Power set proliferation...could've been better
By
13th_Stranger,
Posted on: 2009-07-16 24:59 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Yes please!!
My level 50 Dominators:
Madame Mindbender 50 Mind/Energy
Fly Agaric 50 Plant/Thorn
Nate Nitro 50 Fire/Psi
Wow I got a lot of hate. 
Although changing the inherent powers is a good point. Vigilance in particular seems very lackluster but I think many people agree with that. I didn't say I hated proliferation, just that it made me sad when they gave plants to the controllers. I'm sure controllers loved getting to play with plants when they got them. It's just a personal irk of mine since when I started I felt they belonged to doms since they were the only people who had them then.
I'm not trying to turn this into some kind of weird troll post or anything. Hell I thought I was being polite. I could have posted something RAGE FILLED in ALL CAPS and been really obnoxious about it if I was trying to annoy people. I just wondered if anybody else felt miffed when a archetype has one of it's power sets shared.
It's kind of like a kid who wants the candy all for himself but knows that giving half of it to his friend will make him feel better in the long run. He's still miffed about not having the candy to himself but he feels better since it made other people happy. That's pretty much how I feel about it in a nutshell. So if I really annoyed somebody I guess I'm sorry that wasn't my intention. I'm going to go hide now...
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I've always been annoyed that controllers got plant control. I mean Controllers had their own primary (Illusion) and doms had plants, but then they gave it to Controllers and Doms didn't get illusions? I felt cheated. Not necessarily because I wanted an illusion dominator it was just a matter of principle. I mean proliferation gives you some odd combos and sometimes it give you some very weird ones as well. Dual Blade Stalkers (who don't seem to work) and Ice Brutes (I know they never made the final cut) come to mind. But sometimes I like that a class has a power set to themselves. Too much proliferation of the power sets and the individuality of the archetypes seems muddled.
And before anyone goes off on this I know if you played a Stone/Stone Tank and a Stone/Stone brute they'll end up very different but I still like the idea of archetypes having their own power sets that nobody else gets.
Oh well, at least Masterminds will always have their own primaries 
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Actually. Before the first round of proliferation...Trollers had TWO unique Control Sets (Earth & Illusion) vs Dom's ONE unique Control Set (Plant).
So they each gave each other a unique.
So, it's not like Dom's havent gotten a Troller unique set.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Too much proliferation of the power sets and the[u] individuality of the archetypes seems muddled. [u]
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So?
Why do the ATs have to be unique and beautiful snowflakes? And assuming they do, why can't the inherent powers handle that task?
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The ATs are unique (thought not always beautiful) ATs.
Look at the melee classes...they all play different and feel different.
I don't know about anyone else, but playing a Troller and playing a Dom, feels completely different.
In fact, playing my Dom, I feel like I'm just playing a better blaster.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Wow I got a lot of hate.
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Don't mistake a lot of words for a lot of hate. Just because I have a lot to say on the issue doesn't mean I'm mad at you.
I team with the Repeat Offenders.
<QR>
I am reatly disappointed Defenders didn't get Thermal Radiation this round coming. I have been hoping for it for Defenders, so I can get the set's higher powers quicker, mainly, since proliferation was announced. I can stand Traps as a secondary, but Thermal not so much, plus I had ideas for it...
With love,
Me <3
My Characters
Story Arcs Looking for Feedback:
Serving Vengeance:#419748 (For Villains/Vigilantes) (Drama/Mystery) (Viable Within Canon)
Dark Moon Rising: #13170 (For Heroes/Vigilantes) (Horror/Mystery) (Non-Canon)
Here is where people differ. Im so stoked for traps and have been wanting it since proliferation first came about. I don't really care about thermal however.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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Here is where people differ. Im so stoked for traps and have been wanting it since proliferation first came about. I don't really care about thermal however.
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Yeah, many seem to share your sentiment. Most I have seen seem to care more about Traps and Poison. I have yet to see anyone else say "i wantz mah thermal" like I have. I'll be vocal about it when people ask, but I will still suck it up when I don't get it. When I see the announcement that Thermal Radiatio is coming expect me to jump up and down with a "HURRAY!" Until then, you folks have fun with your Defender Proliferations. ;p
With Love,
Me! <3
My Characters
Story Arcs Looking for Feedback:
Serving Vengeance:#419748 (For Villains/Vigilantes) (Drama/Mystery) (Viable Within Canon)
Dark Moon Rising: #13170 (For Heroes/Vigilantes) (Horror/Mystery) (Non-Canon)
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I just wondered if anybody else felt miffed when a archetype has one of it's power sets shared.
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Nope. Could care less if powersets get spread around, the more the merrier.
I AM, however, still highly annoyed that stalkers were given a better version of the scrapper inherent, on TOP of their ability to guarantee a critical by being in Hide.
Not annoyed to the point of a ragequit, but it is irritating. Not only does another AT have the same ability as my beloved scrappers, but they're better at it.
Edit: A fix that would make me happy and not at all annoyed anymore: Give scrappers the same percentage increase for teammates being in range that stalkers got.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
We're all losing focus on the important issue here. Convincing someone in NCSoft to write up the full proposal for the Dark Manipulation secondary for blasters. 
1) Gravimetric Snare (it needs a name change)
2) Shadow Punch
3) Smite
4) Soul Drain
5) Dark Consumption
6) Shadow Maul
7) Midnight Grasp
8) Cloak of Darkness
9) Fearsome Stare
Go Sunstorm! Go Castle! Go someone else!
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Well I am glad to hear there is more proliferation. I like most of them and can't wait to build my Electric armor/SS tank. I am glad to see claws for Brutes and I wanted it more than either of the swords.
Things I hoped to see or hope are coming soon TM.
Corruptors: Defender Psi Blast --- I have been waiting for this since Issue 6.
Dominators: Illusion or Dark Control
Brutes: Broad Sword.
Blasters: Dark Blast
Still wondering about Psi Melee and Electric hammer from the poll oh so long ago.
Pinnacle
Arch light L50 INV/SS
Psiberia L50 Kin/Psi
Screaming Mentallica L50 Sonic/MM
Infinity
Arc Voltinator L50 SS/Elec
Mind Fire Kinesis L50 Fire/Kin
Flaming Screamer L50 Fire/Sonic
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We're all losing focus on the important issue here. Convincing someone in NCSoft to write up the full proposal for the Dark Manipulation secondary for blasters.
1) Gravimetric Snare (it needs a name change)
2) Shadow Punch
3) Smite
4) Soul Drain
5) Dark Consumption
6) Shadow Maul
7) Midnight Grasp
8) Cloak of Darkness
9) Fearsome Stare
Go Sunstorm! Go Castle! Go someone else!
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Actually Synapse and I have been puzzling over the dark sets. Just for fun, I'll shed some light on the subject.
So, lets start this with a riddle, since the explanation is just as incomprehensible. Why does Dark Miasma overlapping Dark Control powers make a straight port of Dark Manipulation problematic?
The explanation is, there are a couple powersets that would be sharing an interesting combination of powers. For example, Controllers want Dark Control and Dark Miasma, except Dark Miasma is already a very control heavy set which would supply a lot of Dark Controls powers. Combining Dark/Dark this way could lead to a lot of overalap.
Dominators would want Dark Control and Dark Assault, so Dark Assault would have to be careful not to include control powers from Dark Blast or Dark melee.
Blasters are easier, however the powers that go to blasters would likely be included in Dark Assault, which goes opposite dark control.
Then there are the general AT wide no-no's. Such as: giving armor powers to non-armored classes, or overlapping powers alread in patron pools.
So in the end, it's not designing one powerset. It's designing 3 different powersets:
Dark Control/Dark Miasma for Controllers
Dark Control/Dark Assault for Dominators
Dark Blast/Dark Manipulation for Blasters
Well, that's enough "dark" for several posts. And no, nothing is in the works yet.
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Actually Synapse and I have been puzzling over the dark sets.
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Woot. Go my favorite Dev team!
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So in the end, it's not designing one powerset. It's designing 3 different powersets:
Dark Control/Dark Miasma for Controllers
Dark Control/Dark Assault for Dominators
Dark Blast/Dark Manipulation for Blasters
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More Woot! Glad to see the tease. 
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Blasters are easier, however the powers that go to blasters would likely be included in Dark Assault, which goes opposite dark control.
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Dominator Assault sets are always a bit different from their blastery counterparts anyway. I defy your need to hold back the blaster Dark proliferation until a later time.
Hope springs eternal and you have brought some sun into my dark places.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Hope springs eternal and you have brought some sun into my dark places.
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*snicker* No straight lines, PLEASE! So not going there.
/JK
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Dark Control/Dark Miasma for Controllers
Dark Control/Dark Assault for Dominators
Dark Blast/Dark Manipulation for Blasters
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Just to say it, I see this as working very much like Psi Blast for Defenders. When it was ported to Dominators to make Psi Assault, a number of new powers had to be invented, including some melee. Then when Psi was Proliferated to Blasters, Psi Blast and Psi Manipulation was made up of powers from Defender Psi Blast and Psi Assault. (Plus World of Confusion)
The net result is that Defender Psi Blast got two powers pulled out of it, Subdue and Psychic Scream, and put into Psi Manipulation. Working backwards, we could say that Defenders got Psionic Dart and Psychic Focus taken out of Psi Blast, and got Subdual and Psychic Scream from the Blaster Secondary.
Likely the same thing is going to happen to Dark Blast, which will probably end up gaining a Build Up power anyway. Dark Miasma could similarly end up losing some powers that go into Dark Control, and trading them for powers more useful to a Controller, such as Dark Pit, or even Torrent. (Tentacles or Life Drain, I think, might be a bit too much damage when paired with Containment. However, Tentacles or a sphere AoE variant could be Dark Control's AoE immobilize)
The good side is, Dark Melee already exists, so Shadow Maul, Shadow Punch, Touch of Fear and all the rest are all ready to go. And you know, while the idea of giving Blasters and Dominators a heal seems risky (not to mention all that -Acc...) it just wouldn't be Dark without feeding on the life force of others. So if not Life Drain, perhaps Soul Drain? You get a heal, but you've got to go into melee to get it...
Or perhaps, if that seems too much, a form of regeneration that feeds off foes. Not Dark Regeneration, of course, that's not a regeneration power, it's a heal, but a power that boosts your HP regen rate based on the number of foes you drain with the power. It seems like an AoE toggle is the obvious implementation, but it could be similar to Drain Psyche, only draining HP instead of regen and recovery.
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The explanation is, there are a couple powersets that would be sharing an interesting combination of powers. For example, Controllers want Dark Control and Dark Miasma, except Dark Miasma is already a very control heavy set which would supply a lot of Dark Controls powers. Combining Dark/Dark this way could lead to a lot of overalap.
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Two words.
Trick arrow.
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Hope springs eternal and you have brought some sun into my dark places.
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*snicker* No straight lines, PLEASE! So not going there.
/JK
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I still can't believe that no one has yet offered to make you a better avatar than that one, Sunstorm. I mean, I am NOT a graphical guru, I just made that one in an hour working in Windows Paint... I'm SURE someone here could do better than that for you!
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The explanation is, there are a couple powersets that would be sharing an interesting combination of powers. For example, Controllers want Dark Control and Dark Miasma, except Dark Miasma is already a very control heavy set which would supply a lot of Dark Controls powers. Combining Dark/Dark this way could lead to a lot of overalap.
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Two words.
Trick arrow.
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He doesn't mean overlap as in Ice Arrow and Block of Ice. He means overlap as in Block of Ice and Block of Ice.
Dark Control would have the exact same power with the exact same name as one currently in Dark Miasma. Personally, I see this as meaning Fearsome Stare and Parylizing Gaze. Possibly Black Hole. It would fit with Dimension Shift.
Dark Servant could also be redundant, but I see Dark Control getting something like MM's Lich, which actually does damage. While it might be redundant to have both a Dark Servant and a Superior Dark Servant (whatever) MM's currently have that situation anyway. Of course, they got Dark Servant nerfed because of it...
Sunstorm: you bringup some interesting and fairly logical points there.
heres the thing though: the reason a lot of folks want some more dark type powers where there are none (dark miasma secondary for controllers for example) is for that extra bit of control. its one of the reasons i love my earth/storm controller so much. his damge output is low but he can control most situations in a variety of ways and that helps keep it interesting.
Similar reason for no EA for Scrapper/Tanks I imagine. Can we say perma-conserves?
Just curious. Do you feel that the issue is wholly different with TA which has both a ST and AOE hold power?
Sermon
@sermon
One of Six, Cannibal 6
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Similar reason for no EA for Scrapper/Tanks I imagine. Can we say perma-conserves?
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Right. I'm guessing we're going to find out very soon if Electric Scrappers and Tanks are going to get Conserve Power or something new.
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Just curious. Do you feel that the issue is wholly different with TA which has both a ST and AOE hold power?
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One thing I noticed about both Ice Arrow and Petrifying Gaze is that they do no damage. So they would NOT substitute straight for a Controller single target hold. (1.0 scale damage would need to be added)
I'm betting Dark Control gets Fearsome Stare (with less -Acc and more fear -- well actually just the AT mods should be fine) Black Hole, and a different Dark Servant. I also bet Dark Pit replaces one of them.
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Similar reason for no EA for Scrapper/Tanks I imagine. Can we say perma-conserves?
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Right. I'm guessing we're going to find out very soon if Electric Scrappers and Tanks are going to get Conserve Power or something new.
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Wow. I totally forgot about ELA having it. Interesting.
Sermon
@sermon
One of Six, Cannibal 6
Sunstorm, I guess a big question here is: how willing are you to modify Dark Misma should it be proliferated to controllers?
Additionally: does the "if we give dark assault they will also want dark misma (or viseversa) also means you acknowledge the desire for electric control for dominators?
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Sunstorm, I guess a big question here is: how willing are you to modify Dark Misma should it be proliferated to controllers?
Additionally: does the "if we give dark assault they will also want dark misma (or viseversa) also means you acknowledge the desire for electric control for dominators?
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i think the other thing is how can they arrange it so that Dark control is a different experience than say a dark/dark/dark defender which can has cones for immobilzes, stuns and fear , an aoe phase shift, as well as a single target hold and even a pbaoe stun. thats a lot of control for a defender. thats not even including all the control that the dark servant brings with it.
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I've always been annoyed that controllers got plant control. I mean Controllers had their own primary (Illusion) and doms had plants, but then they gave it to Controllers and Doms didn't get illusions? I felt cheated. Not necessarily because I wanted an illusion dominator it was just a matter of principle. I mean proliferation gives you some odd combos and sometimes it give you some very weird ones as well. Dual Blade Stalkers (who don't seem to work) and Ice Brutes (I know they never made the final cut) come to mind. But sometimes I like that a class has a power set to themselves. Too much proliferation of the power sets and the individuality of the archetypes seems muddled.
And before anyone goes off on this I know if you played a Stone/Stone Tank and a Stone/Stone brute they'll end up very different but I still like the idea of archetypes having their own power sets that nobody else gets.
Oh well, at least Masterminds will always have their own primaries
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<reductio ad absurdum>
I've always been annoyed that Huge characters can have Energy Blast. My normally-proportioned Male characters just don't feel unique enough. I have a Male character who's an Energy Blaster, and every time I see a Huge character with Energy Blast I just die a little inside. Why play a Male Energy Blaster if someone else can play a Huge Energy Blaster?
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I do not believe that this argument makes any more or less sense if you replace archetype with body type, hair color, gender, origin, or whether your character's name begins with a vowel or consonant. Powerset combinations are not "unique". Other people can play them. They can play them on characters similar to yours. They can play them on characters different from yours. "Archetype" is just one more variable. If someone can play the same powerset as you with different power choices, power pools, slotting, enhancements, body type, gender, costume, name, and origin, why does the last thing they can change -- the archetype -- suddenly make all the difference, and make you "not unique"?
I team with the Repeat Offenders.