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Power set proliferation...could've been better

13th_Stranger

By 13th_Stranger,
Posted on: 2009-07-16 24:59 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion

 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We're all losing focus on the important issue here. Convincing someone in NCSoft to write up the full proposal for the Dark Manipulation secondary for blasters.

1) Gravimetric Snare (it needs a name change)
2) Shadow Punch
3) Smite
4) Soul Drain
5) Dark Consumption
6) Shadow Maul
7) Midnight Grasp
8) Cloak of Darkness
9) Fearsome Stare

Go Sunstorm! Go Castle! Go someone else!

[/ QUOTE ]


Actually Synapse and I have been puzzling over the dark sets. Just for fun, I'll shed some light on the subject.


So, lets start this with a riddle, since the explanation is just as incomprehensible. Why does Dark Miasma overlapping Dark Control powers make a straight port of Dark Manipulation problematic?


The explanation is, there are a couple powersets that would be sharing an interesting combination of powers. For example, Controllers want Dark Control and Dark Miasma, except Dark Miasma is already a very control heavy set which would supply a lot of Dark Controls powers. Combining Dark/Dark this way could lead to a lot of overalap.

Dominators would want Dark Control and Dark Assault, so Dark Assault would have to be careful not to include control powers from Dark Blast or Dark melee.

Blasters are easier, however the powers that go to blasters would likely be included in Dark Assault, which goes opposite dark control.

Then there are the general AT wide no-no's. Such as: giving armor powers to non-armored classes, or overlapping powers alread in patron pools.


So in the end, it's not designing one powerset. It's designing 3 different powersets:

Dark Control/Dark Miasma for Controllers
Dark Control/Dark Assault for Dominators
Dark Blast/Dark Manipulation for Blasters


Well, that's enough "dark" for several posts. And no, nothing is in the works yet.

[/ QUOTE ]Ok then fine, whats the hold on illusion control for doms? This is the most wanted powerset for this AT and it gets denied again and again. Dont give me that crap that most of the power wouldnt work with domination, because with the recent changes to the AT its really a non-issue now. Give us dark illusion and dark assault.

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Posted

[ QUOTE ]
Ok then fine, whats the hold on illusion control for doms? This is the most wanted powerset for this AT and it gets denied again and again. Dont give me that crap that most of the power wouldnt work with domination, because with the recent changes to the AT its really a non-issue now. Give us dark illusion and dark assault.

[/ QUOTE ]

it is the MOST wanted powerset for Doms ? cite please.

Elec control fro Doms (and trollers) is certainly wanted by a significant number of folks.


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Posted

[ QUOTE ]
I'm always happy to see power sets proliferated, so please don't take this post as a sour grapes post. With that said, is anyone a little disappointed that the most wanted sets weren't proliferated.

Here's what would've made me jump for joy:

Blasters -Dark Blast (though I admit, Rad Blast is a fine choice)

Brutes - Regeneration

Controller - Dark Miasma

Corruptor - Poison (though Trick Arrow was a fine choice too)

Defender - Poison

Dominator - Illusion

MM - Kinetics

Scrapper - Super strength or energy melee or fire epic powers

Stalker - Shields or fire melee

Tanker - Spines or energy aura

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree on almost everything. Perfect list.

And even then... I'm so happy to see some new proliferation I've been eagerly waiting for months that nothing can spoil my enthusiasm !

I'm pretty sure we'll get a large part of your list in the next rounds

 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]

Dark Control/Dark Miasma for Controllers
Dark Control/Dark Assault for Dominators
Dark Blast/Dark Manipulation for Blasters


[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is made a lot easier if you just say "there isnt a dark control set" ... therefore you simply port Dark Miasma to Controllers as a secondary and dont make a Dark Control primary. Instead, give Illusion Control to Dominators. The power customization will let people tint the powers to be dark to match. Then you only have to worry about a dark assault set for Dominators. And frankly, with color customization, you really dont, since one could color the energy blasts dark.

Lewis

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"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan

 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]
Ok then fine, whats the hold on illusion control for doms? This is the most wanted powerset for this AT and it gets denied again and again. Dont give me that crap that most of the power wouldnt work with domination, because with the recent changes to the AT its really a non-issue now. Give us dark illusion and dark assault.

[/ QUOTE ]

And here I thought it was the most wanted powerset for masterminds.

To say it "gets denied" implies its ever even been visited: its possible its simply never come up as a proliferation target yet for someone to say "no" to. Picking other sets first as higher priorities for proliferation is not the same thing as saying no to Illusion.

Also, I'm not sure there actually are major problems with proliferating Illusion to dominators (at least, not balance-related ones) but if there were, Domination would not be at the top of my list. Giving Superior Invisibility and indestructible tanks to something with assault sets would be higher.

And finally, "if you weren't full of crap you'd give me what I demand" is only sweet talk in the original Klingon.

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Posted

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[ QUOTE ]

Hope springs eternal and you have brought some sun into my dark places.


[/ QUOTE ]

*snicker* No straight lines, PLEASE! So not going there.

/JK

[/ QUOTE ]

My variant of that, which I use at work frequently:

Hope springs eternal where dead fools like I lay...

 

Posted

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Then there are the general AT wide no-no's. Such as: giving armor powers to non-armored classes.

[/ QUOTE ]

easy fix

Dark Sheild (buff)
"Murkey Sheild protects target alley from cold/fire/negative/energy and hold effect"

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Posted

[ QUOTE ]
So in the end, it's not designing one powerset. It's designing 3 different powersets:

Dark Control/Dark Miasma for Controllers
Dark Control/Dark Assault for Dominators
Dark Blast/Dark Manipulation for Blasters

[/ QUOTE ]


Here you go, with 100% proliferation. (I took a bit from the NPCs.) Just tweak the numbers for balance.


[u]Dark Control[u]
Gravimetric Snare S/L Dam, Immob, -Recharge, -Speed
Cloak of Fear Toggle: PBAoE, Foe: Fear, -To-Hit
Shadow Cloak Toggle; +Perception, +Def, +Stealth +Res(Immob)
Chill of the Night Toggle: PBAoE, Neg DoT, -Acc
Mask of Vitiation -Def, -Reg, -Speed
Dark Extraction Summon Essence
Summon Spirit From Necro's Soul Extraction
Oppressive Gloom Toggle: PBAoE, Foe Disorient, Self -Hit Points
Dark Imps Black Swan's Imps

[u]Dark Assault[u]
Dark Blast Ranged, Moderate Damage (Negative), Foe: -To Hit
Shadow Punch Melee, Minor Damage(Smashing/Negative), Foe -To-Hit
Dark Nova Detonation Neg Dam Sphere, 50% KB, -Recharge -Speed
Fearsome Stare Ranged (Cone), Foe Fear, -To Hit
Shadow Maul Melee(Cone), High Damage over Time(Smashing/Negative), Foe -To-Hit
Tenebrous Tentacles Ranged(Cone), Minor DoT(Neg), Foe: Immob, -To Hit
Night Fall Ranged(Cone), Moderate Damage over Time(Negative), Foe: -To Hit
Midnight Grasp Melee, Superior Damage(Negative), Foe Immobilize, -To-Hit
Blackstar PBAoE, Extreme Damage(Negative), Self: -Recovery, Foe: -To Hit

[u]Dark Manipulation[u]
Tar Patch Ranged Targeted area of effect, Target -Speed, -Resistance, -Fly
Smite Melee, Moderate Damage(Smashing/Negative), Foe -To-Hit
Chill of the Night Toggle: PBAoE, Neg DoT, -Acc
Shadow Maul Melee(Cone), High Damage over Time(Smashing/Negative), Foe -To-Hit
Fearsome Stare Ranged (Cone), Foe Fear, -To Hit
Siphon Life Melee, Moderate Damage(Negative), Foe -To-Hit, Self +Hit Points
Soul Drain Point Blank Area of Effect Moderate Damage (Negative), Self +Damage, +To Hit
Darkest Night Toggle: Ranged Targeted area of effect, Foe -Damage, Foe -To Hit
Midnight Grasp Melee, Superior Damage(Negative), Foe Immobilize, -To-Hit

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Posted

With all due respect Zombie (lots and lots), those sets won't work as the appropriate sets. They just won't. My suggestions:

Blaster Dark Blast:
1: Dark Blast
1: Gloom
2: Night Fall
6: Moonbeam
8: Aim
12: Torrent
18: Life Drain (+Damage, -Range, +Damage, +Rech, +Damage)
26: Dark Obliteration (Looks like Dark Pit but deals damage)
32: Blackstar

Blaster Dark Manipulation
Ideas:
-'troller ST Immob (Shadow Grasp?)
-Shadow Punch
-Smite
-Cloak of Shadows?
-Siphon Life? As 38?
-Touch of Fear?
-Build Up OR Soul Drain
-Dark Consumption?
-Death Shroud?

Controller Dark Miasma
1: Twilight Grasp
2: Tar Patch
4: Darkest Night
10: Howling Twilight
16: Shadow Fall
20: Torrent (KD, +dam, -tohit)
28: Petrifying Gaze
35: Black Hole
38: Dark Servant

Controller/Dominator Dark Control
Throwing out ideas here:
-ST Hold ties enemy to ground with dark tentacles
-AoE Hold is a wider-cone Tenebrous Tentacles
-Petrifying Gaze here
-Chill of the Night would work here, for once (see Hot Feet, Arctic Air).
-Shadow Knight? (Shadow Punch, Smite, Dark Blast, Death Shroud)

Dominator Dark Assault
This one's gonna be tricky. The two "trick" powers from Dark Melee are already taken up by Soul Mastery

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Posted

Skarmory,

A Dark Miasma for Controllers without Fearsome stare pretty much sucks. Dark Miasma isnt any more effective than Rad Emission, and wouldnt be any more unbalanced for controllers, and Rad is strong, but fine. Don't suggest neutering the Dark Miasma set. Just adjust the numbers/recharge if needed. Don't drop powers. Then it isnt Dark Miasma.

Lewis

Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan

 

Posted

Here's my crack at it. While I'm not an expert on controllers/dominators, I don't think my version is Dark Control is too overlappy with either Miasma or my Dark Assault (unless you count Miasma's fears OP'd to be combined with control primaries I suppose)


Dark Blast-Blasters

Dark Blast
Gloom
Torrent
Aim
Petrifying Gaze
Moon Beam
Night Fall
Dark Sentinel (Like Voltaic Sentinel, just...darky)
Blackstar

Dark Manipulation-Blasters

Touch of Fear
Shadow Punch
Mire (no -spd/recharge or +dmg/tohit, just a moderate pbaoe)
Build up
Smite
Shadow Maul
Death Shroud
Dark Consumption
Midnight Grasp

Dark Control- Controllers/Dominators

Soul Freeze (single target hold, -tohit)
Murky Depths (single target immob, -tohit)
Dark Snare (AOE immob -tohit, no -rech/spd)
Black Cloud (AOE -tohit/perception like Smoke)
Dark Pit
Black Rain (like rain of fire animation, only dark-ish and reverse [from the ground to the sky]. AOE hold)
Banish (like Dimension shift)
Dark Step (like hot feet)
Soul Hunters (Meld of Photon Seekers and Dark Extraction, summon 3 Soul Hunters (like Photon Seekers, from a defeated foe)


Dark Miasma-Untouched

Twilight Grasp
Tar Patch
Darkest Night
Howling Twilight
Shadow Fall
Fearsome Stare
Petrifying Gaze
Black Hole
Dark Servant

Dark Assault-Dominators

Dark Blast
Smite
Gloom
Shadow Maul
Powerboost/aim/build up (probably Power boost)
Sunless Mire (take away -recharge/spd and dmg/tohit buffs, add -tohit)
Moonbeam
Midnight Grasp
Dark Sentinel (Like voltaic, just dark-y)

 

Posted

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Then there are the general AT wide no-no's. Such as: giving armor powers to non-armored classes, or overlapping powers alread in patron pools.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about the overlapping power: Conserve Power from electric armor which tanks and scrappers are soon getting? Those AT's both get Conserve power in their epic pools. Or did you only mean patron pool and not epic?

 

Posted

Come on now, wouldn't be fair if they didn't stick to it: Heroes are the exception to this rule, not villains.

 

Posted

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[ QUOTE ]

Then there are the general AT wide no-no's. Such as: giving armor powers to non-armored classes, or overlapping powers alread in patron pools.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about the overlapping power: Conserve Power from electric armor which tanks and scrappers are soon getting? Those AT's both get Conserve power in their epic pools. Or did you only mean patron pool and not epic?

[/ QUOTE ]
I am holding out hope that Conserve Power is getting the axe from Ela for something wonderful. That being said, Widows can take Follow Up and be denied the ability to take Aim. I imagine they could make it so that if you take Electric Armor:Conserve Power you are denied the ability to take APP:Conserve Power (and vice-versa).

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Posted

I agree who ever said TA (and Storm and I would argue Rad too)..

if you are worried about too much control - think of it this way..

a Singularity can hold, immob and lev, a Dark Servent has holds, fears, immobs and aoe heals - effectivly doubling your control powers. granted they are not predictable but in pve my Dark Servent can control a mob a lot better than most controllers I have teamed with.

 

Posted

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With all due respect Zombie (lots and lots), those sets won't work as the appropriate sets. They just won't.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously I disagree with you about them working.

But I'm curious to know why they 'just won't' work.

[/ QUOTE ]


Maybe the fact you were giving a Blaster tar patch at level 1?

 

Posted

So i made a copy of this from Sunstorms response to Dark powers and what they have to deal with to proliferate them for trollers, doms and stuff. . .

Then there are the general AT wide no-no's. Such as: giving armor powers to non-armored classes, or overlapping powers alread in patron pools.

Now i know this is totally the wrong place for this question, proly should be in the Stalker section, but it could also be okay here coz it doesnt just deal with my main worry... which is... because HIBERNATE is a patron power for stalkers, does that then mean we will never have Ice Armor? Or if we have Ice Armor, would it be without HIBERNATE? i always thought HIBERNATE would be the tier 9 power.

Seriously i have been dreaming of an Ice Melee / Ice Armor Stalker since i first heard of proliferation!


Any answers? Ideas?
Thanks
drg

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Posted

Just like Ice armor apparently wouldn't work for brutes because of the -recharge, but apparently having a defensive set with two mez toggles does work for brutes.

 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]
Just like Ice armor apparently wouldn't work for brutes because of the -recharge, but apparently having a defensive set with two mez toggles does work for brutes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stalkers are not Brutes.

the slow wouldn't come from chilling embrace, when i think of ice for stalker i think ice patch would take chilling embrace place on the armor side and chilling embrace and icicles would be taken out completly
ah heck, it'd look like this in my world

ice melee ---------------------- ice armour

frozen fist ------------------------- hide
ice sword --------------------------frozen armor
frost breath -----------------------glacial armor
assassin chill----------------------wet ice
build up----------------------------permafrost
placate-----------------------------hoarfrost
frozen touch-----------------------ice patch
greater ice sword-----------------energy absorbtion
frozen aura------------------------hibernate


in my dream world

sorry . . .

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Posted

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just like Ice armor apparently wouldn't work for brutes because of the -recharge, but apparently having a defensive set with two mez toggles does work for brutes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stalkers are not Brutes.

the slow wouldn't come from chilling embrace, when i think of ice for stalker i think ice patch would take chilling embrace place on the armor side and chilling embrace and icicles would be taken out completly
ah heck, it'd look like this in my world

ice melee ---------------------- ice armour

frozen fist ------------------------- hide
ice sword --------------------------frozen armor
frost breath -----------------------glacial armor
assassin chill----------------------wet ice
build up----------------------------permafrost
placate-----------------------------hoarfrost
frozen touch-----------------------ice patch
greater ice sword-----------------energy absorbtion
frozen aura------------------------hibernate


in my dream world

sorry . . .

[/ QUOTE ]


...I know they're not duhhh, just relating the two because they both haven't gotten it yet. A reason was specifically given (retardedly) for brutes I don't think there was one for stalkers.

 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]
But I'm curious to know why they 'just won't' work.

[/ QUOTE ]You asked for it.

Manipulation:
Should have: A few blaps, self-buffs, minor control.
You gave it: Dark Miasma's four most powerful AoE debuffs, a powerful AoE control, Dark Melee's entire chain.

Assault:
Should have: 2-3 light to medium ranged attacks, 2-3 light to heavy melee attacks, 1-3 toy powers, 1-2 AoE powers, 0-1 snipe
You gave it: one powerful AoE debuff, one powerful AoE control, a nuke, five AoE damage powers.

Control:
Should have: A ST immob, a AoE immob, a ST hold, a AoE hold on a long timer, 1-3 soft AoEs, a pet or equivalent, some odds and ends.
You gave it: Not one hold, a ST immob, a tiny fear, a tiny minion-only stun, a cripplingly powerful ST debuff,

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Posted

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But I'm curious to know why they 'just won't' work.

[/ QUOTE ]You asked for it.

Manipulation:
Should have: A few blaps, self-buffs, minor control.
You gave it: Dark Miasma's four most powerful AoE debuffs, a powerful AoE control, Dark Melee's entire chain.

Assault:
Should have: 2-3 light to medium ranged attacks, 2-3 light to heavy melee attacks, 1-3 toy powers, 1-2 AoE powers, 0-1 snipe
You gave it: one powerful AoE debuff, one powerful AoE control, a nuke, five AoE damage powers.

Control:
Should have: A ST immob, a AoE immob, a ST hold, a AoE hold on a long timer, 1-3 soft AoEs, a pet or equivalent, some odds and ends.
You gave it: Not one hold, a ST immob, a tiny fear, a tiny minion-only stun, a cripplingly powerful ST debuff,

[/ QUOTE ]


Well what about MY draft?

 

Posted

Sunstorm:
[ QUOTE ]
So in the end, it's not designing one powerset. It's designing 3 different powersets:

Dark Control/Dark Miasma for Controllers
Dark Control/Dark Assault for Dominators
Dark Blast/Dark Manipulation for Blasters

[/ QUOTE ]
It sounded like a challenge, so I bit:

<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>=====Dark Control=====
1--Night Shade-------Ranged (Cone)--Min (Neg)-----------Foe: Sleep, -ToHit
-----NEW-------------(rather than a ST immob)
1--Abyssal Chains----Ranged---------Mod DoT (Smash/Neg)-Foe: Hold, -ToHit
-----NEW-------------(basic hold)
2--Dark Coercion-----Ranged-----------------------------Foe: Confuse
-----NEW-------------(basic confuse)
6--Binding Shadows---Targeted (AoE)-Min DoT (Smash/Neg)-Foe: Immob, -ToHit, -Fly
-----NEW-------------(basic AoE immob)
8--Netherworld Snare-Location (PB)--Min DoT (Neg)-------Foe: -Speed, -Fly
-----NEW-------------(similar to ice storm)
12-Dark Portal-------Location---------------------------Team: Recall
-----NEW-------------(removed from Gravity Control)
18-Gorgon’s Eye------Ranged (Cone)--Min (Neg)-----------Foe: Hold, -ToHit
-----NEW-------------(wide arc rather than an AoE)
26-Complete Darkness-Targeted (AoE)---------------------Foe: -Perc, -ToHit
-----NEW-------------(smoke with way more -ToHit)
32-Reanimation-------Ranged-----------------------------Foe: Revive, Confuse (Special)
-----NEW-------------(revive fallen foe, they follow confused rules, after a set time,
---------------------it dies again with no reward. Works 100% on all enemies but higher
---------------------classes last a shorter duration)

=====Dark Manipulation=====
1--Smite
2--Night Shade-------Ranged (Cone)--Min (Neg)-----------Foe: Sleep, -ToHit
-----NEW-------------(rather than a ST immob)
4--Death Shroud
10-Shadow Maul
16-Build Up
20-Petrifying Gaze
28-Netherworld Snare-Location (PB)--Min DoT (Neg)-------Foe: -Speed, -Fly
-----NEW-------------(similar to ice storm)
35-Dark Consumption
38-Midnight Grasp

=====Dark Assault=====
1--Dark Blast
2--Smite
3--Gloom
10-Shadow Maul
16-Aim
20-Moonbeam
28-Night Fall
35-Midnight Grasp
38-Shadow Destruction-Close---------High (Neg)----------Foe: -ToHit
-----NEW--------------(basic Close, High damage attack)
</pre><hr />

That seems plausible...the sets are similar to sets we currently have yet they have their own flare. Also, it only calls for 10 new powers, since it leaves Dark Blast and Dark Miasma as they are.

It didn't take me that long to do that, Sunstorm and Castle, I don't see what the hold up is