Super Packs Update - 12/2/2011

What are enhancement catalysts?

They make orange level ATOs into purple level ATOs... I think.

They're an upgrade doodad that lets you make ATIOs into "Superior" versions of themselves. That sounds like it turns a rare into a purple, though I'm not sure if that implies enhancement boost strength, set bonus magnitude, or both.

I can't find it now (of course), but yeah, the purple versions of the ATIOs are stronger/more powerful.

80 points is still likely to be too high when the final calculations are made for what it will cost players looking for completeness. The Coupon Collector's Problem comes into play here. Please consider reducing the Super Pack individual cost further and the bulk discount even more proportionately.

So far, the preference in this thread seems to favor DarkGob's idea of gating costume sets for market purchase behind VIP status over Samuel Tow's of delaying them. Some combination of the two might be an intriguing sales tactic, e.g. VIPs could purchase the proposed costume sets upon release at the Paragon Market while Preems would have to wait until, say, the release of a subsequent Super Pack costume set to have that option.

This is welcome news. Although it raises potential issues with raid grinding and pay-to-win scenarios, it's far preferable to either Super Pack exclusivity or auction house saleability. Just to re-emphasize, the overall playerbase does not want real money transactions to be tied to inf. in any way.

Thanks again for keeping us informed about Paragon Studios' decision-making, Zwillinger. We look forward to providing further feedback.

If that is the case I will buy the packs any way. Chances are I would any way, but I still feel there should be a way to acquire these items outside of real money.

Most amusing complement I've ever been paid on an outfit, from @Ukase regarding my Blue Eyed She-Devil Anson Maddocs "Fallen Angel" homage:
"She gives my ex-wife a run for the money."

Translation please.

Getting out of bed does not require us to purchase the opportunity to do it. Failure of comparison.

Non sequiter; move along please.

*Turns up nose* and it'll STAY up until at least VIP players have the opportunity to purchase the pieces, as we do now.

I am sorry that the concept of people not wanting to gamble upsets you to this degree.

No hypocrisy needed, I'll be right up-front about it: I don't want to gamble for costume pieces [the rest of this crap I really don't care about].

We'll have to agree to disagree.

Thank you.

It's a big deal to me that in-game performance isn't necessarily based on real-world spending. Paying real money for convenience is fine by me though. As long as the costs aren't ridiculous, this is a big thumbs up.

Cheers!

Sure thing. I'll break this down, then.

There are three complaints about Super Packs floating around here, all based on one aspect of the Super Packs: The Random Factor. How? Look here:

A: The random factor combined with the 'costume exclusivity' means that people will have to pay a dollar at a chance to get the costume parts they want, because they can't do so elsewhere. First off, I'd like to propose that this is BS because many people blew some serious change on getting the Celestial Set and didn't wail and moan like they have here.

So that's one part of the hypocrisy, the other is that we have had exclusive costume pieces that we had to pay money for before: The Super Boosters. Again, this is hypocrisy to complain about here and now, as we've been doing this for years. There's another part to this but I'll focaus on it in...

B: We have had Super Boosters that we pay $10 USD for or what have you for years, as I've said. We've also, for JUST as long, been paying that money and getting pieces in those sets we used once or twice, or never, or possibly even disliked. So, here again, what's going on with the Super Packs is nothing new, but now all of a sudden it's A Bad Thiung And We The Playerbase Will Not Have Such Foolishness - which is ridiculous cosdiering this aspect of buying costume sets isn't new, at all.

C: And finally, I'd like to point out that those upset about the random factor meaning they will have to spend points to get these costume pieces? Possibly this misused term of 'a lot of points' due to the random factor? Well, as I said before, how else do you think you were gonna get them? Mailing fruitbaskets to Paragon Studios? Well, that costs money, and so do Paragon Points, which is what would've been the currency to get these costume sets anyways.

So, any questions?

Most amusing complement I've ever been paid on an outfit, from @Ukase regarding my Blue Eyed She-Devil Anson Maddocs "Fallen Angel" homage:
"She gives my ex-wife a run for the money."

No it doesn't, but your failing to comprehend me. See next...

This is not a non sequiter, actually. I am stating for a fact that everything in life is a gamble not for comparison but to open your eyes that you gamble every minute of every day just by being alive. So if you hate gambling, you hate living.

Overly entitled, much?

No, it's not that, it's the idea of people, many of whom are wise and reasonable most of the time, being petty and close minded that upsets me.

We already agree to disagree. Like I said, I don't care THAT we disagree, I care WHY we disagree.

Most amusing complement I've ever been paid on an outfit, from @Ukase regarding my Blue Eyed She-Devil Anson Maddocs "Fallen Angel" homage:
"She gives my ex-wife a run for the money."

What part of "getting out of bed or breathing do not require monetary purchases, but buying these silly packs DOES" are you immune to?

You damn' straight I am. I like to pay my money and take my choice, not pay my money to take a chance; this is where we differ.

I dont know what I can say here.... I'm sorry for you, but I doubt your dislike will change many minds.

Its a free country, and you can go to the casino all you like. I don't like casinos, viewing them as hopelessly rigged for the benefit of the House... so I don't go there. I won't go to the CoX version, either.

Well, I pass through the Golden Giza every now and then, but you get my drift. If you like to gamble, have at it.

This works for me. I don't particularly care about the costume parts, but I was interested in the ATOs for my main, and possibly for a Dominator I'm planning.

I would probably buy them for Points if they were available for direct purchase (both ATOs and Catalysts), but buying the ATOs in-game with play money works just fine. I hope the Catalysts are actually acquirable doing the Dark Astoria content, and the drop rate isn't something ludicrously low.

I think this is a very good compromise, and am happy that you listened to the feedback.

The fact that Life is unpredictable and can end at any moment is a given. We don't choose it to be so, it just is.

However, choosing NOT to gamble away our hard earned money has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with that.

It's a spurious correlation.

What part of my statement that I know that getting out of bed and breathing don't require money did you not understand? Also what part of my statement that I was pointing out that these things themselves are gambles, and yet you make them, did you not comprehend?

I'm not being sarcastic, I'm serious. What didn't you get, and I'll address that.

Fine then. Nobodies twisting your arm to pay for these. It's up to you whether the costume pieces here are worth it, or not. I'm not here telling you you have to buy these packs and neither is Paragon. But yet, here you are, arguing with me as if this is some big crisis. It's not.

Why I'm here talking about this is because I'm upset that there have been statements to the effect that Super Packs are <insert complaint here> and that I think that's BS because these concerns are equally valid to almost everything Paragon has offered us before. Yet, no-one made these comments then, and I'm peeved to see it happen here when it's not a new concept at it's core.

Well, that won't stop me from trying. A man who moves mountains begins by carrying away small stones. I'm here trying to get people to realize they're being dishonest with themsleves over these Super Packs, I'm not trying to get people to like them, and you NEED to realize that.

I'm not here promoting gambling. I'm really not, you've missed the point on that over a dozen times by now, because I've said as much - many times and many different ways. What I AM here promoting is asking people to be honest with themselves when they say they dislike the Super Packs when, as I've said and explained, these arguments are invalid because they would have applied equally to the Super Booster and the Paragon Market and yet, while they've made those points there too, there's two problems with that:

A: Dead horse is dead. This is how it's worked for a long time and this is nothing new to pay money for ingame items. Indeed, all the Super Packs are is a new method, one that I find exciting but readily admit others will not find, as you have found, and as you have said.

B: The arguments here are less valid now then they ever have been before because many people have had these same problems with toher parts of the CoHF gaming experience and have NOT made these arguments against such there, which is where the dishonesty comes in: Super Packs present absolutely ZERO new problems for anyone. So griping about it isn't honest, and I THAT is why I'm upset.

If after that you still don't get all this, please just say exactly that and nothing more, and I'll drop this personal line with you. I'm still feeling like I'm talking to a wall wtih you and I have no intentions of doing so all day.

Most amusing complement I've ever been paid on an outfit, from @Ukase regarding my Blue Eyed She-Devil Anson Maddocs "Fallen Angel" homage:
"She gives my ex-wife a run for the money."

People are not complaining about having to purchase costumes, per se. These kind of complaints didn't exist with the Celestial set because spending the reward tokens got you a predetermined, set number and type of pieces. People don't know if they will immediately, eventually or ever get the pieces they want from a Super Pack. Is it really that hard for you to see the difference?

Nobody is complaining about having to spend money for costume pieces; in fact, many posters have reiterated their willingness to purchase the pieces a la carte. What they're not willing to do is shell out for some unknown probability chance that they'll get the piece(s) they want. Again, not rocket surgery.

See above. People want to be able to buy the pieces, not buy a shot at getting the pieces. With Super Boosters, you knew you'd get x,y,z costume parts, and you could decide whether or not to purchase based on that. Whether or not buyers disliked or didn't use some of the pieces, they still got exactly the parts they paid for.

Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, in this thread is upset about actually having to spend money to buy points for costume pieces. Posters are arguing specifically against the random nature of the packs, which you seem to want to gloss over in order to to make your straw man look prettier.

So if I hate the little raspberry they put on top of my brownie, clearly I hate the entire dessert. If I don't particularly fancy the Incarnate system, I hate CoH. Fallacy of composition.

Why would you care about any of that? After all, you could get hit by a bus tomorrow, right?

And playing things safe in life is a gamble, too. I'm not talking about death. There's a billion other things that we risk by being alive, but that's besides the point.

The point I'm trying to make here is NOT that people should like this, but that those who dislike Super Packs need to be more honest with themselves and everyone else in the reasons they give for doing so.

I've already said, I don't care THAT people dislike them, I care WHY people dislike them, and I'm not here trying to get people TO like them, but to be honest about WHY they dislike them.

Is that so wrong? I mean, people are so dishonest with themselves and others these days, what's so awful about me trying to change that, one small step here, and one small step there. Why people are acting like I'm trying to mindjob or browbeat them into liking Super Packs, I don't understand, because I've stated mutltiple times that's not the case...

Most amusing complement I've ever been paid on an outfit, from @Ukase regarding my Blue Eyed She-Devil Anson Maddocs "Fallen Angel" homage:
"She gives my ex-wife a run for the money."

Can someone explain what these are? I guess I haven't been keeping up.

Not buying the packs is a viable option. Not getting of bed (for most people) or not breathing (for all people) are not viable options. The two aren't comparable.

No one made the same complaints before because the situations are not equivalent. We've never had a booster, a pack or an individual costume piece where the items you paid for were not predetermined and could reasonably have been known to the buyer. Posters are complaining about the random nature of the packs, not having to spend money per se. The "CCG" concept *is* a new concept for Paragon Studios in regards to paid content. What was that you were saying about a brick wall?

You're not going to get people to realize they're being something they're not by positing ridiculous comparisons and logical fallacies.

The arguments are not invalid and don't apply to any other paid content. Because the argument is "We don't want to be forced to pay for a pack of RANDOM items in order to get what we want."

Again, glossing over the fact that it's precisely the method that's being objected to, not the fact that it is paid content.

No other *paid content* require the purchase of random rather than predetermined items.

Making the same specious arguments over and over again isn't going to make people suddenly see the light and agree with you.

Nope, not at all. I agree with them, and you. I have no problem with this either, because as I've been saying I don't have a problem with people disliking something - that's not something I'd deny people because that'd be akin to emotional assualt. What I'm here asking people to do is look at WHY they dislike them, and to be a little more honest about that, because I feel the arguments given here apply equally to other parts of the game and yet, these weren't brought up so ferociously there. So, why are they here, when that feels to me to be hypocrisy?

THAT'S what I'm trying to understand, and possibly get people to be more open about. In the end, it's good for everyone: the customers as individuals and as a group, and for Paragon as well. We can't improve the game in an effective manner if we aren't being honest about it, and that's my main concern.

Rocket.. surgery? Hmm. Well, no, it isn't... rocket surgery... and I have heard that comment myself and understand the need for them to have it - see two parts down. What I'd like to point out is that there have always been things exclusive to one system and the only reason people here dislike THIS one is due to it being random.

Not everyone likes that, I'm well aware. But the idea that they need to have those pieces handed to them on a silver platter because they don't like the random system is preposterous since every costume set one buys is a roll of the dice on whether one will like, or use, everything in it. Hence, I feel this argument is dishonest.

I'd like to point out - again - that nobody is forced to buy these. You can freely choose NOT to, and give up an immediate hope of getting the desired costume parts. I'm not trying to say you have to buy Super Packs, I'm trying to ask you to understand that the complaints are invaildatin ghtemselves because they apply to other parts of this game that have not been complained abou t in this manner.

I get that, I really do. And I do even agree, buying a 'roll of the dice' isn't going to appeal to everyone. But I am trying to point out the Super Boosters were rolls of the dice, too, because no one knew until they bought them whether they would like, or dislike, any or all of the contents. So it seems unfair to me to hate on Super Packs just because they're the same in a way, as the Boosters were.

I'm not saying they are, directly. But, nevetheless, they are - indirectly. How? Here, I'll explain.

Say the odds are 50 / 50 you'll get what you want randomly, for a dollar. Now, you roll, and most of time you'll get what you wanted in either on, two, or three dollars. Now, if the item you want is more rare, you end up paying even more.

This is at the heart of people's arguments even if they have not directly said so, because that is WHY they dislike the random factor and want a 'sure thing'. I don't disagree with them, or this, but it's a fallacy of minor consequence here, but a fallacy nonetheless.

No, that's not it at all. Yes, I think you're right, I did mis-state myself and went overboard on generalization, but then again, one can't deny that every minute we live, something could go right, or wrong, based on many things both inside and outside our control. This, in essence, is a sort of gambling, and if one hates something that is the essence of life, then one is at odds with the essence of life, and that's what i was trying to get across.

Puttig aside the impression I get that you'd be ok with me getting hit by a bus tomorrow, I care about this because I've made it my mission in life to get people to be BETTER people. So, here I am, trying. And maybe I'm succeeding, or maybe not. But either way not trying with or without success would be to deny who I am in this regard, something tantamount to suicide.

Most amusing complement I've ever been paid on an outfit, from @Ukase regarding my Blue Eyed She-Devil Anson Maddocs "Fallen Angel" homage:
"She gives my ex-wife a run for the money."

Personally I find thata game company known for being very good creating a method of introducing children/young teens, into real money gambling to be well I don't know enough unmodable words to describe how foul I find it.

Valid point taken. I'll leave this line of thinking be for a time, and see what comes of it. Hopefully, we as players can agree that snap-judgements, such as the ones I've seen in regards to Super Packs, should be re-examined rather than held on to at all costs.

I mean, the "Why Super Packs Are A Bad Idea" thread was launched within minutes of them being announced, making this the biggest, fastest, and possibly most controversial snap judgement there's been in CoHF for a long time. I've been aware this whole time that the general sentiment had the power of a speeding locomotive, and that my asking for a moment for us to examine WHY there's been so immediate and passionate an outcry against them is roughly like me standing in front of that locomotive and holding out mhand in hopes of getting things to slow down and be more rational.

I knew this, and did it anyways, so now having done so, I'll fade out and hope I've started the ball rolling on a discussion about the WHY's of the for and against on Super Packs. Because I think it's a valid concern, and hopefully this could help all of us out in the future.

Most amusing complement I've ever been paid on an outfit, from @Ukase regarding my Blue Eyed She-Devil Anson Maddocs "Fallen Angel" homage:
"She gives my ex-wife a run for the money."

Orange powered recipies that can be slotted depending on Archtype.

The second thing is used to either convert them to a different random Archtype enhacement, or power them up to an untradable purple recipe version.