Power set proliferation...could've been better

Hmm, so based on that logic, maybe we need a stalker that can turn itself into random propel style objects.

Suddenly it turns out that the forklift everyone was standing behind turns out to be a gadgets stalker in disguise!

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LOL! A strangely cool idea but I really think that kind of thing needs to be left up to the player's imagination.

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"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull

"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat

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Stalker - Shields or fire melee

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Shields doesn't mesh with most stalkers sets or the stalker theme. Fire melee functionally double but breaks theme since how stealthy is a man on fire?

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Where there's fire, there's smoke...and smoke hides just as well as being invisible. I could easily see a Fiery Melee or Fiery Aura Stalker work. Especially if Placate and Hide involved vanishing into a swirling mass of smoke and embers, and then reappearing in a sudden blazing flash when you strike, like a backdraft.

That could be pretty darn cool.

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Backdraft Brawler?

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"I swear you could fling a man hole cover across the street and hit more notes than 90% of those idiots on American Idol" -Desmodos
"Every time you post I feel like I been hit with a fist full of smart! Thanks." - Volken re: Sucker Punch
Arc #36984 V'kta A'cha Vox'm

Just noting for the record, As I recall one of the devs said that illusion would probably be altered into a mastermind primary rather than a control primary. Which, to me at least, makes a lot more sense.

This was brought up the last time we had this sort of thing happen. I want to say it was Positron, but I can never be sure.

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This thread doesn't jump the gun - it digs up the ore that will be refined to eventually forge the gun that would have been jumped. -Obsidius


I am a Dominator,
And I am a Jerk 4 life.

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Hmm, so based on that logic, maybe we need a stalker that can turn itself into random propel style objects.

Suddenly it turns out that the forklift everyone was standing behind turns out to be a gadgets stalker in disguise!

[/ QUOTE ]Gadgets Stalker=DO WANT *dreamland*

Also, some other things people suggested:

Dark Miasma would be crazy hard to balance for Controllers.

Dark Assault would be EASY to build for Doms... but a pain to balance, again. (the lack of it never made sense to me...)
Dark Manipulation as a blaster secondary would also be pretty easy as noted above.
Electrical control, yeah, that would be nice, and as said above, easy to build (3 gremlins for pets, similar to Fire, though).
Superstrength for Stalkers? Naah, the alt animations sound like they'll take care of that.

Why is it though that I feel like the only one who wants Ice Melee and Ice Armor for Stalkers? I mean, it seems like a no-brainer?

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All that is planned fails. All that is born dies.
All that is built crumbles. This will always be true.

But memories remain, And that is beautiful.

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It is time to start thinking about a brand new Control Set such as Electric, Energy, Rad, Dark, Devices.


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Oddly enough, I spent an hour one night compiling a list of different electrical mezzes and effects, even dipped into some mob attacks.

Existing powers:

Electric Fence - ST Immo
Electrifying Fences - AoE Immo
Electric Shackles - ST Hold/-End/Recovery
Shocking Bolt - ST Hold
Lightning Field - PBAoE Toggle
Lightning Clap - PBAoE Disorient/KB
Power Sink - PBAoE End Drain/-Recovery
Shocking Grasp - Melee Damage/Hold/End Drain/-Recovery
Static Discharge - Cone Moderate Damage/-End
Short Circuit - PBAoE End Drain/-Recovery
Tesla Cage - ST Hold/-End/-Recovery

EM Pulse - PBAoE Nuke, Foe Disorient/-Regen/-End/Special Vs Bots

A quickly cobbled together Electric Control set (Although this is geared more towards Dominators):

1) Electric Fence - Single-target Immobilize/Moderate Damage/-Rec
1) Electric Shackles - Single-target Hold/Moderate Damage/-Rec
2) Electrifying Fences - AoE Immobilize/Minor Damage/-Rec
6) Short Circuit - PBAoE End Drain/-Recovery
8) Lightning Field - PBAoE Toggle -End
12) EM Pulse - PBAoE NON-NUKE version Disorient/-Regen/-End/-Rec/SpecialVsBots (Toned down to match non-nuke status)
18) Lightning Clap - PBAoE Disorient/Knockback
26) Thunder Stomp - PBAoE Knockdown/Disorient/-End (See: Deathsurge)
32) Summon Surge (Deathsurge/Cap Gremlin Hybrid: Charged Bolts, Lightning Bolt, Charged Brawl, Havoc Punch, Thunderstrike, Electric Explosion -End PBAoE/Moderate Damage on death)

So basically, their pet would be a tiny, agitated Deathsurge.

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Seconded. And thirded. And fourthed.

I'm disappointed Dominators still don't get to be Elec/Elec. I'm also bummed there's no new MM primaries (seriously, this would be much more popular than ANY proliferation you can come up with). But like BABs said, maybe next time.

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Hmm, so based on that logic, maybe we need a stalker that can turn itself into random propel style objects.

Suddenly it turns out that the forklift everyone was standing behind turns out to be a gadgets stalker in disguise!

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Make it simpler: they turn into a crate or cardboard box. While hidden the Gadget Stalker also sees question marks over enemy heads that turn into exclamation points if they can detect him.

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Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...

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I'm always happy to see power sets proliferated, so please don't take this post as a sour grapes post. With that said, is anyone a little disappointed that the most wanted sets weren't prolife

Here's what would've made me jump for joy:

Blasters -Dark Blast (though I admit, Rad Blast is a fine choice)

Brutes - Regeneration

Controller - Dark Miasma

Corruptor - Poison (though Trick Arrow was a fine choice too)

Defender - Poison

Dominator - Illusion

MM - Kinetics

Scrapper - Super strength or energy melee or fire epic powers

Stalker - Shields or fire melee

Tanker - Spines or energy aura

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SS for Scrappers Paragon studios please!

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SS for Scrappers Paragon studios please!

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EM I could see. They'd have to nerf it to work like with Stalkers. Meaning TF would only crit for +33% and ET's "crit" would be you don't lose HP. It would still outperform the other Scrapper sets though considering ET would do over 280 damage WITHOUT being able to crit.

SS I have no idea. I just can't see how they'd balance the fact that a Scrapper could double stack Rage and do over 660 damage (before enhancements, without critting) with Knockout Blow. Maybe if they turned Rage into Build Up it would be halfway balanced.

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SS for Scrappers Paragon studios please!

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EM I could see. They'd have to nerf it to work like with Stalkers. Meaning TF would only crit for +33% and ET's "crit" would be you don't lose HP. It would still outperform the other Scrapper sets though considering ET would do over 280 damage WITHOUT being able to crit.

SS I have no idea. I just can't see how they'd balance the fact that a Scrapper could double stack Rage and do over 660 damage (before enhancements, without critting) with Knockout Blow. Maybe if they turned Rage into Build Up it would be halfway balanced.

[/ QUOTE ] I'm sorry i just want it

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re: SS for Scrappers:

Please?

Pretty please?

Pretty please with sugar on top? And whipped cream, and a cherry??

(Please)^100?

Thank you.

(P.S.: How would one double-stack Rage? The only way I could imagine would be at the higher levels, where one would actually need something like that (say, to fight AVs and such).)

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SS I have no idea. I just can't see how they'd balance the fact that a Scrapper could double stack Rage and do over 660 damage (before enhancements, without critting) with Knockout Blow. Maybe if they turned Rage into Build Up it would be halfway balanced.

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Take out the crash and make it unaffected by recharge buffs.

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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound

I read through all the dev posts here and something doesn't seem to make sense.

Why would they transfer over Traps/AR rather than Thermal/Fire?

It has been said that the sets were picked due to "ease of implementation", but isn't a set that uses a whole bunch of different devices/sprites/models more complex than two sets that only use colored powers without separate devices/sprites/models to animate?

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At the bottom of the page it says, other features to be announced. No one said that was all that was coming. Be patient, XCITED!!!!, but patient.

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At the bottom of the page it says, other features to be announced. No one said that was all that was coming. Be patient, XCITED!!!!, but patient.

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Castle did say earlier in this thread that this is all that's coming on the proliferation front.

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Branching Paragon Police Department Epic Archetype, please!

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I read through all the dev posts here and something doesn't seem to make sense.

Why would they transfer over Traps/AR rather than Thermal/Fire?

It has been said that the sets were picked due to "ease of implementation", but isn't a set that uses a whole bunch of different devices/sprites/models more complex than two sets that only use colored powers without separate devices/sprites/models to animate?

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The sets are already made. So the ease would be the same imo.

I think TRAPS/AR was chosen before THERMAL/FIRE because Dual Pistols is coming to Defenders, and thus people can have TRAPS/DP Defenders.

That's my guess anyways.

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BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

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Stalker - Shields or fire melee

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Shields doesn't mesh with most stalkers sets or the stalker theme. Fire melee functionally double but breaks theme since how stealthy is a man on fire?

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Where there's fire, there's smoke...and smoke hides just as well as being invisible. I could easily see a Fiery Melee or Fiery Aura Stalker work. Especially if Placate and Hide involved vanishing into a swirling mass of smoke and embers, and then reappearing in a sudden blazing flash when you strike, like a backdraft.

That could be pretty darn cool.

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Which is one of the many reasons fire melee/fire aura would've been infinitely better than Broadsword.

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I read through all the dev posts here and something doesn't seem to make sense.

Why would they transfer over Traps/AR rather than Thermal/Fire?

It has been said that the sets were picked due to "ease of implementation", but isn't a set that uses a whole bunch of different devices/sprites/models more complex than two sets that only use colored powers without separate devices/sprites/models to animate?

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The sets are already made. So the ease would be the same imo.

I think TRAPS/AR was chosen before THERMAL/FIRE because Dual Pistols is coming to Defenders, and thus people can have TRAPS/DP Defenders.

That's my guess anyways.

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Also, if you look at defender blast sets, the one thing they all have in common is they have a secondary debuff effect of some kind. To-hit debuff, knockback, slow, -res, -def, -recharge. Assault Rifle has a -def component.

Fire has no such secondary effect.

One of the reasons defenders probably don't have fire yet is because they trade damage for a more potent secondary effect. As an example: sonic defender will debuff resistance with their attacks more than blaster or corruptor will. The same holds true with -def and slows, and pretty much any secondary effect. The better comparison is with Corruptors because they share almost everything. Defender Dark Blast debuffs slightly more than corruptor dark blast.

Since Fire has no secondary effect, defenders would lose damage potential and not gain anything in return for it.

A possibility for a secondary effect that can be added to Fire Blast would be -damage. It would be thematically appropriate, if you're on fire you aren't focusing on hitting as hard as you can.

It would also add some much needed mitigation to Fire Blast for blasters. It won't slow down attack rates or make them less accurate, but if they are doing less damage you will live longer.

Edited for clarity, I was half asleep when I first posted this

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Also, if you look at defender blast sets, the one thing they all have in common is they have a secondary debuff effect of some kind. To-hit debuff, knockback, slow, -res, -def, -recharge. Assault Rifle has a -def component.

Fire has no such secondary effect.

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Um.

AR only has -DEF in one power. In fact, it has more knockback effects than anything else.

Burst: -DEF
Slug: Knockback
Buckshot: Knockback
M30 Grenade: Knockback
Beanbag: Stun
Sniper Rifle: Knockback
Flamethrower: DoT
Ignite: DoT
Full Auto: None

Fire does have a secondary effect. DoT damage. It may not be as useful as the other ones, or modified by the Defender numbers, but for people who just want more damage, they could go Fire.

Look at Archery. Its bonuses are accuracy and endurance reduction. Those things aren't different because of Defender modifiers. But Defenders still have it. It has no more of a debuff secondary effect than Fire does.

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but other than that they were able to directly port everything over or at least pull powers and visuals from existing powersets.

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Then I really don't get earth assault for doms. I know we have the melee attacks from stone melee... but where are the stone blasts coming from?

Or are they using the same animations as other blasts with new particles, which you don't consider different animations?

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Earth Assault is a special case.

When Sunstorm first started, we gave him some training (read: shackled him to the desk and forced him to look at spreadsheets) and gave him a bunch of bugs to fix to learn the systems.

Fixing Bugs doesn't teach everything, though, so he put together Earth Assault as a set to experiment with and learn the ropes. Eventually, he got it into shape and it turned out to be quite a fun set. We wrote it up as a full proposal for the next round of proliferation, since all the work had already been done...and, here we are.

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Lol. The Shackles I didn't mind, but the IV's were obnoxious.

No "Eventually" about it, I was play testing it after the first round of proliferation and have been waiting anxiously till I can build one on the live servers. Never played a more "tankish" feeling dominator, despite it having no armors.

Some very good guesses here on the powers, but Earth Assault will be a very melee heavy set. Also opted for the regular Hurl boulder Animation, since the Propel Boulder animation uses the full 3.5 second long propel animation. Now I may be a huge fan of propel for my grav doms/Trollers, but the thought of having 2 versions of it didn't seem too fun.

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I already snagged San Andrea on Virtue just for a Earth^2 dom.

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@bpphantom
The Defenders of Paragon
KGB Special Section 8

I tried to build a Dark Control set from what we already have, but it's painfully Fear based. Dark Assault would be a cinch though, and Dark Manipulation, like you said.

The only pet I could think of for Dark Control was the Pantheon Masks, perhaps with the Lanaruu elemental graphics. So you'd create four small shadows, each with two attacks, so even if one dies you still have decent damage at range. The set would be heavily control, minimal damage, with pets and possibly a Soul Extraction type ability at 18 to supplement damage.

-EDIT-

Dark Control

1) Horror - Single-target Fear/Immobilize/Moderate Damage
1) Terror - Single-target Hold/Moderate Damage
2) Wave of Horror - Targetted AoE Immobilize/ToHit Debuff/Minor Damage (Tenebrous Tentacles' graphics)
6) Panic - Single-target Confuse (Confuse+Smoke Effect on target's head for graphics)
8) Nightmare - Targetted AoE Sleep/ToHit Debuff
12) Dread - Location AoE Fear/ToHit Debuff (No Line of Sight required, translucent Tar Patch graphics)
18) Doppelganger - Summons temporary pet based on fallen enemy (See Mastermind Soul Extraction, translucent copy of enemy, doesn't work on Elite Bosses/Archvillains/Heroes)
26) Gaze into the Abyss - Single Target Fear/Immobilize/Hold/Stun/Sleep/Confuse/ToHit Debuff
32) Dusk Essences - Summons what is effectively the Banished Pantheon Masks, each with an additional ranged attack per their type (Gloom, Subdue, Power Burst, Irradiate). Uses Lanaruu elemental graphics.


Dark Assault

1) Dark Blast
2) Smite
4) Nightfall
10) Gloom
16) Power Boost
20) Dark Consumption
28) Siphon Life
35) Moonbeam
38) Midnight Grasp

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I've always been annoyed that controllers got plant control. I mean Controllers had their own primary (Illusion) and doms had plants, but then they gave it to Controllers and Doms didn't get illusions? I felt cheated. Not necessarily because I wanted an illusion dominator it was just a matter of principle. I mean proliferation gives you some odd combos and sometimes it give you some very weird ones as well. Dual Blade Stalkers (who don't seem to work) and Ice Brutes (I know they never made the final cut) come to mind. But sometimes I like that a class has a power set to themselves. Too much proliferation of the power sets and the individuality of the archetypes seems muddled.

And before anyone goes off on this I know if you played a Stone/Stone Tank and a Stone/Stone brute they'll end up very different but I still like the idea of archetypes having their own power sets that nobody else gets.

Oh well, at least Masterminds will always have their own primaries .

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Too much proliferation of the power sets and the[u] individuality of the archetypes seems muddled. [u]


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So?

Why do the ATs have to be unique and beautiful snowflakes? And assuming they do, why can't the inherent powers handle that task?

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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.

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I've always been annoyed that controllers got plant control.

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It's called Plant Control but your mad Controllerers got it?

Look folks, there no evil powers sets or good powersets, just good and bad characters. Complete proliferation is one of the best things the Devs decided to do in this game. With switching sides coming soon, this old idea that only a hero can use a Broadsword or only a villain can lead a bunch of robots around is just old and done.

If you want to complain that the ATs aren't special anymore then blame it on the Inherent powers not having a big enough effect, cause my brute having claws doesn't make you scrapper any less fun or cool.

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Too much proliferation of the power sets and the[u] individuality of the archetypes seems muddled. [u]


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So?

Why do the ATs have to be unique and beautiful snowflakes? And assuming they do, why can't the inherent powers handle that task?

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This.

Proliferate the power sets, fix the inherent powers imo.

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