Super Packs Update - 12/2/2011
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-12-02 18:45 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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What!?
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
rawr...you're scared of the claw...
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All we know so far is that they let you take a standard ATE (which is already attuned - attuned meaning it's enhancement values match your security level or as close to as possible, and it's set bonuses match your combat level or as close to as possible) it enhances it to purple status and makes it account bound.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Okay I missed something, so I'm going to take a stab at it:
Since I haven't heard of them before, and I did hear that we were gainig the ability, can I assume that an Enhancement Catalyst is how you make a normal IO set enhancement Attuned to your character? |
I have not seen anything else it does.
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This seems exceptionally reasonable.|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
In the interest of making this information more readily available (the other thread , while a great conversation, is nearing 1300 posts), I'm going to summarize some details we've shared since the Pummit regarding Super Packs, as well as let you in on the results of our continuing internal discussions.
First to recap:
Thanks! -Z |
If it hasn't been asked and answered yet, will the uncombined booster crystals be trading at Wentworths or purchasable with some combination of merits and inf ?
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You aren't insinuating that the playerbase in anyway resembles marine mammals are you ?
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Originally Posted by Party_Kake
targeting VIPs in a predatory manner? Like, with a harpoon gun? I'm not seeing that.
If there were an in-game mechanic that caused "free" enhancements and recipes and costume parts to stop dropping for VIPs so that VIPs were forced to spend more money to play, THAT would be predatory. |
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I had to laugh. You are correct, obviously correct, correct beyond argument, but welcome to the forums. Here the angry cyclops with an attitude is king
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Originally Posted by Mazey
Defintions, and using them precisely, are the most important thing there is in maths. If you fail to do that, you are failing to do maths.
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I'm glad these changes have sated a portion of the playerbase that was upset in the super packs would be 'the only' way to obtain ATIOs, however, these changes do nothing to assuage the frustration my portion of the playerbase has.
For those of us who only want the costume parts from the super packs, where are we left? I have no use for consumables (my e-mail is still filled with the freebies), and I don't want to collect ATIOs. So, why would I buy the packs? Costume parts.
However, at this point, I'm spending a money for packs filled with stuff I don't want and no guaranteed chance of getting any costume parts, and thus, I will likely not buy any. I would, however, want to buy the costume parts at a fair price.
At this point, I sort of expecting to write these new parts off as unattainables because given the other stuff I don't want that is being bundling into what I want to buy, they will likely be too expensive to warrant purchasing. However, I still hold out hope for change.
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Didnt they say alls those things would be sellable ont he market? So if you don't get hwat you want, sell them, and buy them when others put them on the market.
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Originally Posted by Necrotron_RO
I'm glad these changes have sated a portion of the playerbase that was upset in the super packs would be 'the only' way to obtain ATIOs, however, these changes do nothing to assuage the frustration my portion of the playerbase has.
For those of us who only want the costume parts from the super packs, where are we left? I have no use for consumables (my e-mail is still filled with the freebies), and I don't want to collect ATIOs. So, why would I buy the packs? Costume parts. However, at this point, I'm spending a money for packs filled with stuff I don't want and no guaranteed chance of getting any costume parts, and thus, I will likely not buy any. I would, however, want to buy the costume parts at a fair price. At this point, I sort of expecting to write these new parts off as unattainables because given the other stuff I don't want that is being bundling into what I want to buy, they will likely be too expensive to warrant purchasing. However, I still hold out hope for change. |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Yes, and it tanked hard. Financially.|
Originally Posted by Party_Kake
Does anyone here even remember that City of Heroes had a collectible card game?
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Originally Posted by Party_Kake
Namely, if you've never been to a casino, you should visit one.
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Originally Posted by Party_Kake
If I go to a casino and put $5 in chips on a table and don't win, I possess nothing.
If I purchase $5 in CCG content or super packs, I possess something. And, it turns out it's something desirable. |
At that point, I'm gambling with real money hoping to get the virtual items I do want, and getting more items I don't want.
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Originally Posted by Party_Kake
A casino is a very seedy place and a unique experience, and it's always bugged me that people talk about gambling without really knowing the significance of that word. Gambling means randomly winning or losing money, or exchangeable tokens that have money value, or chips that don't really have money value but can be exchanged for money, depending on how you look at that.
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Originally Posted by Party_Kake
In M:tG it can be considered gambling in the sense that when you buy a pack, you can literally sell the rares for a LOT of cash - back in Zendikar block you could pop open a pack of Worldwake and get Jace the Mind Sculptor which was literally worth more than a box of those same boosters.
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Originally Posted by Party_Kake
But this is the sale of a randomized collection of virtual goods which are not necessary for players, and it's meant to provide players with something for their purchase.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
To keep up with these additional costs in the long run we have to introduce sustainable consumable items. Here lies the challenge with City of Heroes...
When we've told you that we're going to be testing the waters with many different offerings, including things like Rare IO's, Dual Inspirations, Enhancement Unslotters, etc, etc there is a reason for this. City of Heroes is not an easy game to devise consumable items for. Because we've made things like Inspirations drop like...well...candy, because there's such a negligible death penalty, because everyone has easy access to travel powers...the list goes on. Things that work well for other games (like a Rez power or traditional "potions") will not work for us. Our challenge is to design a consumable item that is not only affordable and fun, but also offers items that are appealing and desirable by our players. |
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Originally Posted by Party_Kake
I'm seeing a distinct detachment between what we know so far and what people are assuming will happen.
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Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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Yeah, I'm betting (see, I don't need to expect monetary transaction to gamble!) that we'll see complaints about how much they'll cost and that there will be adjustments made. If I feel the costs are too much I might add my voice to those complaints.|
Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
I want to see how much these ATOs will cost merit/astral-wise, though this probably won't have much of an effect on impatient people >_>
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Originally Posted by Mazey
No they don't.
They follow, as I've said several times now, a large generalisation of the problem. The exact opposite of a subset. And therein lies the issue. |
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Originally Posted by Mazey
I'm not sure why you felt the need to say any of that.
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Originally Posted by Mazey
And what about the fact you're going on and on too?
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Originally Posted by Mazey
No, I don't. I'm a mathematician, not a computer scientist.
I admit, I'm really not sure what you're trying to say there. |
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Originally Posted by Mazey
I suggest that you read that. Yes, trading cards are used as an example, but the issue of being able to trade them is implicitly ignored. It's simple, just work through the proof that's given for yourself. You'll see that trading is never considered, and the packs are all bought by the person in question.
It's just an example to illustrate the problem, it's not an attempt to rigorously analyse trading cards. |
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Originally Posted by Mazey
Again, I suggest you read that book for yourself, as it uses the exact same definition as me.
I suspect you didn't do any more than skim read that book, and assumed it would be to much for me to understand and so I'd just give up. As it happens though, I have to thank you for introducing it, as it supports my position quite nicely. I can never be bothered to find my own sources. |
That is all I have to say about the Coupon Collector's Problem and your take on it.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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I believe just the ATOs and possibly the Catalysts will be sellable.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Didnt they say alls those things would be sellable ont he market? So if you don't get hwat you want, sell them, and buy them when others put them on the market.
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But even with they are, I don't want to buy inf from the Market. (I'm still not comfortable with the idea of the Market selling tradable items at all, although I concede it's better for randomly distributed ATOs to be tradeable than for a player to be stuck with an ATO for an archetype they don't enjoy, or worse, can't use. Actually, if they can't use certain archetypes, they may not have market access, either... yeesh, I'm liking this idea less and less...) So, I won't, even if it means I can't have the Elemental Order costume set, which I do want and would buy on its own.
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You seem to have cared quite a bit.|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Quite frankly, no one but you cares to apply as strict standard to the definition of "Coupon Collector's Problem". At this point you are just tilting at windmills.
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You can say I'm just "tilting at windmills" but, as I say, this is something I do actually care about. What's your excuse?
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| We don't need to be taught about this problem to understand that we don't like paying real money for random virtual items. |
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| You're right, after this post I'll ignore what you say if you get excessively stringent on the problem. |
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| As a long time computer programmer I can simulate, with a high degree of accuracy, the Coupon Collector Problem. No matter what method you might think the game is acting like, the code will obey Coupon Collector Problem definition before presenting the results to the player. |
You can simulate the Coupon Collector's Problem, I suspect you can also simulate the super packs. That doesn't mean they are one and the same.
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| I did. To everyone but you that illustration fits the Super Pack situation. |
To you that illustration fits the super packs. To me it clearly has several deviations. No-one else has given their opinion.
Key deviations being that the boy in example never trades his cards, while trading enhancements is quite possible. And once the boy gets a card, he can always still get it again, while costume parts in the super packs can never be gotten more than once, which effects both costume parts and enhancements.
You say you can make a program to simulate this, so go ahead.
Make one that simulates a boy buying cards which can always duplicate, and where he never trades.
Then make one where the boy can trade, and where some of the cards never duplicate but some do, and further that the boy only wants a sub-set of the cards, not every single one.
And then come back and tell me with a straight face that you didn't have to add extra conditions to the second program.
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Outside a classroom, the Coupon Collector Problem can't exist by your standards. It is impossible to exist in the real world by your standards. Your standards are so precise that it leaves no room for practical application. As such you are not talking about what everyone else is. Like I said, you are arguing theory without realizing it can't exist in the real world by your definition |
When you were learning to program, were you never asked to program something that was essentially useless in the real world but taught a useful lesson? Well, even if you weren't, it's something that done quite often.
And, that said, it's not true that my precise definition has absolutely no real world applications. If the super packs only gave enhancements, and the enhancements were essentually useless unless you had the whole set, and you weren't allowed to trade them but they still duplicated. Then that would be the Coupon Collector's Problem. Sure, that example doesn't exists in the game, but it easily could do. Companies have set things up like that before.
The Coupon Collector's Problem can, and does, exist in the real world, it's rare, but it happens. But so what? It was always a theoretical problem anyway. Why are you so desperate to call this current issue "the Coupon Collector's Problem"? What do you gain from it?
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I say this in the nicest way possible: but who give a flying ****?|
Originally Posted by Mazey
bunch of stuff completely irrelevant to the issue at hand
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The point is players made known that they DO NOT WANT having to pay real money for a chance at a virtual item. The devs heard and are adjusting.
Everything else is irrelevant. I'm glad Snow is dropping it as it's a pointless discussion that sidetracks the REAL issue.
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That made me lol, thanks |
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
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Ease of communication to anyone not being pedantic?
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Originally Posted by Mazey
The Coupon Collector's Problem can, and does, exist in the real world, it's rare, but it happens. But so what? It was always a theoretical problem anyway. Why are you so desperate to call this current issue "the Coupon Collector's Problem"? What do you gain from it?
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How many people do you think had even heard the term "Coupon Collector's Problem" before it was brought up in regard to the super packs?|
Originally Posted by rsclark
Ease of communication to anyone not being pedantic?
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How exactly is using a term almost know-one knows, and using it inaccurately, "ease of communication"?
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*yawn*
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Originally Posted by Mazey
How many people do you think had even heard the term "Coupon Collector's Problem" before it was brought up in regard to the super packs?
How exactly is using a term almost know-one knows, and using it inaccurately, "ease of communication"? |
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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I'm sad that I can't say exactly what I want to say to him. I know I would get mod-smacked until next year for doing so. At this point though, I think I'm going to just put him on ignore for a while.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
I say this in the nicest way possible: but who give a flying ****?
The point is players made known that they DO NOT WANT having to pay real money for a chance at a virtual item. The devs heard and are adjusting. Everything else is irrelevant. I'm glad Snow is dropping it as it's a pointless discussion that sidetracks the REAL issue. |
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Originally Posted by rsclark
Ease of communication to anyone not being pedantic?
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I hope Super Packs never happen, but if they do, I won't be buying them under any circumstances.
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
Never heard about the Coupon Collector's Problem, and don't care about it
either way - afaic, all Mazey and Snow are doing is having a pointless whizfest
that constitutes little more than an extended threadjack.
What I *am* reading about is a potential CoH GAME Problem in the works...
Simply put:
Random + Exclusive + RL Money == BAD (it really IS that simple)
Change any of those 3 variables (to: Chosen OR Inclusive OR Non-RL Money)
and you have something that is potentially workable and GOOD.
Otherwise, No -- Hell NO.
I, for one, am exceedingly glad that Zwill has raised the issue, and I'm also
glad that the Devs are pulling their heads out of the sand long enough to
seriously consider the uproar.
I truly hope that in the end, Common Sense will win the day.
Regards,
4
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
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Interesting. |
Originally Posted by rsclark
Ease of communication to anyone not being pedantic?
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If someone you asked for directions said the place you were looking for was a stones throw down yonder and someone else said it was exactly 1 mile down a road and you could expect to find it at the intersection there which would be better ?
And if the person who gave the very precise directions was completely wrong ?
Because that is what happened here. The only communication that was made easier was the idea you should be upset about the super packs. Which was very funny because the people perpetrating the misrepresentation of the situation were upset about NcSoft using manipulative tactics on them.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
In the interest of making this information more readily available (the other thread , while a great conversation, is nearing 1300 posts), I'm going to summarize some details we've shared since the Pummit regarding Super Packs, as well as let you in on the results of our continuing internal discussions.
First to recap:
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Thanks for the news, Zwil. This is certainly a substantial improvement. I'd still prefer to eliminate the lottery entirely, but (assuming you do something like what Samuel_Tow suggested and grant independent access to the costumes as well) this is probably the next best option.
That said, I'm still extremely opposed to selling enhancements exclusively for real world money, and it looks like the Store Bought quasi-IOs aren't getting the Merit treatment. I also take a very dim view of any lottery that won't actually publish the odds of winning. So while I'm very appreciative of the changes you've made here, this system is still a net negative for me. Sorry.
-D
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Just stumbled onto this thread, going to read it and return with a more substantial post later.
First glance is that it solves all of the problems I had except the tradeability!
However, not having items that you can directly buy be directly tradeable is important!
Great work on this, Zwillinger and everyone!
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Well, firstly, thanks for being civil, I appreciate that.|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
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People don't want to pay real money for a gamble on virtual items. However it goes deeper than that. The packs were made to entice more money from VIPs than their subscription. They were designed to make players buy what they weren't buying before: consumable items. Zwillinger said as much: |
As a player myself, I have to say I like the idea of having something I can spend points on on a regular basis, and if there's a "pack" of stuff that I can just dump points into, a perk for being a vip, that nets me stuff I WOULD want, like costume parts or costume change emotes or auras or enhancements, or temporary powers like the self-rez or the instacast mission teleporter, that would be great. but I can't visualize them restricting the number of those I can purchase weekly, which would be the only way to avoid the ccg state and prevent me from exhausting its value as a point sink real fast.
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The problem is that the consumables aren't incentive enough for players to buy them. So they targeted VIPs with items they wanted to get (ATOs and costumes) and put them in with the consumables. Players called them out on it. I first started computer programming in 1982. I've developed computer programs that are similar to the Super Packs. I've spent thousands of dollars on collectible card games. I don't really have to assume anything as experience has provided lessons as to what will happen. From those lessons, I know that I will avoid the packs. From those lessons, I know what will happen to others that will go after the items in the packs. |
I've no doubt in my mind that these super packs will take that into account. They'll probably release the packs as they are, let people collect a few, then after a while see if the response was good and offer a way to purchase single parts at elevated prices, essentially the same way you can go to a local comic shop and purchase the magic singles you want (if they're in stock).
the upside is you don't have to worry about inflation of demand, nor storage requirements (lol), nor limited supply.
you could have it all
My empire of dirt
I will let you down
I will make you <3
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I see the opposite happening. If the packs don't sell enough for them, they will put even more wanted items in them to further try to get people to buy the stuff they don't want. In other words they'll put the stuff they know will sell, to try to move the stuff they know won't sell. Actually the packs are already an example of that.|
Originally Posted by Party_Kake
I've no doubt in my mind that these super packs will take that into account. They'll probably release the packs as they are, let people collect a few, then after a while see if the response was good and offer a way to purchase single parts at elevated prices, essentially the same way you can go to a local comic shop and purchase the magic singles you want (if they're in stock).
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Originally Posted by Party_Kake
the upside is you don't have to worry about inflation of demand, nor storage requirements (lol), nor limited supply.
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I still think the best thing to do with costumes in super packs, and costumes for Tier 9 VIPs, is keep them in those slots exclusively for a while as a preview or what ever, then cycle them out, put them on a store and put new costume pieces in Tier 9 or in the packs. That way those who don't have Tier 9 or want to buy the packs can get them eventually, while those that have Tier 9 or will buy the packs, can still get them sooner and have their fun faster etc.
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