So what, did you get so upset over how poorly your tanker inherent thread went you had to bash something on the other side of the tank spectrum?
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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Thanks Ultimus, I already know how Fury works lol.
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Originally Posted by Ultimus
Well I know you reached this but I was going to point out based on the screenshot alone you have at least 12 enemies attacking you.
No calculator by my side but I would say about 70-80% of your fury generated is coming from their attacks and not your own. |
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Not sure what you are trying to make a point of here but I will address what I can:|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
So what, did you get so upset over how poorly your tanker inherent thread went you had to bash something on the other side of the tank spectrum?
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1) I play both tankers and brutes.
2) If I see something that needs improvement, I speak out about it. Hence the entire reason tankers are getting buffs and Synapse is looking into them is because I typed up a long essay with bullet points to Synapse with my justification why they need to be looked at.
3) As Arcanaville pointed out, this ATO global enhancer is the equal of giving a 5% global damage buff that is subject to ED. IMO, that makes it worthless and frankly I think it needs improvement compared to what the other AT's get.
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Yeah I agree. Does that hidden state get rid of all the aggro on you? I hope not because I don't want to "randomly dump my aggro" to other squishies. |
Originally Posted by Test_Rat
I don't see why the stalker proc is all that hot...
Random chance of a hidden state... Not sure How I can capitalize on something I am not sure will happen. |
I would rather they give us something like -regen or -maxHP debuff so we can help more during AV fight.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Not wanting to step on any toes here, but I think the Proc is worthless. Unless it can be muled into a throwaway slot like inherent running. Because on a high end build I am not going to take one precious enhancer slot and give myself a tiny boost that is subject to a ton of ED. On a low end build (SOs, my fav for just running around experimenting) I will not be investing tons of money for this one enhancer, while leaving the rest of the build SOs. I rarely go middle ground on my builds. They are either full SOs, or high end I/O. The exception is Dark Armor, which just gets giddy beautiful with 4 I/Os.
But even on a SO build I might not slot these if they were free and flowing like sewage in the DFB. The uptick in performance is meh, unless you are a Brute that seriously struggles to get agro. I am running a Brute solo through all content Blueside. Currently finishing out level 10-14 stuff. At this level I am sure I could use a little agro generating help, but then again he is sailing through the content. I expect by late 20s that will be much less of a problem, if it is like Redside when I have soloed it. When I did the Posi 1 & 2 last night Fury was not a problem. (I had others as a 14 Invul Brute lol) But Fury was pegged almost constantly. Er pegged at the unholy cap that has been handed us. that had a lot more to do with my being willing to jump into a spawn as the first in every time than how many times I hit brawl in quick succession.
The proc itself is indeed rather bad in its current form. It still might see some use for the set bonuses, but it would be preferable to improve it to something useful.
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I don't think so (it does not placate, and IIRC there was some text in the long description that made that explicit). So really it's just a roundabout chance for extra crit, which isn't much different than the Scrapper special ATO.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
Yeah I agree. Does that hidden state get rid of all the aggro on you? I hope not because I don't want to "randomly dump my aggro" to other squishies.
I would rather they give us something like -regen or -maxHP debuff so we can help more during AV fight. |
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I still think it should have been called the "critical state" because I said in CoV beta that calling it the hidden state when it doesn't actually have anything to do with stealth would be an indefinite source of confusion. It tended to promote the false belief that Hidden State = Placate or something else strange.|
Originally Posted by Codewalker
I don't think so (it does not placate, and IIRC there was some text in the long description that made that explicit). So really it's just a roundabout chance for extra crit, which isn't much different than the Scrapper special ATO.
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Being in the hidden state is very much like being in the right state to land a combo. In and of itself that's all it is: a flag that says your next attack will do something special. The confusion stems from the fact that the two primary ways to achieve that state is to either let Hide stealth you, or use the Placate power on a target.
In fact that's another endless source of confusion. The Placate power is not synonymous with the placate mez effect. The Placate power hits the target with the placate effect and simultaneously places the caster in the hidden state. The placate *effect* does not automatically place the stalker in the hidden state: using powers that have placate effects other than the actual Placate power does not put you into the hidden state.
So Placate placates and puts you into hidden, but the placate effect doesn't put you into hidden. The Placate power also does not Hide you when it puts you into the hidden state. Hide puts you into hidden and also stealths you, but doesn't placate anything. Overloading the words hide/hidden and placate was not the best idea.
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Looks like the devs are on their way to a hiding, unless they can come up with something to placate Arcanaville.
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Wasn't this due to the nerf?|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I still think it should have been called the "critical state" because I said in CoV beta that calling it the hidden state when it doesn't actually have anything to do with stealth would be an indefinite source of confusion. It tended to promote the false belief that Hidden State = Placate or something else strange.
Being in the hidden state is very much like being in the right state to land a combo. In and of itself that's all it is: a flag that says your next attack will do something special. The confusion stems from the fact that the two primary ways to achieve that state is to either let Hide stealth you, or use the Placate power on a target. In fact that's another endless source of confusion. The Placate power is not synonymous with the placate mez effect. The Placate power hits the target with the placate effect and simultaneously places the caster in the hidden state. The placate *effect* does not automatically place the stalker in the hidden state: using powers that have placate effects other than the actual Placate power does not put you into the hidden state. So Placate placates and puts you into hidden, but the placate effect doesn't put you into hidden. The Placate power also does not Hide you when it puts you into the hidden state. Hide puts you into hidden and also stealths you, but doesn't placate anything. Overloading the words hide/hidden and placate was not the best idea. |
Placate used to actually rehide you back in the day.. or was that only in pvp?
EDIT: Wait so the stalker proc is just a 20% chance the next attack will crit?
That sounds even worse.
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
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And yet, still better than the brute one.
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Originally Posted by Test_Rat
EDIT: Wait so the stalker proc is just a 20% chance the next attack will crit?
That sounds even worse. |
My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.
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How is a chance for double damage worse than an ordinary damage proc?|
Originally Posted by Test_Rat
Wasn't this due to the nerf?
Placate used to actually rehide you back in the day.. or was that only in pvp? EDIT: Wait so the stalker proc is just a 20% chance the next attack will crit? That sounds even worse. |
A damage proc doesn't scale with enhancements or +DMG buffs, a crit does. And 20% is fairly generous as far as damage proc rates go; though since it's attuned chances are it has a PPM limiter...
Sometimes I think people are expecting "Slot this for godmode" from the ATOs.
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Originally Posted by Codewalker
How is a chance for double damage worse than an ordinary damage proc?
A damage proc doesn't scale with enhancements or +DMG buffs, a crit does. And 20% is fairly generous as far as damage proc rates go; though since it's attuned chances are it has a PPM limiter... Sometimes I think people are expecting "Slot this for godmode" from the ATOs. |
My main excitement for the ATIO's is in the Targeted AoE attacks on various toons: To be frank, the targeted AOE sets stink on ice, with the PVP IO's and the new ATIO's being the only bright spots. Well, for a price.
Street justice especially is going to be heartily boosted by the ATIO's and I'm looking forward to it, depending upon rarity/expense, of course.
I'm also looking closely at spring attack/lightning rod combo's, depending upon how the ATIO crit ptoc's work in AOE's.
(GLEE) So much to do!
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Yep; I'm waiting and seeing on that front too.|
Originally Posted by mauk2
My main excitement for the ATIO's is in the Targeted AoE attacks on various toons: To be frank, the targeted AOE sets stink on ice, with the PVP IO's and the new ATIO's being the only bright spots. Well, for a price.
Street justice especially is going to be heartily boosted by the ATIO's and I'm looking forward to it, depending upon rarity/expense, of course. |
I slotted FF +RECH on one toon, but otherwise I'm holding off on I/O ing spinning strike to see if the ATIO's will be better than the relatively poor options currently available.
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I know! It's confusing. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I still think it should have been called the "critical state" because I said in CoV beta that calling it the hidden state when it doesn't actually have anything to do with stealth would be an indefinite source of confusion. It tended to promote the false belief that Hidden State = Placate or something else strange.
Being in the hidden state is very much like being in the right state to land a combo. In and of itself that's all it is: a flag that says your next attack will do something special. The confusion stems from the fact that the two primary ways to achieve that state is to either let Hide stealth you, or use the Placate power on a target. In fact that's another endless source of confusion. The Placate power is not synonymous with the placate mez effect. The Placate power hits the target with the placate effect and simultaneously places the caster in the hidden state. The placate *effect* does not automatically place the stalker in the hidden state: using powers that have placate effects other than the actual Placate power does not put you into the hidden state. So Placate placates and puts you into hidden, but the placate effect doesn't put you into hidden. The Placate power also does not Hide you when it puts you into the hidden state. Hide puts you into hidden and also stealths you, but doesn't placate anything. Overloading the words hide/hidden and placate was not the best idea. |
Hey, which reminds me of one thing. Instead of creating another version of "Increase Critical Chance", what if they make it like Ninja Mastermind's Smoke Flash?
When the proc happens, it lasts for 5-7s (duration and proc chance need to be seriously tested for sure) and every hit is critical (if the attack is assigned with critical and follows aoe formula)? The chance can be small but at least it's different from Scrapper's version?
What do you think?
This should fit the idea of "Critical State" better?
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
So I thought about this more last night and had another idea come to mind:
What if this was changed to a proc called "Frenzy" (Name needs work its the same name as the Villain Alignment Power).
Basically the power would stop all fury decay for the next 10 seconds while also generating 1 fury per second.
It would have a small chance to proc with a PPM in place of only 2-3.
NOTE: If you don't know what a PPM is its procs per minute, basically its a way of averaging a proc rate so that a speedy set doesn't have an advantage a slower set because there is a maximum amount of procs allowed in a single minute.
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Is this what the PPM on the procs means? I had assumed it was like the PPM procs in other games, where it doesn't literally restrict you to a certain number of procs in a minute, but instead adjusts the proc chance based on attack speed to give the same average number of procs per minute (so with, say, 3 PPM, an attack with a 10s recharge would have a 50% proc chance, a 5s recharge would get a 25% proc chance, and a 20s recharge would get 100%). But I have not tested it at all.
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Originally Posted by Ultimus
NOTE: If you don't know what a PPM is its procs per minute, basically its a way of averaging a proc rate so that a speedy set doesn't have an advantage a slower set because there is a maximum amount of procs allowed in a single minute.
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Most other games do not allow you to increase recharge rate on almost every power in an almost unlimited fashion. Doing the above would involve a lot of dynamic calculations on the fly for the procs to work out correctly.|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
Is this what the PPM on the procs means? I had assumed it was like the PPM procs in other games, where it doesn't literally restrict you to a certain number of procs in a minute, but instead adjusts the proc chance based on attack speed to give the same average number of procs per minute (so with, say, 3 PPM, an attack with a 10s recharge would have a 50% proc chance, a 5s recharge would get a 25% proc chance, and a 20s recharge would get 100%). But I have not tested it at all.
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Also, most other games start recharging their powers when they activate, not when they complete casting. That throws the above calculations for a loop: they basically wouldn't work in our game as described without extra complicating modifications.
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Neither of these things are true in the game I was thinking of, though. Tracking how many procs there have been in the last minute is probably not much easier (I guess the proc could apply a 60s buff with a stacking limit or something, I'm getting into SCR territory here though, so I should probably shut up about it). Moreover, the text description of the Defender proc, for example, says this:|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Most other games do not allow you to increase recharge rate on almost every power in an almost unlimited fashion. Doing the above would involve a lot of dynamic calculations on the fly for the procs to work out correctly.
Also, most other games start recharging their powers when they activate, not when they complete casting. That throws the above calculations for a loop: they basically wouldn't work in our game as described without extra complicating modifications. |
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Originally Posted by Defender ATO Proc
Gives the slotted power a chance to heal the caster and nearby allies for a minor amount of health and reduces recharge time by 18.5%. This effect will be triggered roughly 4 times per minute.
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Originally Posted by Blaster ATO Proc
This enhancement's chance to trigger is equal to approximately 4 times per minute.
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Edit: typo
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I was under the impression from previous redname statements that the procs-per-minute were dynamic calculations.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Most other games do not allow you to increase recharge rate on almost every power in an almost unlimited fashion. Doing the above would involve a lot of dynamic calculations on the fly for the procs to work out correctly.
Also, most other games start recharging their powers when they activate, not when they complete casting. That throws the above calculations for a loop: they basically wouldn't work in our game as described without extra complicating modifications. |
That's what it sounded like when we got an explanation in the Market Enhancement feedback thread, before Freedom went live.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
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I don't think they are dynamic in the way being discussed. They are dynamic calculations tracked relative to the proc: the proc goes off X times per second maximum. It does not reverse calculate by what percentage it should go off, if its slotted in a power with A recharge and B cast time, assuming C recharge strength buffs, adjusted every second.
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Originally Posted by Void_Huntress
I was under the impression from previous redname statements that the procs-per-minute were dynamic calculations.
That's what it sounded like when we got an explanation in the Market Enhancement feedback thread, before Freedom went live. |
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OK, I'm doing some testing myself, because I want to know how this works.
First, the Stalker and Corruptor procs both say 20% chance in their text description, but also say "will trigger roughly 4 times per minute". I don't know if that means they work differently from the other procs, which only say "a chance", or if it's a text error. Right now my only characters on beta are two scrappers, a brute, and a corruptor, and the scrapper/brute procs aren't procs, so I'm testing this with the corruptor. I've queued up a blaster to transfer, so I can test that one later.
I placed the proc in Overcharge, to see if a long recharge would make it more likely to proc, and shot a guy in Steel Canyon because that's where I happened to be. No proc, but he was one-shotted and I'm not sure if the proc gets a chance to go off, so I went to PI. Shot a level 42 Warhulk (didn't kill it), no proc. Shot another Warhulk, again no proc. Rikti boss, no proc. Another Rikti boss, no proc. Several more bosses, still no proc. OK, I feel confident in ruling out the possibility of long-recharge powers having a higher proc chance.
Assuming the proc is working at all, that is. It was a little odd to get NO procs in ten shots - far, far from statistically impossible, but unlikely enough to make me wonder. It's difficult to get a significant sample size with Overcharge, since its recharge is so long, so I unslotted the proc and moved it to Single Shot. Pew-pewed three bosses to death with just Single Shot, which took several minutes and did not observe a single proc. No orange numbers, nothing in the combat log, and no unexpectedly large drops in health that I could see. Whether it's supposed to be a 20% chance, a dynamic proc chance averaging 4 per minute, a 20% chance with a limit of 4 per minute, or some other possibility, it appears to be completely broken and not firing at all. >.< My corruptor is level 47, so I can't test the Superior proc right now.
There was a 10-minute maintenance warning while I was finishing this up, so trying the Blaster proc will have to wait.
Edit: Server's back up and my Blaster is copied over, so I'm testing the Blaster proc now.
Here's some further testing on the Blaster proc. First, I put it in Hail of Bullets, again to see if a long-recharge power has a higher proc chance. Several casts later, I've seen zero procs, so again I feel confident ruling out that possibility... as long as the proc actually works.
I moved it to Pistols, put that on auto, flew around and shot a bunch of dudes. No procs observed, no orange numbers, nothing in the combat log.
Looking in the bug report thread on the beta forums, I am apparently not alone here. As far as I can tell, the answer to "How do the PPM procs work?" is currently "They don't." I suppose I'll have to wait to find out how they work, until they're fixed or somebody who knows what it's supposed to be explains it.
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Found the posts:|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I don't think they are dynamic in the way being discussed. They are dynamic calculations tracked relative to the proc: the proc goes off X times per second maximum. It does not reverse calculate by what percentage it should go off, if its slotted in a power with A recharge and B cast time, assuming C recharge strength buffs, adjusted every second.
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Originally Posted by Clockwork O1
These enhancements are bound by procs per minute, this means that these enhancements don't have normal chance to proc, instead the proc rate is based upon the recharge and activation time of the power into which it is slotted. This means that slower recharging powers will proc more often than faster recharging powers.
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Originally Posted by Clockwork O1
For example:
Brawl has a very short activation time and recharge time. If you slotted a store bought enhancement into Brawl it would have a very small chance to proc due to the fact that Brawl activates and recharges so quickly. It would also be limited to a maximum number of procs within the space of one minute, so that if you got really lucky and it procced very early within the space of that one minute, it may not proc at all for the rest of that minute. In terms of numbers Brawl may have a 10% chance to proc with a max ppm (procs per minute) rate of 2. Take this same enhancement and slot it into a power with a long activation time and long cooldown time, say for example, a sniper power with a 1 minute cooldown (I'm not thinking of one off the top of my head). Because this sniper power has a 1 minute cooldown and has an exceptionally long activation time, it's proc rate could be much higher. In terms of numbers, Sniper may have an 85% chance to proc with a max ppm of 3. That being said, Synapse is really busy and I'm probably butchering his numbers, but I think you get the idea. I'll bug him to touch base on this thread when he gets a chance. |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
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No calculator by my side but I would say about 70-80% of your fury generated is coming from their attacks and not your own.
Yeah. The Fury was being generated, and it had little to do with the Brute fighting. This has been my tactic since I realized Brutes benefit from Fury. I normally run SS/Invul Brutes. I normally do not take the 1st tier attack. I use Sands of Mu. What I am saying is I attack slow. Some people like to drive a sportscar, I prefer a comfy old Chevy Suburban. Before they nerfed Fury I never had a problem fighting at 90%+ Fury. And i do not use taunt, or did not until Fury got nerfed. Post nerf I normally fight at between 70-80% Fury. I spend seconds in every combat deciding whether the team would be better me attacking this mob, or that mob, jumping to that spawn, etc. I really enjoy plotting tactics on the fly. I have slow attacks. So, my Fury bar is only incidentally helped by my attacks. I depend on irritating everything on the map and making them try to kill me to generate the Fury I need.