Power set proliferation...could've been better
By
13th_Stranger,
Posted on: 2009-07-16 24:59 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe next time. 
[/ QUOTE ]
Semi-related: Castle, can you at least confirm or deny that the list shown on the site (Rad Blast for Blasters, etc) is comprehensive? Is it just a 'these are some of' list, or is that all the ones being ported? Just to direct the speculation from here, so we don't get several months of "But there could be more!" if there isn't going to be.
[/ QUOTE ]
If it is the same list I saw last week, and I am 99% certain it is, then it contains everything being proliferated in I16.
[/ QUOTE ]
You guys can probably blame me for these sets. I specifically asked them to proliferate sets that wouldn't require new animations or VFX, as we're already swamped with supporting power customization. We had to make one new animation for Broadsword Stalkers, but other than that they were able to directly port everything over or at least pull powers and visuals from existing powersets.
[/ QUOTE ]
SS and EM are that difficult to port?
[/ QUOTE ]
no, but they tend to not port over more than one of a set type per AT.
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
[ QUOTE ]
Nope. It's not overpowered. I've played Kinetics MMs.
[/ QUOTE ]
You have? Would you please tell us the secret of playing a combination that doesn't exist yet? I'm really curious!
As to claiming that they're not overpowered, would you care to actually show any data supporting that conclusion?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe next time.
[/ QUOTE ]
Semi-related: Castle, can you at least confirm or deny that the list shown on the site (Rad Blast for Blasters, etc) is comprehensive? Is it just a 'these are some of' list, or is that all the ones being ported? Just to direct the speculation from here, so we don't get several months of "But there could be more!" if there isn't going to be.
[/ QUOTE ]
If it is the same list I saw last week, and I am 99% certain it is, then it contains everything being proliferated in I16.
[/ QUOTE ]
You guys can probably blame me for these sets. I specifically asked them to proliferate sets that wouldn't require new animations or VFX, as we're already swamped with supporting power customization. We had to make one new animation for Broadsword Stalkers, but other than that they were able to directly port everything over or at least pull powers and visuals from existing powersets.
[/ QUOTE ]
SS and EM are that difficult to port?
[/ QUOTE ]
EM on Stalkers is reduced in effect. ET cannot crit (because it would do more than AS), and TF's crit is only +33% instead of +100% (because it would also do more than AS). It's intensely powerful on an AT with high base damage. Now keep in mind that Stalker's base damage is 1.00, while Scrappers are 1.125.
ET on a Tank does 202.9. On a Stalker is does 253.6 and isn't allowed to crit. On a Scrapper it would do 285.3. Scrapper BU is +100% while Tank/Stalker are +80%. Scrapper KO Blow would do 222.75 base damage, with Rage for +100% and stacking Rage for +200%.
No, it wouldn't be hard to port them. It would be hard to balance them without making them insanely overpowered or really weak and useless.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
|
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Nope. It's not overpowered. I've played Kinetics MMs.
[/ QUOTE ]
You have? Would you please tell us the secret of playing a combination that doesn't exist yet? I'm really curious!
As to claiming that they're not overpowered, would you care to actually show any data supporting that conclusion?
[/ QUOTE ]
Sure. I've played a Corruptor with Kinetics and no primary while two-boxing a Mastermind who just used his Primary.
Want to watch me do it? Want to watch a video? I can assure you I can play those two together as well as anyone could play a Kinetics MM. It's the same thing. You can go on and on about how I had two life bar totals, two endurance bars, and two toons taking aggro but it's the same thing. At no point on a MM, especially kinetics, would I be in danger of death. I can spam Transusion/Transference on myself the whole time.
Data? How about actually watching me do it? Wouldn't that be even better? How about you team up with your friend. One of you on a Kin and the other on a MM. Are you two somehow "overpowered" compared to other duos?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dominator - Illusion
[/ QUOTE ]
Doesn't mesh with the Domination inherent so it would have to be reworked to have less pets.
[/ QUOTE ]
No; it doesn't NEED the Domination inherent to affect the pets and pseudo pets; they are strong enough without it. And if it had fewer pets it would hardly be "Illusion" anyway.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
MM - Kinetics
[/ QUOTE ]
Never going to happen because of Fulcrum Shift + Pets = insanely overpowered. See the issue 5 nerfs to controller pets because having 15 fire imps out with fulcrum shift was literally unstoppable.
[/ QUOTE ]
Controller pets are stronger than MM pets ( a tradeoff for them being uncontrollable ). It's not the same. A /Kin MM won't do any more damage than any other /Kin, probably less.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Stalker - Shields or fire melee
[/ QUOTE ]
Shields doesn't mesh with most stalkers sets or the stalker theme. Fire melee functionally double but breaks theme since how stealthy is a man on fire?
[/ QUOTE ]
About as stealthy as one crawling with electricity.
Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
[ QUOTE ]
Fire melee functionally double but breaks theme since how stealthy is a man on fire?
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, with color customization...black fire...for demony type, could very well work and still be stealthy.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Nope. It's not overpowered. I've played Kinetics MMs.
[/ QUOTE ]
You have? Would you please tell us the secret of playing a combination that doesn't exist yet? I'm really curious!
As to claiming that they're not overpowered, would you care to actually show any data supporting that conclusion?
[/ QUOTE ]
Sure. I've played a Corruptor with Kinetics and no primary while two-boxing a Mastermind who just used his Primary.
[/ QUOTE ]
Interesting... cuz that's not a Kinetics MM. That's a Kinetics Corr and another MM. Not entirely the same though, I will admit that it is roughly similar if you played as you did.
Personally, I'm not entirely sure that Kinetics would be that overpowered for MMs. I not entire sure, but I believe that the change preventing pets from benefiting from recharge actually affects the MM pets as well, so Speed Boost wouldn't be disproportionately powerful in their hands. Transfusion has pretty much the same issues surrounding it as Twilight Grasp. Fulcrum Shift wouldn't be any more powerful in an MM's hands as it would in any other pet user's hands since the buff/debuff are based on the number of enemies rather than the number of total targets.
The only possible issues I could see would be tangential benefits for using high demand powers while having near full effectiveness offenses because so much of an MM's effectiveness is available without any real time animation expenditure. Increase Density wouldn't be too hard to keep on all of your pets, especially since you're not having to spend much time on anything else, but, then again, for that same reason Siphon Speed wouldn't be nearly as valuable.
My request for information wasn't construed as a way to prove you wrong. I was more a request to see the point proven either way. I can see the potential for the set being particularly powerful, but I can also see a number of reasons for the set being no more powerful than any other MM secondary or other AT kineticist. The problem that I've always had is that I've yet to see any decent information for either side of the argument.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...
Defender - Poison
...
[/ QUOTE ]
Since obviously the ability to poison people is so heroic, not to mention a very good way to "defend" other people!
You Rogue, you!
[/ QUOTE ]
But Poison Gas Arrow uses a different sense of the word "poison"?
[/ QUOTE ]
I was having this discussion with a friend of mine and we agreed Poison could easily be considered a Defender set but we think the devs should consider giving it a more heroic name like Alchemy.
[/ QUOTE ]
Then villains could easily receive Empathy.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe next time.
[/ QUOTE ]
Semi-related: Castle, can you at least confirm or deny that the list shown on the site (Rad Blast for Blasters, etc) is comprehensive? Is it just a 'these are some of' list, or is that all the ones being ported? Just to direct the speculation from here, so we don't get several months of "But there could be more!" if there isn't going to be.
[/ QUOTE ]
If it is the same list I saw last week, and I am 99% certain it is, then it contains everything being proliferated in I16.
[/ QUOTE ]
You guys can probably blame me for these sets. I specifically asked them to proliferate sets that wouldn't require new animations or VFX, as we're already swamped with supporting power customization. We had to make one new animation for Broadsword Stalkers, but other than that they were able to directly port everything over or at least pull powers and visuals from existing powersets.
[/ QUOTE ]
SS and EM are that difficult to port?
[/ QUOTE ]
EM on Stalkers is reduced in effect. ET cannot crit (because it would do more than AS), and TF's crit is only +33% instead of +100% (because it would also do more than AS). It's intensely powerful on an AT with high base damage. Now keep in mind that Stalker's base damage is 1.00, while Scrappers are 1.125.
ET on a Tank does 202.9. On a Stalker is does 253.6 and isn't allowed to crit. On a Scrapper it would do 285.3. Scrapper BU is +100% while Tank/Stalker are +80%. Scrapper KO Blow would do 222.75 base damage, with Rage for +100% and stacking Rage for +200%.
No, it wouldn't be hard to port them. It would be hard to balance them without making them insanely overpowered or really weak and useless.
[/ QUOTE ]
Bah, it's not like they're going to tone it down so much that it'll be Wet Noodle Strength by the time it's proliferated over. 
Both sets are still going to be incredible in the Scrapper lineup.
Playstation 3 - XBox 360 - Wii - PSP
Remember kids, crack is whack!
Samuel_Tow: Your avatar is... I think I like it
Only two MM pet sets (currently) focus on melee range. Only one of them doesn't evaporate under fire.
For the other 3 MM pet sets would gain practically no benefit from kin other than endurance, siphon power, and ID.
The +runspeed (+rech has no affect on the pets) would only really benefit the melee pets as the ranged ones rarely have to move.
Kin's potential to be overpowers with MM's was removed when the made pets ignore recharge and simply due to the fact that so few of the sets would even be able to use fulcrum shift without extensive goto commands and repositioning (ie reducing efficiency).
There is also a slight issue with the actual MM frequently leaving bodyguard range due to siphon speed as none of the pets could keep up with that pace unless specifically speedboosted (but they gain no +rech, so why bother really?).
[ QUOTE ]
Play on villain side a bit, specifically against the Earth Legacy Chain. There's your ranged attacks (plus Hurl).
[/ QUOTE ]
The problem there is that they're all basically the same thing - Propel with slightly different damage scales. I have more faith in BaBs than to give us a set with four blasts, three of which have identical animations. Both in that he has to know that would never be accepted, and that he seems to have a bit more pride in his work than to produce that level of crap.
Let's take a look at our possibilities.
Stone Melee provides a couple good candidates. Stone Fist, Stone Mallet, Heavy Mallet, and Seismic Smash give us plenty of melee powers to work with. Tremor is practically a shoe-in.
With the utility power, there's some options. Earth's Embrace and Fault are both strong candidates. Mud Pots would be interesting, though unlikely. And there's always the joke option - Dominators with Granite Armor.
For range, Hurl Boulder's assured. Propel Rocks/Boulder from the Legacy Chain is possible. Stone Spears from Earth Thorn Casters/Possessed Scientists also. There's also some from the Minions of Igneous - Gravel, Ryolite and Basalt Bomb. Maybe even the Crystal Shards from the DE. And Earth Explusion from the Tuatha. And there's always the classic Rock power.
There's more than the Legacy Chain who have earth-based powers.
[ QUOTE ]
Need I remind everyone here that with MOST other MMO's you have to pay seperately for these expansions. If you dont see something yet that you want, be sure it's more then likely coming down the pipe at a later time. After all, it isnt like they're almost done with issues. The game has a long long way to go.
[/ QUOTE ]That's not true at all. In most MMORPGs you get routine free updates just like we do. In some the updates come more regularly.
The stuff you pay for in other games is generally significantly more than we've gottten in any Issue. Our own forthcoming paid expansion is about the same as any other paid expansion, too, from the sounds of it.
My Going Rogue Trailer
Virtue (blue) - Wes The Mess
Virtue (red) - Jess The Best
@Razoras
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We had to make one new animation for Broadsword Stalkers, but other than that they were able to directly port everything over or at least pull powers and visuals from existing powersets.
[/ QUOTE ]
Could you perhaps tell us what the AS animation for BS is? 
[/ QUOTE ]
Sure. There's a 2 second windup, and then you stab your victim with your sword.
[/ QUOTE ]
Gotta love this guy. Completely helpful and accurate description and at the same time utterly useless
Main Hero: Flame Blade (Scrapper lvl 50; Katana/Regeneration)
Main Villain: Elenor Seahawk (Mastermind lvl 44; Necromancy/Poison)
My Arcs: #337278: Learning Curve
Fight my Brute: SMASH
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We had to make one new animation for Broadsword Stalkers, but other than that they were able to directly port everything over or at least pull powers and visuals from existing powersets.
[/ QUOTE ]
Could you perhaps tell us what the AS animation for BS is?
[/ QUOTE ]
Sure. There's a 2 second windup, and then you stab your victim with your sword.
[/ QUOTE ]
Dear Lovable BaBs,
Can we get a machete option for Broadswords?
Love,
Your Friendly Neighborhood DJ
xoxoxoxoxo
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Nope. It's not overpowered. I've played Kinetics MMs.
[/ QUOTE ]
You have? Would you please tell us the secret of playing a combination that doesn't exist yet? I'm really curious!
As to claiming that they're not overpowered, would you care to actually show any data supporting that conclusion?
[/ QUOTE ]
Sure. I've played a Corruptor with Kinetics and no primary while two-boxing a Mastermind who just used his Primary.
Want to watch me do it? Want to watch a video? I can assure you I can play those two together as well as anyone could play a Kinetics MM. It's the same thing. You can go on and on about how I had two life bar totals, two endurance bars, and two toons taking aggro but it's the same thing. At no point on a MM, especially kinetics, would I be in danger of death. I can spam Transusion/Transference on myself the whole time.
Data? How about actually watching me do it? Wouldn't that be even better? How about you team up with your friend. One of you on a Kin and the other on a MM. Are you two somehow "overpowered" compared to other duos?
[/ QUOTE ]
The only thing I have to say about Kin MMs would be - would it's heal/buffs be left alone (ala Pain Dom) or reduced like Twilight Grasp is for MMs vs other ATs?
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Need I remind everyone here that with MOST other MMO's you have to pay seperately for these expansions. If you dont see something yet that you want, be sure it's more then likely coming down the pipe at a later time. After all, it isnt like they're almost done with issues. The game has a long long way to go.
[/ QUOTE ]That's not true at all. In most MMORPGs you get routine free updates just like we do. In some the updates come more regularly.
The stuff you pay for in other games is generally significantly more than we've gottten in any Issue. Our own forthcoming paid expansion is about the same as any other paid expansion, too, from the sounds of it.
[/ QUOTE ]
My only real experience with MMOs other than City of is Everquest, and WoW.
I played EQ - the only significant update I recall them giving for free happened after I left the game. They opened up the Plane of Knowledge to the entire game even if the player didn't have Planes of Power - which basically gave you a zone where you learn real well and always know where the spell vendors, etc where. And of course linked pretty much every zone in the game WITHOUT having to wait for the boat trip or the every-15-minute port to the moon.
WoW - my friends played this, so I kinda kept up on it. I can't ever recall them talking about additions for free like we get here. Just round robin nerfs and buffs. And sometimes wholesale class re balancing when they have upped the level cap.
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
[ QUOTE ]
You guys can probably blame me for these sets.
[/ QUOTE ]
Fine, I blame you then!
Course I'm rather happy with the new sets, but don't go forgetting it's all your fault
Defenders with guns & sparky tanks have been high on my wishlist. Strength scrappers are as well and seem to fit the no extra effects rule; figure it might just be too scary good to be balanced. Ah well
Is swapping whole animations on the drawing board for more than just SS/MA? Be nice to customise a set to do all eye beam attacks for example (yeah I know, inches and miles; sorry guys)
===================================
The words you scribbled on the walls
the loss of friends you didn't have
I'll call you when the time is right
[ QUOTE ]
I'm always happy to see power sets proliferated, so please don't take this post as a sour grapes post. With that said, is anyone a little disappointed that the most wanted sets weren't proliferated.
Here's what would've made me jump for joy:
Blasters -Dark Blast (though I admit, Rad Blast is a fine choice)
Brutes - Regeneration
Controller - Dark Miasma
Corruptor - Poison (though Trick Arrow was a fine choice too)
Defender - Poison
Dominator - Illusion
MM - Kinetics
Scrapper - Super strength or energy melee or fire epic powers
Stalker - Shields or fire melee
Tanker - Spines or energy aura
[/ QUOTE ]
My 2 cents:
Blasters - Rad was my #1 choice, so yay!
Brutes - Again, Claws was my #1 choice.
Controller - Cold is a good choice IMO
Corruptor - Again, A/TA is very interesting
Defender - Poison would have been best. AR kind of feels strange for a defender.
Dominator - Would have liked to see either Katana or Martial arts mixed with various shuriken types (Toxic, Exploding, Etc) to make an assault set.
MM - Kinetics would have been my choice. Although flaming zombies seems amusing.
Scrapper - SS or Axe is what I wanted. Very disappointed in Electric Melee since it's such a garbage set. Also would like Ninjitsu.
Stalker - Would have liked Fire.
Tanker - Don't really care, since I'll never play one.
[ QUOTE ]
If it is the same list I saw last week, and I am 99% certain it is, then it contains everything being proliferated in I16.
[/ QUOTE ]
Speaking of Rad Blast, are we to expect a direct port, or will it get the Psychic Blast treatment (the removal of an AoE in favor of the matching Manipulation, toning down the damage on the control power, adding a new ST attack)?
Speaking of Radiation Manipulation, can we expect that in the future as a prequel to Radiation Melee?
What shall claim a Sky Kings' Ransom?
PPD & Resistance Epic Archetypes
[ QUOTE ]
You guys can probably blame me for these sets. I specifically asked them to proliferate sets that wouldn't require new animations or VFX, as we're already swamped with supporting power customization. We had to make one new animation for Broadsword Stalkers, but other than that they were able to directly port everything over or at least pull powers and visuals from existing powersets.
[/ QUOTE ]
BackAlleyBrawler
Did you grab a couple of the "Earth Assault" powers from the Legacy Chain "Rock Blast" style powers? (Say yes and mean it please.)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe next time.
[/ QUOTE ]
Semi-related: Castle, can you at least confirm or deny that the list shown on the site (Rad Blast for Blasters, etc) is comprehensive? Is it just a 'these are some of' list, or is that all the ones being ported? Just to direct the speculation from here, so we don't get several months of "But there could be more!" if there isn't going to be.
[/ QUOTE ]
If it is the same list I saw last week, and I am 99% certain it is, then it contains everything being proliferated in I16.
[/ QUOTE ]
You guys can probably blame me for these sets. I specifically asked them to proliferate sets that wouldn't require new animations or VFX, as we're already swamped with supporting power customization. We had to make one new animation for Broadsword Stalkers, but other than that they were able to directly port everything over or at least pull powers and visuals from existing powersets.
[/ QUOTE ]
No problem. I am giddy for some of the changes. I've already reserved Talsorian and San Andrea
@bpphantom
The Defenders of Paragon
KGB Special Section 8
[ QUOTE ]
Tanker - Don't really care, since I'll never play one.
[/ QUOTE ]
You don't see that everyday.
The plastic tips at the end of shoelaces are called aglets. Their true purpose is sinister.
--The Question, JLU
Same. I find tankers rather boring. I've made maybe 3 tankers since I started playing, and the highest is 32.
Brutes are much more my style.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe next time.
[/ QUOTE ]
Semi-related: Castle, can you at least confirm or deny that the list shown on the site (Rad Blast for Blasters, etc) is comprehensive? Is it just a 'these are some of' list, or is that all the ones being ported? Just to direct the speculation from here, so we don't get several months of "But there could be more!" if there isn't going to be.
[/ QUOTE ]
If it is the same list I saw last week, and I am 99% certain it is, then it contains everything being proliferated in I16.
[/ QUOTE ]
You guys can probably blame me for these sets. I specifically asked them to proliferate sets that wouldn't require new animations or VFX, as we're already swamped with supporting power customization. We had to make one new animation for Broadsword Stalkers, but other than that they were able to directly port everything over or at least pull powers and visuals from existing powersets.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sigh still no Brute with a giant Sword... as comic book as a burly guy with a giant sword is we still cant seem to get a brute with a sword !!!!!
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe next time.
[/ QUOTE ]
Semi-related: Castle, can you at least confirm or deny that the list shown on the site (Rad Blast for Blasters, etc) is comprehensive? Is it just a 'these are some of' list, or is that all the ones being ported? Just to direct the speculation from here, so we don't get several months of "But there could be more!" if there isn't going to be.
[/ QUOTE ]
If it is the same list I saw last week, and I am 99% certain it is, then it contains everything being proliferated in I16.
[/ QUOTE ]
You guys can probably blame me for these sets. I specifically asked them to proliferate sets that wouldn't require new animations or VFX, as we're already swamped with supporting power customization. We had to make one new animation for Broadsword Stalkers, but other than that they were able to directly port everything over or at least pull powers and visuals from existing powersets.
[/ QUOTE ]
SS and EM are that difficult to port?
"I never said thank you." - Lt. Gordon
"And you'll never have to." - the Dark Knight