The ATO proc for Brutes is worthless

Regen? Who has the not sure if serious Joker meme?

Correct you can't slot a normal and a superior, and they are unique.

You bumped your own thread many times in a row, that's all.

Uh, the brute ATIO is damn fine, poor proc or not. The recharge bonus is SWEET, and much better than what tankers get. I'd just about call the differences a wash.


LOL!!!

OLD school forum whining.

Tankers also get the recharge bonus and a proc that gives them 20% RES ALL for 20 seconds. Were you looking at the regular version which is 7.5% recharge? The superior one is 10%

Did you see my numbers? The ones I posted are from your own attacks, this only effects your own attacks. Attacks made against you give half the amount of fury then an attack made by you, and this doesn't effect that.

In other words, let me break it down a bit further:

The proc only works from 40-80 fury, assuming in an 10 second time frame you made 5 attacks, and jumped into a spawn of 13 enemies that made 20 attacks against you in that time frame. Lets say at this point you are now at 80 fury.

If the total fury gained was 40 by this, 5 attacks made by you with 1.15 modifier would mean its 5.75 attacks by you. The 20 attacks by the enemies would contribute the same as 10 attacks made by you.

If 10 + 5.75 = 40 fury, then 5.75/15.75 = the percentage of fury contributed from your attacks which is 36.5%. -- 63.5% is coming from the attacks made against you.

Essentially in this case its boosting your attacks by 5.475% more fury from your attacks, when factoring in attacks made against you. In the above scenario 40 fury is being made,
so this contributes as 40 X .05475% = an extra 2.19 fury.

In other words, its a 4% damage increase for 10 seconds until you reach 80 fury then it goes away.

Thats worthless.

No because its not hard to build fury. A Brute can go from 0 to full fury (80) by jumping into a spawn and be there in 10 seconds. The only exception would be if the Brute is not being attacked and he is attacking a foe, like an arch villain. In this scenario it would take longer to get to 80 fury with the length depending on the animation times of the attacks he is making.

Lets assume a Brute has a full attack chain, which equates to 7 attacks made in a 10 second period.

It takes approximately 30 attacks (Maybe 35) without being attacked to reach 80 fury. That would equate to about 50 seconds to 60 seconds.

Now if even the proc *DOUBLED* all your fury gain made by you, this would only reduce the time spent from 50-60 seconds to 25-30 seconds. The formula used is 1/(1+fury gain) so in this case its 1/(1.15) = 87%.

87% X 50 and 87% X 60 = 43.48, and 52.2, essentially you would reach max fury about 6 and 7 seconds faster if no enemies were attacking you at all.

Going back to our original dedication of 7 attacks in a 10 second period, that would only eliminate approximately 2-3 attacks out of 35 attacks.

This enhancer needs to let Brutes go beyond the max and increase the sustained DPS imo.

Did you see mine? I'm already basically ED-capped on damage without using the d/r ATIO from the set. Not using the proc gets me very little, and using it gets me very little. It's a wash. If I want to get the 5-slot bonus, I get to choose between something that may help me a little, situationally, or something that slightly increases the damage of a single power.

I don't think you're listening to what I said because you're so worked up, so let me break it down for you:

When choosing between dam/rech and proc/rech for the fifth slot, IT DOESN'T MATTER for my build, because of where I'm planning on slotting the set.

I understand your numbers. I understand how fury works. I understand that the effect of the proc is unimpressive, and that the apparent "bonus" of the power won't make much difference at all in game play, particularly for a brute that's built to spike fury rapidly. As such, it has the exact same value for me as the dam/rech piece, and I'll slot whichever I get first.

Getting me to the 5-slot bonus is not "worthless". That's all either of the pieces do for me, as they currently exist. You can continue railing about how bad the proc is, but I don't know how much of a meaningful change you can expect to fury generation based on the fury changes that basically capped everybody's potential in the low-80s range. This type of proc bonus was always kind of a red herring, it seems like.

You and I are coming at this from different places. You came at it from a 6-slot perspective. If I were 6-slotting a power, I would go 5 whatever from this set and then slot a damage proc.** If my goal was purely to maximize damage output for a single power, I'd even go with the d/r over the proc/r, for that extra few percent. I agree with you there. But I'm just looking at 5 slots, and based on what I'm seeing, and my lack of need to make sure Punch is at +101.3% damage and +96.3% recharge (with dam/rech) rather than +96.3% damage and +94% recharge (with proc/rech), it doesn't matter. It's decimal dust. The extra 2.07 smashing damage each time I hit with it isn't a deal-breaker for me. Even if the proc only helps fury generation from my attacks, in a fairly narrow band, it's not something I'm going to get worked up about when compared to the other 5-slot option.




** = (Or I'd do 3 catalyzed and 3 not catalyzed to get 7.5 S/L defense, if I were desperate for S/L for some reason.)

Edited to add: I also wouldn't object if this became a damage proc with a recharge boost along the lines of some of the other sets.

Thing is though the DMG/RECH is better because it can be boosted by enhancement boosters taking it from 33/33 to about 41/41% dmg/rech -- You cannot boost the other even though it has recharge attached to it.

Even with ED you would still gain about 6% more damage in that power you'd gain more recharge too for when things do -recharge.

As it stands, the proc may as well just be a unique global enhancer that increases S/L resistance by 2.52% because it does barely anything.

****

I agree that it should either be:

A) A proc like the others get that does damage.

B) Allow you to reach higher fury levels...

or.... C (Here's a new idea)

What if the enhancement was changed into a fury proc? It has a small chance (5%? Maybe 10) to proc 20 fury...

Basically when it procs you get more fury, make it limited to only the primary target so an AOE power cannot keep spamming it or put a small cooldown on it.

This would be interesting and would allow Brutes to reach the cap.

Did you test that? Because I just went on beta and tried to boost an ATIO, and wasn't given the option to do so. I tried it with one that hadn't been catalyzed and one that had, just to be sure. And I was able to boost other IOs just fine.

I'd thought I remembered these not being boostable. It does change things if you can boost them, but I don't believe you can.

So, decimal dust. I'd support a change, but if there's no change then it's just a coin-flip for the fifth slot. The set will give good enhancement and set bonuses either way.

If your goal is something that will allow brutes to consistently get to the fury cap, I'm about 100% sure that's never going to happen. If they went with something like a true "chance for fury" proc I think the best you could hope for is one that (a) gives 5 fury per activation pop and (b) probably doesn't check its activation more than once every 15-20 seconds.

I just checked - you can't.

Originally Posted by Shubbie Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.

...sigh.

Ultimus. Stop for a second.

WHY did brutes have their fury generation capped at 80-ish, while Tanks got Bruising and a boost to hit points?

Because Brutes were WAY TOO GOOD. Under buffs, they did more damage than scrappers and were just as tough as tankers.

Despite the various opinions on the boards, the Dev's apparently saw this situation as well as most of us here.

Many people STILL feel that Brutes are too good. I do not: Instead I think the other melee AT's need a boost.


However, I really, strongly doubt the Dev's are going to cap brute damage to address a balance issue, and then uncap it a few months later, unless the other melee At's also get some pretty serious boosts in the meantime.

Synapse is currently looking at Tankers. On top of whatever boosts that AT gets, I think Scrappers should have their damage caps raised by a hundred percent, along with Stalkers. (On top of the other Stalker changes.) If all those changes go in, then I think there would be design space for brutes to go back to the way they were.

If not, then Brutes are going to have the advantage of one really inexpensive ATIO when they're shopping for set bonuses.

If Stalkers and Scrappers got a 100% damage cap increase, Blasters *THE DAMAGE ARCHETYPE* would be made even more useless.

Which is why I also advocate for a +100 percent to the Blaster damage cap, too. They need a 100 percents boost to have a prayer of competing against the buffer/debuffers out there.

Of course, the BIG problem is buff/debuff stacking, but the dev's all seem to run and hide when that's even mentioned....

That's what you choose to respond to? Not the basic point that providing a means of reliably reaching/maintaining the fury cap for brutes after re-designing fury so that it effectively caps at 80% under all but the most extreme gameplay conditions does not seem to make sense?

I was also talking about this with a friend who pointed out that the way you play your brutes may not be at all typical of how most people play their brutes, and there may actually be playstyles that benefit from this proc.

That being said, I'm now convinced that I'd rather have a damage proc as part of the set than this. At least a damage proc provides a predictable benefit to every brute who slots it.

Yeah I would rather have the damage proc too, I slot all the purple damage procs because at a 33% chance for moderate damage that is a sizable chunk.

There is also no reason not to be at 80 fury even if you are fighting against a target that is not attacking you.

Even if you only took one attack *EVERYONE* gets brawl which has a 0 endurance cost and you could put that on autofire. That would be like me creating a proc that boosts a mastermind's damage by 4% for 10 seconds with the reasoning that "not everyone takes the pets from a Mastermind"

Originally Posted by Shubbie Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.

Thats what I suggested in my post on page 2 I believe.