Super Packs Update - 12/2/2011
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-12-02 18:45 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Well, that becomes a problem. What do you make the primary attribute of the set, then?|
Originally Posted by Zybron1
I think it's a mistake in both cases. All of these should be designed to work with powers in the primary power pool of each AT.
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Forcefield needs Defense Buffs.
Cold needs Defense Buffs, Defense Debuffs, and Slows, primarily.
Empathy and Pain need Healing.
Sonic needs Resist Damage.
Traps and Trick Arrow need every bloody thing.
So what do you do? You could design a set that focuses on Accuracy, Recharge, and Endurance Reduction, but that comes at a cost of not buffing whatever primary attribute you might need.
Same goes for Tanker defensive powersets, too. Some use Defense, some use Resistance, some use Healing.
The one commonality across all ATs and all powerset combinations is that you have access to direct damage attacks. Making them damage sets is the safest way to ensure universality.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
The AT Sets are of no concern to me whatsoever; with the current Set IOs being more than adequate to overpower your character, I don't see AT Sets being of any more relevance than the PVP Sets, which is to say, zero.
The costume pieces are another matter entirely.
It's bad enough that every single costume piece since Freedom came out has been released in the Market. Now we're supposed to GAMBLE on even getting them? Pay real money for a CHANCE that we will get something we actually want?
I thought the whole point behind the "Freedom" in the name was that we got to choose how to play and how much we wanted to pay for. The implication being that everything would be available, provided you wanted to meet the requirements to pay for it, should that be necessary. Buy only what you want, not buy the same thing repeatedly for a mere chance to get what you actually want. Of course anyone who knew anything about "free"-to-play systems as they exist elsewhere knew that was a lie when they said it, but the fact still remains that if I'm going to spend actual real hard-earned dollars for things that don't physically exist, I better know EXACTLY what I'm getting.
I had been planning to renew my VIP subscription during December to take advantage of the buy-one-year-get-two-months-free deal, but when I heard about this, that plan is off the table. Unless I hear that the items in these Sucker Packs... er, sorry, Super Packs, are going to be available through other means than gambling, I'm letting the subscription lapse. I might continue to play whatever limited number of characters a Free account allows, but even that's doubtful, given that Guild Wars 2 is coming out next year and allows you to play for free without penalizing you for it (and Guild Wars is still up and running and does the same thing).
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
It's a chance, yes, but it's a really good chance.
on the beta server, opening ten packs landed me a near-complete costume. missing only the boots.
you really gonna tell me you can't make do with something like that? what am I saying, of COURSE you're going to tell me you can't.
you could have it all
My empire of dirt
I will let you down
I will make you <3
It's one single solitary lone costume set. They are not now selling all costumes through the random method.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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Yes, but others have opened 30 packs before they finish the set.|
Originally Posted by Party_Kake
It's a chance, yes, but it's a really good chance.
on the beta server, opening ten packs landed me a near-complete costume. missing only the boots. |
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Originally Posted by Bosstone
It's one single solitary lone costume set. They are not now selling all costumes through the random method.
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Personally, not interested in anything else in the packs, so too steep for me.
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Doesn't matter. It should be zero lone solitary costume sets sold through this method.
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Originally Posted by Bosstone
It's one single solitary lone costume set. They are not now selling all costumes through the random method.
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"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
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I think one of the issues that's really bothering people is the "what if-", Boss. It's not *just* about this one costume set. It's about what's likely to happen in the future if these packs sell as well as expected. (Or even if they don't- |
Originally Posted by Bosstone
It's one single solitary lone costume set. They are not now selling all costumes through the random method.
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)There's a concern that it won't stop with the Elemental set; that this WON'T be the "one and only" outfit they've gone rando-box with for long. I think that's a valid concern. Games that use this kind of scheme do tend to develop a habit of locking more and more items into it as time goes on. They don't just pop one round of desirable items in there and call it a day. They KEEP putting things in there, sometimes at the expense of releasing items in other, less random ways.
@Brightfires - @Talisander
That chick what plays the bird-things...
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That's exactly what is going to happen. I remember when we had people scoffing that most good costume pieces would be gated behind the Super Booster concept. No way! The developers would NEVER do that to loyal customers! |
Originally Posted by Bright
I think one of the issues that's really bothering people is the "what if-", Boss. It's not *just* about this one costume set. It's about what's likely to happen in the future if these packs sell as well as expected. (Or even if they don't-
)There's a concern that it won't stop with the Elemental set; that this WON'T be the "one and only" outfit they've gone rando-box with for long. I think that's a valid concern. Games that use this kind of scheme do tend to develop a habit of locking more and more items into it as time goes on. They don't just pop one round of desirable items in there and call it a day. They KEEP putting things in there, sometimes at the expense of releasing items in other, less random ways. |
Lo and behold, they are gated. We get a free piece every now and then, but the really good stuff...? We're paying for every bit of that.
I don't give a damn about the Elemental set. I'll be pretty steamed when a set I really want is a thing I'll have to gamble with real-world money for, though. Promise.
At that point I will decline to gamble, tyvm.
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Worrying about what-if scenarios that aren't supported by current data will give you nervous breakdowns.|
Originally Posted by Bright
I think one of the issues that's really bothering people is the "what if-", Boss. It's not *just* about this one costume set. It's about what's likely to happen in the future if these packs sell as well as expected. (Or even if they don't-
) |
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| There's a concern that it won't stop with the Elemental set; that this WON'T be the "one and only" outfit they've gone rando-box with for long. I think that's a valid concern. |
The point is that at this point in time, it's highly alarmist to assume all costume sets, that is to say every single one, that is to say without any exceptions, will now be sold through the super packs.
We will have some that are obtained through the super packs.
We will have some that are obtained through VIP rewards.
We will have some that are obtained through direct purchase on the market.
We will have some that are obtained through in-game activity.
We will have some that are obtained through means not yet available.
We will even have some that are granted free with each issue to VIPs, and some to everyone regardless of status. Yeah, I do think that's in the minority these days, which disappoints me. The only reason I don't have stronger feelings about it is that we have 7 years of costume options built into the game already, so even if we never got another free one we still have millions of possible combinations available.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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Well I can understand your overall logic, that strikes me as somewhat flawed by design.|
Originally Posted by Bosstone
The only reason I don't have stronger feelings about it is that we have 7 years of costume options built into the game already, so even if we never got another free one we still have millions of possible combinations available.
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Okay, let's say we can have shirts that aren't tucked into our pants, but they're gated, but that should be okay, right? We have plenty of shirts that are tucked in but shirts none-the-less. What if I'd like a backpack of some sort, any sort on my toon? All backpacks to date are gated.
I think I've gotten some good enough points that I'm gonna stop here before I go off into one of my tangents. But do you understand Bosstone? Does this make any sense? And I don't mean to come off as rude, I'm just saying that it's kind of-... not right to say "well you have a millions of other pieces."
I speak partly from experience with my Samurai character Akuma Ryu. I hadn't been playing long enough to get him his samurai armor and he ended up feeling incomplete, this was not helped by the fact that the hakama- I'm sorry, Japanese pants we have in game look nary like actual Hakama, the martial arts 1 robe top hangs out and has no tucked in option (making my noble blooded samurai look like a GOD DAMN SLOB), without the samurai pack men have no Japanese style sandals, and it goes on.
Admittedly, I did have to grit my teeth and accept my samurai character would look more like a crappy anime bishonen than a proper Feudal Warrior of Noble Blood. But was it really okay? To be honest, not really, and the lack of various Japanese costume pieces like haori, proper samurai topknots, decent Japanese pants, or tucked in robes still grates me a little.
Okay, NOW I've gone off on a tangent.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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Problem is, what you consider important enough that it should be given freely may not matter as much to another player, who thinks such-and-such should be given freely but couldn't give a crap about what you want. Following that logic, all costume pieces in the game should be free, and while that would please people in the short term, it'd also cost Paragon a good deal of money.
Also, given that I said that I don't like that free pieces are in the minority these days, realize that what you're arguing is "Yes, you're unhappy about the current state, but you should be more unhappy!" And...I'm really not. I'd like characters with certain design choices that aren't in the costume creator, but I make do with what is there. If costume parts are available through a method I don't mind pursuing, I'll go get them. I try to take the game as is rather than stress that it's not exactly how I want it.
And all of that is really a separate issue entirely from the super packs themselves.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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Actually I think this is just part of what we have to accept as gamers in this game.|
Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
Well I can understand your overall logic, that strikes me as somewhat flawed by design.
... I think I've gotten some good enough points that I'm gonna stop here before I go off into one of my tangents. But do you understand Bosstone? Does this make any sense? And I don't mean to come off as rude, I'm just saying that it's kind of-... not right to say "well you have a millions of other pieces." ... Admittedly, I did have to grit my teeth and accept my samurai character would look more like a crappy anime bishonen than a proper Feudal Warrior of Noble Blood. But was it really okay? To be honest, not really, and the lack of various Japanese costume pieces like haori, proper samurai topknots, decent Japanese pants, or tucked in robes still grates me a little. Okay, NOW I've gone off on a tangent. |
In the past, having historically accurate characters with appropriate costuming was just flat out not going to happen. In here or in comics.
Part of creating a character involves some working with whatever it is you have to work with, and if a certain type of costume part is out of reach, it's out of reach. You can either make do without, or risk someone else taking your character's name and concept and doing an inferior job with it.
Every time I create a character, I don't just play around with the editor and make a costume, I visualize this character as the centerpiece of a comic book and a story.
If I'm missing something important to make the character look right, I make do. And yes, I'd expect the same of anyone else.
One of the pieces of the elemental order set looks really really cool, and that's the facemask. I'll try and get that asap, but I don't see myself having any problems if I don't get it. The cool thing about the super packs is that even if you can't get the exact look you want right off the bat, you CAN make do with other stuff now, and later on after buying more packs, fix it up.
If there was an archetype exclusive to the packs, that would be another problem entirely because you can't respec into that. The fact that you can always catch up later if you're particularly unlucky really helps to mitigate any potential downfalls of the super packs.
you could have it all
My empire of dirt
I will let you down
I will make you <3
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I don't think anyone has stated this. Its going to be a gradual thing.... just like the Super Boosters were.... and eventually its going to be ALL new costume pieces. They're not going to issue a fiat yet, knowing the [righteous] rage that would ensue; they're going to try to be sneaky about it. |
Originally Posted by Bosstone
The point is that at this point in time, it's highly alarmist to assume all costume sets, that is to say every single one, that is to say without any exceptions, will now be sold through the super packs.
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As if people are not going to notice.
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| We will even have some that are granted free with each issue to VIPs, and some to everyone regardless of status. |
If there is anything that runs me out of VIP status, this just might be it.
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Catch up how....? By buying more packs? *laughs* Gah. The more I think about it the more repellant this entire concept becomes.
| If there was an archetype exclusive to the packs, that would be another problem entirely because you can't respec into that. The fact that you can always catch up later if you're particularly unlucky really helps to mitigate any potential downfalls of the super packs. |
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Given the thread we're in and the quote of mine you replied to, you really need to be clear. Do you mean all new costume pieces will need to be bought, or do you mean all new costume pieces will need to be bought through the super pack?|
Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
I don't think anyone has stated this. Its going to be a gradual thing.... just like the Super Boosters were.... and eventually its going to be ALL new costume pieces.
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If it's through the super pack, then I feel safe in saying that's just being highly alarmist for reasons already stated.
It it's just buying all costume pieces...yeah, that's a possibility, but I would hope they'd know the kind of hate that would generate. Even I couldn't defend that as a good practice. But right now there's no indication that will happen. We still got costume sets in I21, and the IDF set was damn good. No sets announced for I22, but they've generally been downplaying the free sets lately. If we don't see any at the official release then we can start asking what the hell.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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This is such a stupid argument.|
Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
Catch up how....? By buying more packs? *laughs* Gah. The more I think about it the more repellant this entire concept becomes.
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Have you not been purchasing costume packs?
Have you created a character, spent money on costume parts, and then edited that character's costume to add those costume parts?
If you're so gung-ho desperate to get ONE costume piece, and you are cursed, and you open up 50 ****zillion packs and don't get it, you're obviously willing to buy a few more packs to finally get that piece you want. I'm saying it's important that you don't have to delete and recreate your character to take advantage of "finally" getting that last piece.
It's important that you CAN buy packs over time rather than shelling out a massive lump sum all at once. that changes the dynamic.
If the only way to get a subscription to this game was to shell out the cash quarterly, or yearly, it would not have as many subscribers. $15 a month is easier for some people to pay than a 6 month sub even with a discount figured in.
you could have it all
My empire of dirt
I will let you down
I will make you <3
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Since we are paying for 99% of new costume pieces now, that is a moot point. |
Originally Posted by Bosstone
Given the thread we're in and the quote of mine you replied to, you really need to be clear. Do you mean all new costume pieces will need to be bought, or do you mean all new costume pieces will need to be bought through the super pack?
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My suspicion is that soon all of them will be sold through these [un]Super Packs. They're testing the waters now, and although those waters are somewhat roiled by consumer dissent, they'll go ahead and do it anyways.
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| If it's through the super pack, then I feel safe in saying that's just being highly alarmist for reasons already stated. |
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| It it's just buying all costume pieces...yeah, that's a possibility, but I would hope they'd know the kind of hate that would generate. |
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| Even I couldn't defend that as a good practice. But right now there's no indication that will happen. |
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O rly?|
Originally Posted by Party_Kake
This is such a stupid argument.
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| Have you not been purchasing costume packs? |
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| Have you created a character, spent money on costume parts, and then edited that character's costume to add those costume parts? |
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| If you're so gung-ho desperate to get ONE costume piece, and you are cursed, and you open up 50 ****zillion packs and don't get it, you're obviously willing to buy a few more packs to finally get that piece you want. |
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| I'm saying it's important that you don't have to delete and recreate your character to take advantage of "finally" getting that last piece. |
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| It's important that you CAN buy packs over time rather than shelling out a massive lump sum all at once. that changes the dynamic. |
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| If the only way to get a subscription to this game was to shell out the cash quarterly, or yearly, it would not have as many subscribers. $15 a month is easier for some people to pay than a 6 month sub even with a discount figured in. |
Im glad you love the idea of these packs. I am more than happy to let you waste cash buying them. I'll pass, thanks.
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If you're going to be THAT guy - the one that drags in all kinds of nerdy Cliff Claven-like minutiae into any issue - then you're always going to be disappointed and nothing will ever satisfy you.|
Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
Well I can understand your overall logic, that strikes me as somewhat flawed by design.
Okay, let's say we can have shirts that aren't tucked into our pants, but they're gated, but that should be okay, right? We have plenty of shirts that are tucked in but shirts none-the-less. What if I'd like a backpack of some sort, any sort on my toon? All backpacks to date are gated. I think I've gotten some good enough points that I'm gonna stop here before I go off into one of my tangents. But do you understand Bosstone? Does this make any sense? And I don't mean to come off as rude, I'm just saying that it's kind of-... not right to say "well you have a millions of other pieces." I speak partly from experience with my Samurai character Akuma Ryu. I hadn't been playing long enough to get him his samurai armor and he ended up feeling incomplete, this was not helped by the fact that the hakama- I'm sorry, Japanese pants we have in game look nary like actual Hakama, the martial arts 1 robe top hangs out and has no tucked in option (making my noble blooded samurai look like a GOD DAMN SLOB), without the samurai pack men have no Japanese style sandals, and it goes on. Admittedly, I did have to grit my teeth and accept my samurai character would look more like a crappy anime bishonen than a proper Feudal Warrior of Noble Blood. But was it really okay? To be honest, not really, and the lack of various Japanese costume pieces like haori, proper samurai topknots, decent Japanese pants, or tucked in robes still grates me a little. Okay, NOW I've gone off on a tangent. |
Pro Tip: This is not a historical or cultural simulator, so don't expect it to know the details of 16th century Japanese peasants wore their hair. It's a comic book MMO, and trying to drag historical accuracy into it is pointless.
The Super Pack situation is a very simple one for me.
I will NEVER buy one. Anything that is available exclusively from a store purchased grab bag is something that I will never have.
I don't spend money unless I know exactly what I'm getting for that money.
My Deviant Art Page
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I'm not refusing to look at it. I like it.|
Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
There is the elephant in the room that a lot of people are refusing to look at: a guaranteed purchase vs the high probability of NOT getting what you want.
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Gambling is fun! Why else do you think people get so easily addicted to it?
Yes, gambling using real money, for real money, is usually a very bad idea, and I never do that, but the actual act is still fun.
These packs, however, avoid the bad pitfalls of normal gambling, by not offering real money as a return. Making them a simple case of spending money for fun (and items in a game). What else do you spend your disposable income on?
Now, if you don't find gambling to be fun, then you're in the minority and these packs are not for you. That doesn't make them bad. Just something you don't like.
"But these packs have items in them that I want and can't get anywhere else!"
Oh well, sucks to be you then.
These packs need to have exclusive items though, otherwise they'd be less fun for the people who do enjoy them. Why should your enjoyment take priority over other users'?
Main Hero: Mazey - level 50 + 1 fire/fire/fire blaster.
Main Villain: Chained Bot - level 50 + 1 Robot/FF Mastermind.
BattleEngine - "And the prize for the most level headed response ever goes to Mazey"
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Wait, so the good point of these packs is that they offer all of the ability to blow real cash that you get in real gambling, but none of the potential reward?|
Originally Posted by Mazey
These packs, however, avoid the bad pitfalls of normal gambling, by not offering real money as a return. Making them a simple case of spending money for fun (and items in a game). What else do you spend your disposable income on?
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If it were just the opposite, where you could blow game-money with the potential for a real reward, then you might have something. Of course, Paragon isn't stupid enough to adopt the sort of business model that trades nothing for something. Funny, though, that they seem to think we should be.
Where these packs differ from "real" (casino, etc.) gambling isn't that they eliminate a potential return, it's that they guarantee one. It may not be exactly what you wanted, but you always get something. Not so with, say, a roulette wheel or betting on a horse race. There's a reason they keep getting compared to sealed trading-card packs, and it's not just the presentation. Pay your money, you absolutely will get something for it, at least inasmuch as we all get a "thing" for our real money when we buy anything else for this game or pay a monthly fee to play it.
It's gambling, but it's not gambling gambling.
FUN FACT: That burst of light when you level up is actually the effectiveness escaping from your enhancements all at once.
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Yep. If I twist your words as much as you twisted mine, that's absolutely correct.|
Originally Posted by Lazarillo
Wait, so the good point of these packs is that they offer all of the ability to blow real cash that you get in real gambling, but none of the potential reward?
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The problems of real gambling are caused by the potential of gaining the money back. It seems like a good thing, but that's pretty much where the problems come from.
These packs don't have that potential, and so don't have those problems. That's a good thing.
They still, however, have the fun of gambling.
Paying money for fun, seems completely normal and appropriate to me.
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| If it were just the opposite, where you could blow game-money with the potential for a real reward, then you might have something. Of course, Paragon isn't stupid enough to adopt the sort of business model that trades nothing for something. Funny, though, that they seem to think we should be. |
Main Hero: Mazey - level 50 + 1 fire/fire/fire blaster.
Main Villain: Chained Bot - level 50 + 1 Robot/FF Mastermind.
BattleEngine - "And the prize for the most level headed response ever goes to Mazey"
I think it's a mistake in both cases. All of these should be designed to work with powers in the primary power pool of each AT.
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