It helps you build up faster, though. That's not "worthless", although certainly not as valuable as it could've been.
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I can jump into a large spawn and be at 80 fury in less then 10 seconds... maybe even 5 (I would have to go time it).|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
It helps you build up faster, though. That's not "worthless", although certainly not as valuable as it could've been.
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The point is you can slot a regular damage proc and it will deal that much more damage.
Also any villain brute with the alignment power will also see this as completely useless.
Comparing to a couple of the other ATO procs:
Scrappers
Their ATO proc increases their critical attack rate. (I don't know the number will have to go onto test to see)
Tankers
Tankers need a bit of help, and I understand why they get a good ATO...
Tankers ATO increases their resistance to *EVERYTHING* by 20%, thats a HUGE chunk. It has a fairly high proc rate with a duration of 20 seconds so it can easily be made perma.
Stalker ATO
This one puts you into a Hidden state.
Soldier of Arachnos ATO
This one does a -DMG effect and Terrorize effect.
Other ATO's
Do a proc similar to the purple procs higher chance and higher damage.
Yes, it is definitely worth less than other ATO procs, and even than normal IOs in most situations. "Worth less" is not the same as "worthless" though. At low levels, or on a team with multiple brutes/tanks sharing the aggro, it'll be at least worth something.
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Its only 10% at lower levels when upgraded it only works at 15%.|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
Yes, it is definitely worth less than other ATO procs, and even than normal IOs in most situations. "Worth less" is not the same as "worthless" though. At low levels, or on a team with multiple brutes/tanks sharing the aggro, it'll be at least worth something.
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Also if you read Arcanaville's quote the majority of fury generation comes from being attacked...
The ATO only effects attacks you make
Quote:
Quoting to emphasize... you cannot get more then 5 fury per attack you make.
| That's the number of points of fury you gain per attack, with two limits: you cannot get credit for more than 10 attacks per second (essentially an irrelevant limit) and you cannot get more than five points of fury per attack even if fury is zero (the formula would imply 12.5 points of fury per attack when the fury is zero). |
Let me break it down even further:
0 Fury: -- No change, you cannot generate more then 5 fury per attack.
10 fury -- No change, you cannot generate more then 5 fury per attack
20 Fury -- No change you cannot generate more then 5 fury per attack
30 Fury -- No change you cannot generate more then 5 fury per attack
40 fury -- 4.5 fury per attack or with the 10% enhancement you generate 4.9, 15% would make it 5.
50 fury -- 3.125 fury per attack or with the 10% enhancement 3.4
60 Fury -- 2 fury per attack or 2.2 with enhancement 2.3 with 15%
70 Fury -- 1.125 per attack, or 1.2 with enhancement at 10%
80 Fury -- Doesn't matter cannot go beyond this point but for numbers sake:
.5 fury per attack, .55 with 10% enhancer.
As you can see, the Fury enhancer is WORTHLESS until you get to 40 fury.
And this is the fury generation formula FOR YOUR OWN ATTACKS
0.5 * [(100 - Fury)/20] ^ 2
As Arcanaville posted it.
The majority of fury comes from attacks made against you as you get higher in fury. Since the enhancement only works on your own attacks, it cannot even kick in until 40 fury as I showed.
Do we have confirmation that the proc justs adds a % to the fury generated by that formula? If the proc is applied before the operations of the fury calculation it could dramatically change the results. It also could be applying a flat fury gain per instance it fires (which seems like the way it SHOULD work). I trust Arcanavilles maths, but I haven't had a chance to actually test any of this.
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Yes I have been testing it on the test server, thats why I am trying to make awareness to get this changed before it goes to live. I was wondering why even at 80 fury I wasn't going any higher.|
Originally Posted by Death_Adder
Do we have confirmation that the proc justs adds a % to the fury generated by that formula? If the proc is applied before the operations of the fury calculation it could dramatically change the results. It also could be applying a flat fury gain per instance it fires (which seems like the way it SHOULD work). I trust Arcanavilles maths, but I haven't had a chance to actually test any of this.
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You can pop onto test and try it too. Buy a super pack, once you get an ATO use the converter to keep changing it into a BRute IO, once you got the Brute ATO use the in set converter to convert it until you get the proc IO.
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Do we know yet if the 10% bonus applies before or after that limit?|
Originally Posted by Ultimus
Quoting to emphasize... you cannot get more then 5 fury per attack you make.
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You're completely right overall that this is a plain terrible enhancement. I was just objecting to calling it "worthless" because it is worth something, just not much. Which is pretty much just semantics, so whatever, I'm not going to discuss that point further.
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FYI, I haven't tested the proc to see if it behaves as its description suggests. I provided the calculations based on the assumption it would work as described, and its described as increasing the fury generation from your own attacks.|
Originally Posted by Ultimus
And this is the fury generation formula FOR YOUR OWN ATTACKS
0.5 * [(100 - Fury)/20] ^ 2 As Arcanaville posted it. The majority of fury comes from attacks made against you as you get higher in fury. Since the enhancement only works on your own attacks, it cannot even kick in until 40 fury as I showed. |
However I should also point out that even if it increased fury generation from being attacked by 10%, that would change things only slightly, since my calculations were simplified by eliminating that problem in the first place. If it did increase fury generation across the board, 10% increase would amount to significantly less than one percentage point increase in maximum fury.
Then again, I'm not sure the Scrapper ATIO proc is all that interesting either.
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Fair enough, slotting something beyond the ED cap isn't "worthless" but there is such little benefit almost every other choice is better.
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Originally Posted by Hopeling
Do we know yet if the 10% bonus applies before or after that limit?
You're completely right overall that this is a plain terrible enhancement. I was just objecting to calling it "worthless" because it is worth something, just not much. Which is pretty much just semantics, so whatever, I'm not going to discuss that point further. |
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I can look at the Scrapper proc on test in a few minutes, I was waiting for someone on live as someone contacted me on the boards about something. I believe its like a 2 or 3% increase in critical chance.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
FYI, I haven't tested the proc to see if it behaves as its description suggests. I provided the calculations based on the assumption it would work as described, and its described as increasing the fury generation from your own attacks.
However I should also point out that even if it increased fury generation from being attacked by 10%, that would change things only slightly, since my calculations were simplified by eliminating that problem in the first place. If it did increase fury generation across the board, 10% increase would amount to significantly less than one percentage point increase in maximum fury. Then again, I'm not sure the Scrapper ATIO proc is all that interesting either. |
Scrapper proc is a 20% increase in critical hits, I am not sure what the purple version as part of test is down and keeps saying map not found. I would guess its a 50% increase so 30% with the purple version.
Essentially its approximately a 1% increase in critical chance rate at 5%, 10% = 3%, and 15% = 5%. (its actually slightly less but rounding up)
The purple version of the scrapper proc is +40%, last I saw. So that's +2% crit on minions, +4% on higher-ranked foes, and +6% for the special 15% crit attacks.
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That's what the description suggests it should do, but for mechanical reasons that is not guaranteed to be what it is doing. In particular, I have some question about how its boosting the critical chance of high crit attacks like Eagle's Claw, but I haven't had the time to specifically resolve those questions yet.
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Originally Posted by Hopeling
The purple version of the scrapper proc is +40%, last I saw. So that's +2% crit on minions, +4% on higher-ranked foes, and +6% for the special 15% crit attacks.
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[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
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Ultimas, please learn to Edit - thanks.
Yeah this is disappointing but not a surprise.
My new Youtube Channel with CoH info
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It currently only boosts the >10% crit rate attacks like Eagle's Claw as if they were 10%. So +2% for the normal version and +4% for the upgraded version.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
That's what the description suggests it should do, but for mechanical reasons that is not guaranteed to be what it is doing. In particular, I have some question about how its boosting the critical chance of high crit attacks like Eagle's Claw, but I haven't had the time to specifically resolve those questions yet.
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Quote:
Yes, that's what it does. The Fury inherent checks to see if you have it slotted.|
Originally Posted by Death_Adder
Do we have confirmation that the proc justs adds a % to the fury generated by that formula? If the proc is applied before the operations of the fury calculation it could dramatically change the results. It also could be applying a flat fury gain per instance it fires (which seems like the way it SHOULD work). I trust Arcanavilles maths, but I haven't had a chance to actually test any of this.
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[min <= num <= max] acts as a clamp that limits a number to those values.
Normal Fury:
[0 <= (Attacks * 0.5) <= 10] * [0 <= ((100 - Fury) / 20)^2 <= 10]
Fury with Brute's Fury Special slotted:
[0 <= (Attacks * 0.55) <= 10] * [0 <= ((100 - Fury) / 20)^2 <= 10]
Fury with Superior Brute's Fury Special slotted:
[0 <= (Attacks * 0.575) <= 10] * [0 <= ((100 - Fury) / 20)^2 <= 10]
Source
Quote:
What did you want edited?
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Originally Posted by JayboH
Ultimas, please learn to Edit - thanks.
Yeah this is disappointing but not a surprise. |
What would happen if this ATO Proc reduced fury decay by 10% and 15% upgraded? Would that allow you to get past 80%?
Hmm. That is a shame, though not a surprise. I was really hoping that the ATO would be our way of passing the 80% mark without resorting to using Frenzy all the time.
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That's some "above my pay grade" math, but gut feeling is that reducing decay is more favorable an effect than the "increase in rate" - especially given that the rate is clamped to a maximum that negates the ATO for the first third of the fury bar.
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Originally Posted by Ultimus
What would happen if this ATO Proc reduced fury decay by 10% and 15% upgraded? Would that allow you to get past 80%?
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This is amusing.
The arguably most over-powered AT in the game gets less of a boost than other AT's - Big Deal. I am not a nerf herder and don't want brutes lowered - but my god man they are getting boosted even though they are at the top edge of balanced. In some ways they are unbalanced.
Stalkers and Tankers just are at the far other end of balance and they get a better boost.
This is called FAIR - balancing AT's in an MMO you would think it never happened before - in a related note Regen is due to be nerfed again.............
If I remember correctly, the fury generation formula for your own attacks is this:
0.5 * [(100 - Fury)/20] ^ 2
That's the number of points of fury you gain per attack, with two limits: you cannot get credit for more than 10 attacks per second (essentially an irrelevant limit) and you cannot get more than five points of fury per attack even if fury is zero (the formula would imply 12.5 points of fury per attack when the fury is zero).
You also get credit for attacks that hit you (its half the value per attack against you). Setting that aside for the moment, suppose you were generating one attack per second, which is a fairly high attack rate for a brute. Your attacks would be generating 1.56 fury per second at 50 fury, 1.0 fury per second at 60 fury, 0.56 fps at 70 fury, and only 0.25 fps at 80 fury. At 85 fury its only 0.14 fps. Another way to look at that is that it takes 79% higher fury generation activity to raise the equilibrium point of max fury from 80% to 85%. You have to more than double fury generation ability to get from 85% to 90%. You have to triple it to get from 90% to 95%. To get from 80% to 95% you have to figure out a way to generate 11 *times* more fury.
And those are *total* increases, not just increases from your own attacks. Factoring in the fact that most brutes generate a substantial amount of fury from being attacked, increasing only the fury you generate with your own attacks has an even smaller effect on maximum fury equilibrium than those calculations above imply.
__________________
The proc itself is 10% or 15% when enhanced with a Catalyst. To move from 80-85 fury you have to generate 79% more fury TOTAL.
The proc itself only increases fury generated from your own attacks
Essentially, besides obtaining the set bonus of 2.52% extra smashing/lethal resistance (Which is what the 6th slot in the set provides), it would be better to slot a damage proc or even use that slot to slot a +3% RES ALL PVP proc.
Edit: Added this for emphasis:
Let me break it down even further:
0 Fury: -- No change, you cannot generate more then 5 fury per attack.
10 fury -- No change, you cannot generate more then 5 fury per attack
20 Fury -- No change you cannot generate more then 5 fury per attack
30 Fury -- No change you cannot generate more then 5 fury per attack
40 fury -- 4.5 fury per attack or with the 10% enhancement you generate 4.9, 15% would make it 5.
50 fury -- 3.125 fury per attack or with the 10% enhancement 3.4
60 Fury -- 2 fury per attack or 2.2 with enhancement 2.3 with 15%
70 Fury -- 1.125 per attack, or 1.2 with enhancement at 10%
80 Fury -- Doesn't matter cannot go beyond this point but for numbers sake:
.5 fury per attack, .55 with 10% enhancer.
As you can see, the Fury enhancer is WORTHLESS until you get to 40 fury.