIOs" (you need a better name for them) will be available for in-game activity is a pleasant surprise. I probably still won't actually want them, but as a matter of principle, this is very, very good to hear.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
In the interest of making this information more readily available (the other thread , while a great conversation, is nearing 1300 posts), I'm going to summarize some details we've shared since the Pummit regarding Super Packs, as well as let you in on the results of our continuing internal discussions.
First to recap:
Thanks! -Z |
Great news thanks.
I still think the costume parts need to be sold separately. I am willing to pay a higher price if need be for these parts, I just don't want to have to deal with a random generator.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
First to recap:
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Encouraging news at least.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
Now for the new stuff:
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This is great news, very happy about this.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
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More good news!
Many thanks to the team.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Huh... Well, that's surprising. I came in here ready to be outraged, but the new information is actually pretty encouraging. The specifics are obviously up in the air, but hearing that "ATIOs" (you need a better name for them) will be available for in-game activity is a pleasant surprise. I probably still won't actually want them, but as a matter of principle, this is very, very good to hear.
As for making pack-exclusive costumes available through other means over the Paragon Store... Sell them. Simply delay the sets by six months from the time they show up in the gambling packs to the time they show up as a regular purchase and then price them either normal or double. That way, people who don't have the patience of a saint will be inclined to try and get the pieces they want early by gambling on them, and people like me who have ZERO patience for uncertain returns for my money will simply wait it out. Additionally, consider making these costumes available for purchase immediately, but restrict that purchase to VIPs only and release these costumes to Free and Premium players only in the gambling packs. That way, I have one more reason to maintain a subscription. |
I agree with Samuel here on all points.
And thanks for the communication
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Very pleased. I will now demonstrate my pleasure with this decision by buying some points.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
Now for the new stuff:
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I'm not sure what the competitors are doing, but this all sounds so much better Zwill.
As mentioned by myself (in other thread) and others (in this thread)... as far as the costume pieces... I'd be fine if they were exclusive to the pack upon release and then cycled out into the market for a new set introduced into Super Pack with say... a new Issue release.
I wouldn't mind a "get it here in the Super Packs" first vs "get them here or don't get them at all". Some would wait and still buy later, while I'm sure some would want them ASAP and try their luck with the packs.
Again, thanx for listening to the players. It's what keeps me around after all this time.
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This post is unnecessary. I hope you don't think all the people who were against the pack were saying "I hate this but I'll buy them anyway". I imagine it's that sort of rigid thinking that got the idea the go-ahead in the first place.|
Originally Posted by Bosstone
It's really kind of funny in a vaguely twisted way. Everyone who's saying they're happy with the pack now are happy because the pack has been neutered to the point where they can avoid buying it.
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The fact that I opposed exclusives doesn't necessarily mean that I will be willing to jump through any hoop you put out in order to obtain them. Much more likely I'm going to look at your obstacle course, shake my head, and go elsewhere. Even just making that announcement likely cost them a lot in terms of goodwill and customer loyalty.
A circle forms, everybody comes round
Just to hear the incredible sound
Of a genius smashing expectations
- Jonathan Coulton
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Works for me.|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
Thanks! -Z |
And now that Catalysts are potentially going to be dropped in game (as well as via superpacks) this got me thinking: could you guys consider opening up ALL IOs to being catalyzed? i.e. Someone can turn any IO into essentially a levelless purple recipe with boosts to how it performs individually, the bounses it contributes to, and the way those bonuses carry down when exemping?
Yet another absurd path to absurd power to be certain. But may be a "fun" obsessive activity for those looking to further perfect their most perfect characters.
Oh and a few questions regarding Catalysts as currently envisioned:
- Will these in game Catalyst drops be bound to the character that gets them, like iSalvage? Or can we trade them amongst our own account via gleemail?
- Conversely: Can Catalyzed ATOs (or any Catalyzed IO as per my suggestion above) be traded amongst characters on our account or are those character bound?
- Will Catalyst drop rates be affected by usage of Windfalls?
Thanks for the updates. Can't speak for other community members, but the way feedback has been taken, considered and worked into these upcoming features and David's design experiment thread, my goodwill towards Paragon Studios has been bolstered. Thanks for doing your job well here.
well, my particular dog in the fight, costume pieces, still is in limbo, but the atio news is really better than i had hoped. and gives me confidence for how the costume situation will resolve itsself. I do want to see aragon makemoney on this. their financial health determines the budgets to get content for the game, so if for no better reason its in my interests as well, i just didnt like a gambling aspect. im hoping the community and the devs can work to a mutually beneficial agreement.
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Originally Posted by Bosstone
It's really kind of funny in a vaguely twisted way. Everyone who's saying they're happy with the pack now are happy because the pack has been neutered to the point where they can avoid buying it.
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I wasn't going to buy the packs anyway.
The consumables at their current price point are ridiculous, I have no need of them at all to begin with. So suddenly bundling them for "cheaper" doesn't make them any more attractive to me.
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people, myself included, are happy the pack is no longer forced on us to get things we previously got in the market or ingame. the original concept i would not have purchased at any price because it was an issue of being forced if we wanted new content. since force has mostly been removed, i may well do a few "what the heck" flings during good overtime weeks to support the team that i already am paying a sub and using the market for. If i hit something good, woo, if not, i dont, i have the "buy it now" option, if i have been doing due diligence ingame. its currently a better situation (still waiting on costumes, obviously)
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Originally Posted by Bosstone
It's really kind of funny in a vaguely twisted way. Everyone who's saying they're happy with the pack now are happy because the pack has been neutered to the point where they can avoid buying it.
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Another two big steps in the right direction.
1) Thank you for showing this is still on the radar and in active table discussion. I had begun to fear it was being ignored in favor of more positive topics.
2) I like all of the improvements mentioned. Kudos for creative a hybrid offering on the ATOs, where in-game is possible but probably more convenient to purchase from the Paragon Market - exactly as the Paragon Market was presented to be.
I'm still not in favor of random drops using real money unless the packs are at 20 points or less because the odds do not balance out the content unless everything included is desired - which the multiple threads have shown is not so for the majority of vocal forumites. On the other hand, I understand you wanting to introduce another desirable option to increase revenue. That's the long-term goal of any business.
* 2A) Of all the solutions presented in the various threads to date, my favorite for new costumes pieces (and any other highly sought items that will be part of the Super Packs) is to also make them available in the Paragon Market via bundles and a-la-carte for VIP only. It allows Premiums to try and get the pieces via Super Packs, or subscribe for the right to cherry pick their items.
Thank you for working hard in this and everything else to make the City Of Heroes game our favorite that all players can enjoy, support, and happily talk their friends' ears off about.