Deus_Otiosus

Interesting.

Now my curiosity is peaked to find out where that margin is.


Although as others have mentioned my testing was done with out any Interface slotted.




Thanks for the heads up on this, and from Draeth Darkstar, I might come out of hiatus a bit to test the pets out again.

Maybe next week or two, 5 month old baby makes free time sparse.

There is a huge difference in both directions.

The Tank will have significantly better mitigation, incarnate softcap is not out of reach and standard softcap is a cakewalk.

You can build for 3K to 3100 HP before using OWTS on the Tanker, OWTS will let you hit the Tanker HP Cap while it is active.

You're resistances will be better across the board, you can sit around 50% SM/L and with some slotting you can hit 90% with OWTS active.


The Brute will have better damage output across the board (although I'm not sure how close/far Shield Charge is for the two), but now that WM is available to Scrappers any build that will be SD is simply better on a Scrapper.

I rerolled my WM/SD Brute as a WM/SD Scrapper specifically because of the power of AAO & SC on the Scrapper and the comparably smaller and less significant mitigation gained by the Brute version in comparison.



BS is great for leveling, but once you are softcapped the added mitigation from all of the KD shines.

Crowd Control alone is enough for me to go WM over BS.

As Auroxis said you can cap with Resilient Alpha, 3% Shield Wall Unique & Barrier.


However the Tanker ATO proc will get you there regularly enough that I would go Cardiac instead of Resilient and would most likely not bother with the Shield Wall unique.

Fire Shield, Tough, T4 Cardiac Core & Barrier alone will get you to 81.9% (assumes 4 piece Reactive Armors in those toggles).


I'm not sure why they didn't give the Tanker set the same DEF bonus as the Scrapper & Brute sets, although the Tanker proc looks to have some great potential, especially for a power-set like FA.

FE also lasts twice as long.

You think my StJ/SD Scrapper that can CU for 800-1K damage with T4 musculature while solo before criticals needs more special benefits?

Sure, I'll buy that. More please.

Pretty much this.

You're asking a lot from the player, if they are expected to carry enough orange inspirations to get them to 90% res cap from 0%, or 22-24% SM/L Res and 0% to everything else.

The fight lasts longer then one minute, and your team either has the chops to down the first handful of true problem. Even if you fill your entire tray and forego green insps, you can still only carry 20 of them and pull that off for about 2 minutes.


Ela has one of the better resistance profiles available to Tankers, its a very different story starting with base 0% resistance to all exotic damage types.


Player error certainly counts for a lot, but these are still 8 L54 AVs packing debuffs, and some hard hitting AoE powers.

Which boils it down to the options I already gave. A support (especially Corr) heavy team or a team comprised of highly slotted incarnates (which is basically alternative support).


Player tactics do count a lot as well.

Summoning lore pets, buffing and then keeping your team wide destiny use staggered to maximize benefits of the first 30s of each destiny buff should see any team capable of it, melting the FP in a minute or two maximum.


I've done it leading a team of all VEATs.

Under +damage buffs Scrappers always out damage Brutes.

There was a point under the old Damage cap that fulcrum shift would allow a Brute to do more than a Scrapper.

But for every other time in the game, under +damage buffs, the Scrapper wins - and the old Brute damage cap is gone.



Also, the old reasons for Fury being changed have nothing to do with a new proc.

This proc should add something to the Brute AT.

Tankers are about to get much tougher from their proc, Scrappers are going to increase their DPS & random burst damage from theirs and the Brute proc is apparently doing nothing at all.

1) "Most Brutes" doesn't usually include a purely defense based Brute on a PUG (SD, SR, EA). It's doable, but its rougher. You'll see a lot of Invulns, Stones (most PUGs want Stone, not required), Ela, etc.

2) The typical load out that sees "Brutes" doing this is really the 6-7 corrs that are there. Buffs, Debuffs, ST/AoE Damage and Scourge - they bring it all. The Corrs do all of the heavy lifting, the Brute's job is to clump things together and try not to die.


Incarnate powers can reduce the need for #2, and the team was relatively well balanced in theory, in reality he had Incarnate softcapped defenses and therefore gained very little from the +DEF & -To Hit from the VEAT, the Storm, the Cold & the Time.

Correct.

There is a very good chance that the provocative part is not actually aimed at you.


Do you know any teen boys? You might try running miss horny green elf by them.

Most is not that important when you are talking about 32 vs. 40 targets, or even 24 vs. 40 targets.

Outside of a few very specific scenarios, like farming or the rooftops in the ITF, its pretty rare you will actually have 40 targets.

Also:

Void radial can hit up to 32 enemies, requires no target and has arguably the most powerful special effect of any Judgement power.

-50% Damage to all of those targets for 30s, 50 foot radius.


It also has a 2.5s cast time, and it doesn't hit targets any easier than Pyronic (1s cast) and Void (50ft radius PBAoE that requires no enemy to target).


Only Pyronic & Vorpal's DoTs have a high (80%) chance, the rest all do a bit more damage, but only have a 20% chance to proc.

Its possibly due to the proliferation of reactive interface, its like having Rain of Fire with no way to keep the mobs in it.

Do you think there are any specific improvements that could be made to Gauntlet that would allow it to be clearly an advantage in terms of generating AoE threat (without it being what I usually call "auto-win" aggro*)?

I know its not highly regarded, but keep in mind Brutes with sets like DM, Energy Melee, etc. are fairly limited in their AoE threat generation and would have to rely at best on their auras 9which are typically 8ft and 10 targets).

So I think improving how gauntlet functions would be the first step, as this should be a relatively easy fix and is also the Tanker's inherent.



*I dislike auto-win aggro, I dislike when ATs that can hold threat make the game completely safe. Its one of the reasons I'm against increasing aggro caps for Tankers or any AT.

I think taunt mechanics in this game are too strong to begin with or other effects like healing/debuffs need to be regarded higher on threat generation. Obviously at this stage in the game and the archaic code of the threat system being what it is, its probably a moot point.

However my opinion is that characters intended to hold aggro should have to work at it a bit rather than have it be an instant auto-lockdown imo. This is why we are both stuck in tank & spank for most of the game and then forced to jump through hoops in incarnate trials (because the devs need to add challenge while avoiding static fights which have long been complained about, and quite frankly things like the power of threat mechanics make it difficult to make challenging boss encounters - hence we get special mechanics).

Reading it over, I realize I misread what you wrote.

Sorry about that.

Also, AAO for Brutes uses the Tanker +damage bonus. That is to say in addition to all of your points Brutes also get a lower overall +damage bonus out of AAO than Scrappers do. (+55% vs. +68.75%)




At the OP:

Anytime you can squeeze in a lot of +damage bonuses (like SD, or +damage bonus focused SR IO builds, etc) or Musculature Alpha, or if your primary has a persistent Damage bonus - Scrappers will generally pull ahead by a considerable margin in terms of top end damage dealing.

If those things are not true, and you are playing a primary without a persistent damage boost, or can't fit musculature into the build, etc. Brutes will get closer in terms of damage dealing and at that point you will want to choose which AT you prefer stylistically and if you'd rather have a bit more damage or a bit more survivability.

While all secondary sets are technically better on Brutes in terms of mitigation, you really want to consider if the mitigation is worth what the build loses overall.

For example, SD is a hands down a win for a Scrapper in terms of overall value of mitigation & damage dealing (even though the Brute has more HP, and can hit something like 2800 with OWTS running). Something like Katana/WP would probably be a better overall combination on a Brute (the Brute still does less damage, but now the mitigation advantage shines enough to make the loss of damage more worthwhile).



I think Invuln, WP & Ela are probably my top three picks for Brute secondaries that make out very well in terms of mitigation value gained (gained beyond what the Scrapper build is capable of) vs. damage dealing lost* (lost by not going Scrapper).

*Although WP & Ela having no endurance concerns are prime candidates to make Musculature alpha work, going Spiritual on the other hand will see the Brute advantage pull ahead again.

I think the Defense sets shine much better on Scrappers, who can try and work in +damage bonuses to greater effect (Iggy posted an SR build with over +40% damage bonuses from IO sets), and especially if they can squeeze in musculature alpha - so SD, EA and SR.



In terms of Primaries, Claws is a special case and is so close for the two of these ATs that I would decide by secondary or personal AT preference.

DM I consider better for a Scrapper due to Soul Drain's persistent damage boost and its limited AoE capabilities forcing a Brute to work a bit harder to generate AoE aggro. But if your intent is a hardcore survivability build like DM/Invuln, then that pairing would go to the Brute (vs. DM/SD which goes to the Scrapper).

Dual Blades, KM & Elm are hands down better on Scrappers by far. I highly recommend going Scrapper on these sets.

Most of the sets that just use a typical build up would see me choose AT depending on secondary.



*Lastly, if you have no intention of a top end build investment I would say the differences between them will come down more to style and in some ways their roles on teams.

Again, its not your ideas I have a problem with. It's your attitude, and the way that you approach it.

Which is to say you seem to automatically go into EVERYONE BUT ME IS OBVIOUSLY AN IDIOT AND I WILL NOT LISTEN TO ANY REASON OR LOGIC TO THE CONTRARY.

That's your mode.

It would actually be easier to get to your ideas if they weren't wrapped up in the effective equivalent of internet shouting.


That's not what I'm saying.

I'm saying the freedom model basically exists to get new players interested in the game, hopefully they will either spend money while they are here or even better become full subscribers.

My point is making a system that is already in place, more attractive, might attract customers interested in PvP. Some of them might even be PvE players who are PvP curious and would play if it didn't seem like an unbalanced system with a terrible reward mechanic implementation.

Some PvE players will never play PvP, no problem. Some might.


I'm not suggesting the devs sell PvP gear that is awesome and people want to buy it, I'm just suggesting that increasing the overall available game experience by having more to offer (like a robust PvP system, a robust PvE system, and Endgame, etc) is a potential way to drum up some business.


Much in the way that you need to be a sub to earn EMP & Astrals, my idea would be that you would need be a sub to earn PvP merits.


Its not the ideas, its the communication mechanism.

Do you shout in your co-workers faces at the very start of a dialogue? How about your family?

Random shopkeepers? Do you stuff pictures in their face and fly off the handle, resorting to derogatory digs the instant you think they don't understand you?

Do you automatically assume that subtle ideas are lost on everyone else in the world, except for you?

Do you do those things in your life and consider that being honest and forthright? Do you think that is a healthy dialogue?


Who are some people?

You are having this conversation with me. Did you, after 1 post, automatically assume any and all subtlety would be lost on me and therefore you should most certainly go to the diametric opposite of the spectrum and launch into screaming ranting hyperbole mode?

IO mitigation is primarily Defense.


Tankers also benefit from building for Defense as well.

What do they give up to get that extra mitigation above their SO baseline?

Nothing, just like the Scrappers and Brutes give up nothing.


So what you have is all three ATs, with the Tanker still on top for mitigation by a large margin. You can refer to my WP example to a simplistic view of how that works.

The PvP sets are most comparable to purple sets.

They have bonuses that scale down, like purples and they cost upwards of 50 to 70 emp merits per recipie at the Empyrean Store.

They can not be bought at the Astral store. The Developers have purposefully given them a rarity and a value equal to Purple sets.


On the market. Only the uniques really have any value off market.

Most of them have on market values comparable to other sets (which would go down if their supply was comparable to those sets).

A few are more expensive, because they have nice bonuses in the right places, off the top of my head:

• Panaca for the 7.5 Rech (and there is no purple healing set to compete with)

• Shield Wall for the 2.25% HP bonus (and there is no purple DEF set to compete with)

Pretty sure Posi, and I think it was Synpase in one of the more recent (think last month or so) Ustream chats speaking how they would/are considering changes to PvP - but the goal would be no more fiddling.

The goal would be to make a decent overhaul to improve the experience.

The Devs are there, and the thought is at least there.


My point was that you constantly take digs at the devs in this and many other threads, you often come off as ranting and railing against them (not honest, blunt or forthright like you seem to think).



My point was not to encourage pay to win, I'm against pay to win.

My point was that is that freedom and the paragon market has as one of its goals the generation of revenue.

One of the ways it does this is by attracting new players and luring back former players, and providing value in the store for things they want.

PvP as an area is neglected and undeveloped. There is a base of MMO fans that enjoy PvP and I think there is potential there to cultivate this customer base, hopefully they will also spend money in the store while they are here.


[QUOTE=Hyperstrike;4038600]
Oh yeah. I'm sure. See where I talked about "pay to win"?


Evidence to support your numbers?

More People interested in pvp could see more players total, adding to the 70k.

But you seem to have an adversarial position of PvP players vs. PvE players, rather than seeing them as they should be seen "Potential customers".




[QUOTE=Hyperstrike;4038600]
Maybe. I always have to admit it's a possibility.
However vanishingly small the likelihood of that is.


[QUOTE=Hyperstrike;4038600]
And thus, you've donned an even MORE narrow pair of blinkers.

One of the reasons I need to be this blunt and forthright in the first place is because anything put forth with subtlety and tact is completely missed and misinterpreted.

You don't come off as blunt and forthright.

You come off as bombastic, negative and with an unnecessary need to use caps lock.

Unless you mean you need to type this way, because you are describing your own failings at having a discussion and being able to get someone to see your points without putting them all in caps.


If you're really serious, I'd ask you to go back and take a look at how our exchange went.

You posted something, I disagree with it, and then you replied with a post full of caps, and some nonsense with Kevin Spacey.

If you really think this is me not wanting a healthy dialogue, you might want to review your way of presenting your ideas in posts.

Because if you can honestly tell me that post #41 is your idea of a healthy dialogue, and that you are simply being "blunt and forthright" than I think you are suffering from some kind of cognitive distortion.




Other MMOs have PvP that is relatively balanced. Its not impossible.

People are asking if a combo is better on one or the other, not always which one does more damage.

More damage, goes to the Scrapper. Include musculature, and the Scrapper pulls ahead further.

A lot of things you read aren't based on numbers either. A lot of people just "feel" stuff.

Which is pretty useless as a gauge.

Brutes are damage dealers, they have 12% HP advantage over scrappers. For that advantage they give up consistent damage output as Fury can be affected by encounter design or simply not enough enemies or too slow of a pace.


Its very hard to test this, and almost no one does.

Every time you see Brutes compared to Scrappers you will see the Brute in the optimal permanent 80% Fury Scenario. (Even then equivalent Scrapper builds outdamage them)

Every time you see Brutes compared to Tankers you will see the Brute in the optimal permanent res cap buffed scenario. (Even then equivalent Tanker builds out mitigate them)

They have a higher resistance cap, but they don't actually have a higher base resistance so for some sets - SR, WP, SD & EA for example, the higher cap is all but irrelevant. You will not be playing with capped resistances, although you can hit it from time to time.

Other sets gain benefit from the higher res cap in their specialty like FA, which makes out OK if you like farming and Ela which makes out well in the endgame. Invuln Brutes generally don't get past the 75% SM/L res mark without buffs, but they are close enough that its an advantage.


They both have the same cap, but they have different base resistances.

Here's a quick (purposefully simplistic) side by side comparison of what an average WP Scrapper, Brute and Tanker will look like - including a rough guesstimate of the effect of IO bonuses (primarily on +HP):

WP Scrapper
2200 HP
50% SM/L Res
90-100 HP/S Regen
Softcapped to SM/L DEF
About 35-40 ENE/NEG/FIRE/COLD DEF

WP Brute
2600 HP
50% SM/L Res
100-115 HP/S
Softcapped to SM/L DEF
About 35-40 ENE/NEG/FIRE/COLD DEF

WP Tanker
3000-3100 HP
71% SM/L Res
120-130 HP/S
Softcapped to SM/L/ENE/NEG/FIRE/COLD


So if you look, you will see that the Brute is about Halfway between the Tanker in terms of HP, but basically the same as a Scrapper in every other area.

However if you even just include SM/L RES and nothing else, the Tanker's effective HP pool pulls away even further (because a 1000 HP SM/L attack that lands only does 290 damage to Tanker, vs doing 500 vs. the Brute.


This doesn't even count the advantage of higher BASE DEF in the build, allowing for the Tanker to actually work in more +HP bonues, more +rech bonuses easier as well as simply having better coverage vs. all damage types.




If by many, you mean yourself, then sure.

Because you certainly do hate them.


You hate Tankers, you hate being the biggest, hardest to kill mitigation specialist in the game. You hate giving up damage potential to be harder to kill vs. anything that inst a special mechanic.


That's because Stalkers actually have real issues, unlike the Tanker AT.

Again, I do trials every night and I see at least 2 to 8 tankers in every league I'm in.

I see maybe 1 stalker in every 3 or 4 leagues I join.


No only Tanker players who are convinced that their AT deserves special treatment get this turnout from me.

You know, the ones that think Tankers should have the same (or more!) mitigation than now and do damage on par with damage dealers because of some mary sue they loved when they were reading comics as a kid.

I have nothing against the Tanker AT itself. Neither do my friends who play Tankers, they don't seem to hate Tankers like you do.







Oh yeah, still waiting for you to tell me:


How much of the irrelevant mitigation (your words) are you willing to give up in order to deal more damage?



The day you answer that question honestly is the day I can start considering to take you seriously.

You can buy sets in the store now that do the same.

As they've already added some of the better sets going, I think we will just see more of this.

So what again is the issue with PvP Sets exemping down?

And the PvP IO set bonuses for PvE are not subjective compared to Purples. They are not as good as purple sets, if they were you would see higher prices for them than we do now.

A handful of very specific bonuses are better than a handful of tiny counterparts, for example the +HP bonus in SW vs. the +HP bonus in LoTG.

Then other sets for PvE are not even worth looking at, the TAoE set is worse than Posi Blast.

And Posi pretty much sucks, it just happens to be the only halfway decent option that isn't Ragnarok.



Incapable, really?

Why are you playing a game where you feel the current dev team, which is doing new and creative things IMO, is unable to accomplish this feat of balancing PvP?

If you think the developers of the game you play suck so bad, you might want to move on in life.


PvP players are notoriously some of the most high end build focused players in MMOs.

That's the market segment that will spend any amount of INF, and any amount of real cash if you let them, to totally pimp their builds out.


So just so we are clear - those players, could be made to be very profitable.

That's not wasted labor.


Step 1, anyone in TF mode can not earn PvP merits.

Step 2, there is no step 2.


If someone is actively playing 10 accounts at once and killing them-self, yeah I don't we need to worry about Mr. 1 in 50,000 edge-case.



We are all farming reward merits and incarnate merits now. This is dev sanctioned, it is time gated.

This is doable.



Maybe you're just unable to see past your own bombastic negativity?




I ignored the rest of your post, because you don't seem to be able to have a discussion like a grown up.

HI CAPS!!! :d

The set bonuses exemping like purples isn't a problem for pve because most of the pvp sets have crappier bonuses than purples do for pve builds.

Most of the PvP sets do not have very good bonuses for PvE.

And the most sought after PvP unique, the Gladiator Unique has all of its true value wrapped up in 3% DEF for 2 to 2.5 billion.

The Steadfast Unique provides the same bonus for about 15 to 30 million.


I personally think the devs should shut down PvP AFK farming by actually making the system for earning PvPs through actual PvP more attractive.

While the attractiveness of PvP to PvE players is a whole other issue, I think that if they implemented a method to track real kills vs. farming kills perhaps using MARTy, they should implement a method of earning PvP merits similar to Empyrean merits.

I think most of the list of Empyrean and Astral purchasable items should have a near equivalent version for PvP merit vendors.

Except PvP IOs would be slightly cheaper at the PvP vendors, and standard recipies would slightly more expensive.


I'd like to see the devs give real value to the people who actually do want to PvP and make the system for drops attractive to them, unlike the nightmare it is now where going AFK for 18-20 hours and farming yourself is the best method.

Their mitigation is not close to tankers.

30 minutes in mids will show you this.


Their damage does not exceed scrappers.

If you have a Brute and Scrapper using equivalent powersets, and the Brute is out-damaging you - its very likely that your build sucks.

Hint: Add persistent +damage bonuses. Musculature is a good start.


They're already midway between the two.



Last time you looked you must have had blinders on.

There is one Brute build out damaging Scrapper builds.

One build only.

SS/FA/Soul.

When Scrappers get SS, they will out-damage the Brute version. It won't even be a contest.

The Truth is that no matter how you present your case, Tankers still have much higher base mitigation advantages.

Its there, it exists, no one can deny the numbers.


So you are saying those advantages are not relevant to 95% of the game.


OK, I'm listening.


Then how much of that mitigation, that you say is not relevant, are you willing to cut down so Tankers can deal more damage as you would like them to?


Are you willing to see Tanker base DEF, base RES and base HP all come down from being 25% higher than a Brute to being say, only 10% higher? And then, see Tankers get an increase in damage potential?