Aside from concept, why use any judgement besides Ion for damage?
By
Black Zot,
Posted on: 2011-12-21 20:25 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Ion takes a relatively long time to animate, but importantly it still can re-target NPCs that it has already struck. They've mostly fixed it so that it no longer does bonus damage to them, but this means that it can waste jumps, reducing its effective target cap. Ion also has the compelling ability to aggro as many as several more spawns than you were actually currently fighting, if there happens to be a bridge of runners for it to leap across. In target rich environments, ion is not guaranteed to hit any of the targets you want it to. I could go on.
Seems to me that the selling point of ion, aside from the fact that it is way cool, is its ease of use. All you have to do is target something that won't die in the next two and a half seconds and you're golden. The only easier judgements than that are pyronic, where it doesn't even matter if the target dies, and void which of course requires you to be in the middle of things. So actually, ion is sort of in the middle in terms of ease of use, heh. But it is easy to use and it is fun to use.
The other consideration would be secondary effect. Ion drains endurance, eh, that can be pretty good. Void is better, that damage debuff is massive. Pyronic... well it animates fast and is easy to use! The only judgement that actually seems like a comparative stinker to me is cryonic, and mainly because there is a radically better cone-based judgement out now.
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First, Ion isn't torpedoed by a dead target anymore- unless the target explodes or disappears upon death, leaving no corpse behind. Second, Vorpal is insanely frustrating for me to use - 9 times out of 10 I get hit by a lag spike and fire it in the wrong direction. But Vorpal isn't terrible if you can line up perfectly (which is a problem if I want to fire it from afar).
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Seems to me that the selling point of ion, aside from the fact that it is way cool, is its ease of use. All you have to do is target something that won't die in the next two and a half seconds and you're golden. The only easier judgements than that are pyronic, where it doesn't even matter if the target dies, and void which of course requires you to be in the middle of things. So actually, ion is sort of in the middle in terms of ease of use, heh. But it is easy to use and it is fun to use.
The other consideration would be secondary effect. Ion drains endurance, eh, that can be pretty good. Void is better, that damage debuff is massive. Pyronic... well it animates fast and is easy to use! The only judgement that actually seems like a comparative stinker to me is cryonic, and mainly because there is a radically better cone-based judgement out now. |
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Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
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Does that answer your question? |
Originally Posted by Ultimus
1) It hits the same number of targets as Vorpal Radial
2) The way it hits targets is it chains meaning unlike a cone it can't hit two to three spawns at once unless they're clustered up 3) It deals less damage than Pyronic and Vorpal |
Plus, Ion's secondary effects - end drain and an unreliable hold - are generally less useful than Void's damage debuff or Vorpal's defense buff. And as mentioned, it is tied with Vorpal for the slowest-casting.
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Most is not that important when you are talking about 32 vs. 40 targets, or even 24 vs. 40 targets.|
Originally Posted by Ultimus
1) It hits the most targets
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Outside of a few very specific scenarios, like farming or the rooftops in the ITF, its pretty rare you will actually have 40 targets.
Also:
Void radial can hit up to 32 enemies, requires no target and has arguably the most powerful special effect of any Judgement power.
-50% Damage to all of those targets for 30s, 50 foot radius.
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Originally Posted by Ultimus
2) The way it hits targets is it chains meaning unlike a cone it can spread much easier
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Originally Posted by Ultimus
3) It deals the same damage as the other judgements
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No because my in game numbers are showing differently:|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
Does that answer your question?
Plus, Ion's secondary effects - end drain and an unreliable hold - are generally less useful than Void's damage debuff or Vorpal's defense buff. And as mentioned, it is tied with Vorpal for the slowest-casting. |
Both have a 428.36 damage,
Ion has a 20% chance of an extra 160.63 dmg
Pyronic is 80% chance per tick of an extra 21.42 damage X 6 or 128.52
Ion total damage is 588.99 and Pyronic is 556.88...
Yes, if Ion procs its crit damage, it will do more damage than if Pyronic does all its ticks. But Pyronic's average damage is higher. The Pyronic DoT is worth about twice as much as the Ion crit proc, because it is so much more likely to happen. 20% <<< 80%
I went with Void on my Rad/Fire/Mace blaster because it's one more PBAoE in a PBAoE heavy toon and it won't crash my end bar and drop my toggles like Atomic Blast.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
1) Target two or even three spawns with T4 (which one? matter of taste) Vorpal, either in line or facing between them
2) Unleash your appropriately colored Space Time Face Kick
3) MAXIMUM TROLLING
This won't work with all toons/playstyles and excessive lag will cramp its style badly. (but what won't it cramp?) But when it is appropriate it's freaking glorious.
I've never seen Vorpal before. Or at least I haven't noticed anyone using it. Most people go for Ion (and man, does it look cool).
I'm introducing myself to incarnates and working my way to Judgement. Could anyone upload a short video of Vorpal for me?
EDIT: Found it. I wants it.
@False Fiction - Virtue / Defiant
Current projects - [Glaciologist - Ill/Cold Troller] [Cloudshaper - Storm/Dark Def] [Harald Wartooth - Elec/Psi Domi]
Aside from concept, why play anything besides a ss/fire brute?
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Pyronic has the fastest animation (fireball animation) and the Core branch on average does more damage than other cores.|
Originally Posted by Ultimus
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Radial Void has -50% dmg which adds a lot of survivability.
Ion is best for very scattered enemies and unusually large groups.
It's true that Cryonic and Vorpal are lackluster by comparison, though.
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Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
Aside from concept, why play anything besides a ss/fire brute?
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Correct.|
Originally Posted by Laevateinn
It's true that Cryonic
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| and Vorpal |
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| are lackluster by comparison, though. |
My Rad/Kin Corruptor likes stacking Void's -damage with Fulcrum Shift's, and then using Siphon Power on the surviving EB/AV that happened to live through the next AoE. They're so cute when they think they get to deal (significant) damage.
Pyronic Radial's stun has me considering it for my Dominator instead of going Core.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Originally Posted by Siolfir
My Rad/Kin Corruptor likes stacking Void's -damage with Fulcrum Shift's, and then using Siphon Power on the surviving EB/AV that happened to live through the next AoE. They're so cute when they think they get to deal (significant) damage.
Pyronic Radial's stun has me considering it for my Dominator instead of going Core. |
I have a cold/sonic that is looking forward to having cryonic.
First, because it actually does damage.
Second, because after the Ice Storm at long range crunches their resistance, it does a LOT of damage.
Cryonic is best at long range, by a wide margin, just like all the cones.
I also really like my Judgements to be thematically appropriate.
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Dude this is not how math works. You're only comparing the powers at their maximum damage. Which is only 1 in 5 shots for Ion so that's not a fair comparison.|
Originally Posted by Ultimus
No because my in game numbers are showing differently:
Both have a 428.36 damage, Ion has a 20% chance of an extra 160.63 dmg Pyronic is 80% chance per tick of an extra 21.42 damage X 6 or 128.52 Ion total damage is 588.99 and Pyronic is 556.88... |
+160.63 damage at 20% chance means on average it only adds 32.126 damage. That's 160.63/5. Or in other words, 20% of the time you do +160.63 and 80% of the time you do +0.
Ion Core does 460.486, not 588.99. It would only do 588.99 if the bonus damage was 100%. Also, Pyronic does 531.176.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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My Sonic/Cold and Ice/Rad Corruptors took Cryonic for theme, but the title of the thread excludes conceptual reasons.
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Originally Posted by mauk2
I have a cold/sonic that is looking forward to having cryonic.
First, because it actually does damage. Second, because after the Ice Storm at long range crunches their resistance, it does a LOT of damage. Cryonic is best at long range, by a wide margin, just like all the cones. I also really like my Judgements to be thematically appropriate. |
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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But math is hard!
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Dude this is not how math works. You're only comparing the powers at their maximum damage. Which is only 1 in 5 shots for Ion so that's not a fair comparison.
+160.63 damage at 20% chance means on average it only adds 32.126 damage. That's 160.63/5. Or in other words, 20% of the time you do +160.63 and 80% of the time you do +0. Ion Core does 460.486, not 588.99. It would only do 588.99 if the bonus damage was 100%. Also, Pyronic does 531.176. |
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Hmm Cryonic doesn't seem to get any love here. Meh.
I took it with my Assault Rifle blaster to fit with my cone like approach to battles (Full Auto and such) and it works great! What I didn't expect but was pleasantly surprised with is Cryonic does critical damage quite a bit. Hard to ignore critical damage.... but anyway Ion IS good. Yep that's true... would I prefer it over Cryonic on my Assualt Rifle?.. no. Cryonic is exactly what I wanted for that blaster.
Edit: Oh and if you want holds you can do that too with Cryonic Radial Final.
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If your target dies before the power hits. It's wasted.
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Originally Posted by Ultimus
1) It hits the most targets
2) The way it hits targets is it chains meaning unlike a cone it can spread much easier 3) It deals the same damage as the other judgements |
"Sorry bucko, but CoH and CoV are the same game." -BackAlleyBrawler
"Silly villain, CoX is for Heroes!" -Saicho
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Also: Void radial can hit up to 32 enemies, requires no target and has arguably the most powerful special effect of any Judgement power. -50% Damage to all of those targets for 30s, 50 foot radius. |
Slight derailment: I was wondering if anyone could confirm how -damage effects interact with resistance caps? I'm assuming that even if I am at the resistance cap to a certain damage type and I apply a -damage effect it will decrease the damage from incoming attacks. I feel like it should but I'm not sure how exactly.
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Cryonic is great for ranged characters. A good thing about Cryonic Core is that it has a max targets of 32 (Equal to the Radial side) while Pyronic/Void Core has 24.
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Originally Posted by Celestial Might
Hmm Cryonic doesn't seem to get any love here. Meh.
I took it with my Assault Rifle blaster to fit with my cone like approach to battles (Full Auto and such) and it works great! What I didn't expect but was pleasantly surprised with is Cryonic does critical damage quite a bit. Hard to ignore critical damage.... but anyway Ion IS good. Yep that's true... would I prefer it over Cryonic on my Assualt Rifle?.. no. Cryonic is exactly what I wanted for that blaster. Edit: Oh and if you want holds you can do that too with Cryonic Radial Final. |
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You are correct.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Slight derailment: I was wondering if anyone could confirm how -damage effects interact with resistance caps? I'm assuming that even if I am at the resistance cap to a certain damage type and I apply a -damage effect it will decrease the damage from incoming attacks. I feel like it should but I'm not sure how exactly.
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Example:
Pure energy attack dealing 1000 damage hits your Electric Armor Brute who has 90% resistance. Your Brute takes 100 damage.
You use Void for -50% damage. Since -damage effects are resisted by the target's damage resistance* and the purple patch affects everything the mobs aren't doing to themselves, we'll assume the mob is even-con and has 20% energy resistance. This means it's a -40% net effect.
The next energy attack comes in from the mob; it now deals 600 damage due to the -damage. Your Brute takes 60.
* - which means you can do some really fun things with -resistance effects and THEN -damage effects
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Because on some builds you don't want a lot of aggro.
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But if it kills them, then where is the aggro coming from?
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Originally Posted by ChaosAngelGeno
Because on some builds you don't want a lot of aggro.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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1) It hits the most targets
2) The way it hits targets is it chains meaning unlike a cone it can spread much easier
3) It deals the same damage as the other judgements