Yellow Dawn II: The Revenge of Bad Mission Design


Adeon Hawkwood

 

Posted

Noticed something interesting.

Well interesting to me anyway.

Even the Lore Pets are customisable, as in you can colour both their aura AND certain parts of their armour.

Perhaps this is the reason for the lack of other pets, the Praetorian pets, using items mostly available to players, can be customised, other pets would have to be tailored to accept such customisation.

Though perhaps we are seeing the first step towards MM customisation in this, who knows.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano View Post
Noticed something interesting.

Well interesting to me anyway.

Even the Lore Pets are customisable, as in you can colour both their aura AND certain parts of their armour.

Perhaps this is the reason for the lack of other pets, the Praetorian pets, using items mostly available to players, can be customised, other pets would have to be tailored to accept such customisation.

Though perhaps we are seeing the first step towards MM customisation in this, who knows.
There are supposed to be future expansions to Lore. Nemesis was mentioned as an example.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
Yes - it was thought to be just about impossible to defeat Romulus at the end when he had such powerful help from his 3 Nictus pets.
I remember that. And now the standard tactic on many teams is to just bumrush him.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Protonic_Flux View Post
So basicly the whole Task Force/raid/whatever the hell you want to call it is only winnable if you manage to do 1 thing right. You must have the acids to close the portal within like 30 seconds of that stage of the trial beginnig. Otherwise you lose.

Yeah, great fricken idea NCsoft. As much as I applaud and approve of the Tin Mage and Apex TF's, I have to say BAF and Lambda just suck.
Wow, not even close. In fact, there is a badge for NOT using the acid. And a badge for NOT using the grenades.


Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by InfamousBrad View Post
(snips)

3) If you let the LFG Queue tool build your teams, it launches you in with a random team of 9 people which might not have any tanks, might not have any debuffs, might not have any buffs. And even if they do everything right, I'm not convinced that a randomly generated team of 9 people can finish that final stage. Also, no matter who checks what radio buttons in the LFG window, it stops adding people at 9, period, so if you are light on something or other, you will never get it.

(snip)

C) The queue tool needs to take all the people who volunteer to join a raid in progress and keep adding them until the raid is full.
So very much agree about the queue system. Need more people to be more successful, nt just mininal number and go.


I don't suffer from altitis, I enjoy every minute of it.

Thank you Devs & Community people for a great game.

So sad to be ending ):

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano View Post
Noticed something interesting.

Well interesting to me anyway.

Even the Lore Pets are customisable, as in you can colour both their aura AND certain parts of their armour.

Perhaps this is the reason for the lack of other pets, the Praetorian pets, using items mostly available to players, can be customised, other pets would have to be tailored to accept such customisation.

Though perhaps we are seeing the first step towards MM customisation in this, who knows.
Perhaps not quite the same, but many standards NPC's can be color tinted when used in the AE system. I haven't unlocked Lore yet to see the extent of what can be done with it. Could anyone confirm if it's similar to the customization of standard NPC's in AE or better?


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironblade View Post
I remember that. And now the standard tactic on many teams is to just bumrush him.
And we've just completed a BAF with the minimum 12 using a variation on that very same tactic


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

The incarnate trials are suppose to be the hardest content in the game, so there's obviously a chance people will fail, especially since it's only day 2 of i20.

Along with coordination, buff/debuffs will greatly improve your chances of success like for everything in this game. Remember you do have these little things called inspirations you can use and if you die, you can get more in the hospital.

So far I've done 6 trials (5 successful) and I'm still at 1 death on my Fire/Rad Corr.


[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by BurningChick View Post
Hey Zwillinger,

I'm feeling lousy and haven't read through the thread so I'll keep this short ...

The LFG experience blows.

Point the first: LFG runs start with 8-12 people. But it's far easier to do these trials with a group of 24 set up in Pocket D. I'm not sure how it's going to work out in the long run, but right now LFG is actually a hindrance to enjoying the trials.

Point the second: LFG needs more options. I.e., someone sets up a trial run and sets some parameters: trial starts once 24 join. None of this heartache waiting to happen of 7 melee toons and a dom.
I have to agree, unfortunately. Tried to do 2 Lambdas tonight. First one was stillborn, because:
  1. The trial started with only 10 toons
  2. The (randomly chosen) league leader not only didn't communicate with anyone, he wouldn't rearrange the teams (despite everyone begging him to do so) so we ended up with teams of 2, 6, 1, and 1. Team balance? Not quite.
  3. Because of #1 and #2, half the league quit before we cleared around the building. Total trial time: 5 minutes
The second time, we formed a league (using broadcast and channels) before entering the queue and it went much better. Still failed, but that's not my point. My point is, unless there's some way to better control both the size of a League and who gets chosen to lead it, I don't think the Queue is going to be of much use.


 

Posted

Yes there certainly is a fairly steep learning curve on the new trials, as of writing I think I've been on around 4-5 lambda trials with zero success, though got quite close on one. and 2 BAF, 1 completed with 14 SECONDS TO SPARE!

The thing is the first runs were rather disheartening, defeat after defeat handed out by the most minor of enemies. Now, well still getting defeated a lot but I have a better awareness of where things are on the maps, and a better idea of what the priorities are.


It's a shame that there aren't solo friendly trials though, Incarnate repeatable content that an incarnate could run for even a small reward, with missions tailored to the fledgling demigod's AT perhaps.


Allodoxaphobia is the fear of opinions.

Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth. MARCUS AURELIUS (121-180 AD)

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dromio View Post
And two weeks after that all the end gamers will start complaining that they need more end game.
As opposed to the soloers and story people who after having 7 years of content are already complaining that they need more solo content/story?

You know what? I solo. I play arcs for the story content. I even play in character at times. I'm also complaining that 2 trials is too few, and I can't wait for more end game content.


@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker View Post
I think the fundamental issue here is not that it's impossible per se - I've done it on 2 toons quite successfully. It's just not very good.

The philosophy of making a trial/tf more challenging has always been make it bigger and tougher. That is a mantra we've seen going back to when GMs were given insane regen and no reward, thus rendering them pointless when they could have been a central tenet of the game.

ITF also showed a lot of that, with the fluffies boosting Romulus and it took a while to work out the strategy.

Reichsman in his resurrected form just got stupid, especially red side. Stupidly high regen (plus insane ambushes and that stupidly hateful "fist of doom" cutscene that makes the entire game pointless) and yet with a few tweaks Dr Kahn TF is easily one of my favourites.

We see a bit of this in Lady Grey and Statesman but none of them are insurmountable and they at least have a good story.

I guess on one way we should be grateful that the Devs are at least exploring alternatives to the "stupidly hard enemy", but in anything remotely Praetorian they fail; Apex is a dogpile for 2 reasons - Battle Maiden just runs at 50% health regardless of what a team of PCs do. She can have like Mag 462 holds on her but no she can run away, and then we get the stupid blue circles to contend with. They are difficult but mostly they are annoying as hell and just make you go WTF? cuz there's no obvious logic to them. Run from 1-50 and then Apex goes "oh we decided to try this"

Tin Mage isn't much better, except that Director 11 is a pita. But he's only a pita cuz he's got these magic trick mines (and at lvl 54 probably a few incarnate powers himself) but once you suss out that he can get ganked (just like Romulus) he's less of an issue than Rommy.

Seems to me the guns are just more of the same only bigger. It's recycling stuff, in the same way the Lady Grey Hamidon is recycled from the sewer trial. Lacking in imagination and once the novelty I bet it'll be back to runs of ITF (which actually IS a very good TF despite lag hill.)
Soooooo, everything is the same and that's boring and lacks imagination, but the devs can't try new things because it will inevitably be boring and lacking in imagination + you might actually die. So we'll just have to run the same TF over and over because everything else is the same and lacks imagination? Yea ...


@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Funwrecker View Post
My point is, unless there's some way to better control both the size of a League and who gets chosen to lead it, I don't think the Queue is going to be of much use.
I think the queue was intended to give mostly solo/casual players a way to get into the trials without having to plan things too far in advance.

Example: Me.

My schedule is pretty insane these days, so I never know when I'll get a chance to play. If I manage to snag an hour on a weeknight it's nice to know I can stand a decent chance of getting in on a trial if that's what I feel like doing. And with the way it works, I can get in the queue and do stuff around the house that needs done while I'm waiting (as long as I stay in the vicinity of the computer to see when it starts at least).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

 

Posted

I declined to read all of the complaining, mostly because much of it was the same thing over and over again, although there were several valid points made about the queue system.

In my case, first night of the new content, I used LFG for BAF. Only one of us had done it before. We were fine until we faced Siege and Nightstar at the same time... But, we got exp and so it was okay. Still, I felt as if my invul tank was armored in butter for that first time.

Then came Lambda. THAT was a painful experience in the first PUG. Nobody knew what they were doing and we got swarmed. BUT, I still got exp and I was okay.

But, I told a friend "I just got tatered... TWICE!"

I had dinner, and went back at it.

2 completed BAFs and a completed Lambda later, I called it a night with my Judgement slot open and a tiny bit of experience towards Lore and 75% of Interface completed.

The next day I had Interface open and slotted.

This is challenging stuff still. I fail 2 times out of 5 attempts still (mostly with escapees or not getting the acid in time), but the experience and the learning curve are fun and I look forward to getting more powers and more ability and understanding about the process.

I, for one, say bravo Devs.


 

Posted

I'm just going to be straight here. My account is only almost a year old and in that time I've seen big changes. My opinion is that some things in the game are almost impossible to get unless you've been playing for years or are really, really lucky... or learn to cheat, find an exploit, or buy $$$ from one of the generically named level 1 vendors who spam broadcast chat with their wares. An example of this is any decent enhancement worth having costs anywhere from half a billion to 2 billion inf especially if you hope to have any kind of chance of being a competitive player who can literally stand their own ground. Another example would be purple drops. and PVP... what's the point?

People play games because they enjoy REWARDS...

When i20 was in trial I chimed in with everyone else who disagreed with the difficulty of the BAF, how the powers make melee toons useless, and how a PUG clamors to make sense of it first, then tries to beat it, only to die repeatedly.

I did beta over and over... remaining objective in that I was not joining the brown nosers who were telling the devs how GREAT it was ( I saw you, you know who you all are!!!) ... and I wasn't going to let the influence of the unknown make it an unpleasant experience either. After i20 went live I did it again... FOR TWO DAYS!!! I went into the BAF over and over and over again... a different assortment of a team each time. Every single time WE FAILED! All of my toons except 2 are 50s. All of them are completely developed, totally IO'd, uniquely themed even with their own story lines. In other words I put a lot into each and every one of them. They all died.... over and over.

Afterwords I went into the courtyard in Atlas and briefly expressed how I'd like to finish the BAF just once.... and some righteous brown nosing **** said 'we just finished 3 times'! Well, I don't know what exclusive club that person belongs to but great for him, great for his whole team/league! How am I any different than him? That's what I want to know. Seriously!

People don't play games to feel like failures or to die or to never reach content because they can't even complete the mish... and what of these reward 'strands' now among others? I suppose doing the BAF and lambada are the only way to get them? Good thing I figured out yesterday I can still be rewarded for being a failure despite my best efforts as my salvage is full of strands and astral merits! I only have to sell myself out to do it! So if I want these items I just go fail! WOOT!

As someone who has worked for yahoo, geocities and NBC I would respectfully suggest to the devs to definately keep adding new content because it's ALL ABOUT THE CONTENT... but when doing so please try to focus on the community at large and not an elite few...

Thank you.


Madame Nemesis

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Madame Nemesis View Post
I'm just going to be straight here. My account is only almost a year old and in that time I've seen big changes. My opinion is that some things in the game are almost impossible to get unless you've been playing for years or are really, really lucky... or learn to cheat, find an exploit, or buy $$$ from one of the generically named level 1 vendors who spam broadcast chat with their wares. An example of this is any decent enhancement worth having costs anywhere from half a billion to 2 billion inf especially if you hope to have any kind of chance of being a competitive player who can literally stand their own ground. Another example would be purple drops. and PVP... what's the point?

People play games because they enjoy REWARDS...

When i20 was in trial I chimed in with everyone else who disagreed with the difficulty of the BAF, how the powers make melee toons useless, and how a PUG clamors to make sense of it first, then tries to beat it, only to die repeatedly.

I did beta over and over... remaining objective in that I was not joining the brown nosers who were telling the devs how GREAT it was ( I saw you, you know who you all are!!!) ... and I wasn't going to let the influence of the unknown make it an unpleasant experience either. After i20 went live I did it again... FOR TWO DAYS!!! I went into the BAF over and over and over again... a different assortment of a team each time. Every single time WE FAILED! All of my toons except 2 are 50s. All of them are completely developed, totally IO'd, uniquely themed even with their own story lines. In other words I put a lot into each and every one of them. They all died.... over and over.

Afterwords I went into the courtyard in Atlas and briefly expressed how I'd like to finish the BAF just once.... and some righteous brown nosing **** said 'we just finished 3 times'! Well, I don't know what exclusive club that person belongs to but great for him, great for his whole team/league! How am I any different than him? That's what I want to know. Seriously!

People don't play games to feel like failures or to die or to never reach content because they can't even complete the mish... and what of these reward 'strands' now among others? I suppose doing the BAF and lambada are the only way to get them? Good thing I figured out yesterday I can still be rewarded for being a failure despite my best efforts as my salvage is full of strands and astral merits! I only have to sell myself out to do it! So if I want these items I just go fail! WOOT!

As someone who has worked for yahoo, geocities and NBC I would respectfully suggest to the devs to definately keep adding new content because it's ALL ABOUT THE CONTENT... but when doing so please try to focus on the community at large and not an elite few...

Thank you.
Okay, since your account is only that old I presume it means you've only been playing that long, correct?

If that is truly the case you would be completely unaware that your complaints here have been said of pretty much every new TF that has been released in the last 5 years of the game. Especially for the first few weeks of it's release.

In pretty much every case, a couple months went by and people changed their tune to "Oh, I guess it isn't so bad now that more people know what they're doing and can advise others."

I'm expecting this to go pretty much the same way.

The difference between them? The old "New TFs" were failed repeatedly, just as this is being failed repeatedly. Except when you failed THEM, you got SQUAT. With this, at least they don't make you feel like a failure was a complete waste of your time because you just spent 3 hours on something only to get nothing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill View Post
Once the population "gets used to" the encounters, there will be level-shifted, Interface/Judgement/etc. powered characters who can trivialize it and don't care if they're dragging others along that can't really contribute much on their own.
This.

This already happens to me on my 2 50's (go ahead and laugh), and I have been playing for a number of years. I'm not a l33t gamer, but I'm not the average player either in that I do look at the forums for tips and try to learn and comprehend what's going on and why.

But I guess that's a human nature complaint.


M Grace


Global: @MomentaryGrace
Servers (to date): Liberty (primary), Infinity, Protector, Virtue, Justice, Pinnacle
MA Arc: ID #143659 "Visit Scenic Arcadia!"
MA Holiday Arc: ID #346847 "Yule Laugh, Yule Cry (Yule kiss a happy holiday good bye!)"

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melancton View Post
Yellow Dawn?!? You whippersnappers don't know a THING about Yellow Dawn!

THIS was a Yellow Dawn, sonny!



Now you kids get off my lawn!

Oh dam!! wow. reminds me of an old school Hami I did on Guardian once. after 8 freakin hours, he 'popped' and mito's were EVERYWHERE!


Combat Kangaroos, Justice Server. First 50's
Jirra Roo Plant/Storm/Stone/Musculature Controller
Combat Kangaroo Rifle/Energy/Mace/Spiritual Blaster
Kung Fu Kangaroo Martial Arts/Reflexes/Body/Spiritual Scrapper
Tribal Arc Shield/Elec/Mu/Spiritual Tanker

 

Posted

Sometimes the entitlement complex displayed by the forumgoers here plain disgusts me. "What do you mean we can't faceroll our way through this content, like 99% of the rest of the game?!", you cry. "Why can't I solo this content designed for 24 players within a day of release? What do you mean I might have to listen to others??", you sob as your FF/DP Defender ineffectually hurls bolts at Marauder. "I am a special snowflake! This end-game content, specifically said by the devs to be extremely hard and providing the biggest challenge yet seen in CoX, is far too hard!!", you mumble through the tears and snot staining your face and collection of anime figurines. "It's all too much. Time to make a forum post, just like with the last nine TFs the devs released!"


~union4lyfe~

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan_Frost View Post
Sometimes the entitlement complex displayed by the forumgoers here plain disgusts me.
Sometimes the lumping of all forumgoers, with feedback about the new content, under a blanket statement of entitlement complex, just plains disgusts me.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect View Post
Wow, it's been live for one day and people are already declaring it to be too hard and an example of bad design.

Reminds me very much of:

ITF
STF
LRSF
Kahn
Barracuda
Hamidon
Ship Raids
Apex
Tin Mage

Did I miss any?
Yes, the Respec Trials.
I quite clearly remember the drama on the boards regarding how impossible these were to do, especially with a group of characters that needed the respec! Could not be done - utterly broken - terriblly cruel joke by the Devs.

When I first tried the Terra Volta Trial, I failed 4 straight, won one, and then failed 3 straight. I think this serves as proof positive that this Trial is far too hard and should be recalled as bad programming.

Right?


"Strength of numbers is the delight of the timid. The valiant in spirit glory in fighting alone."
- Mahatma Gandhi

Still CoHzy after all these years...

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tetsuko_NA View Post
Yes, the Respec Trials.
I quite clearly remember the drama on the boards regarding how impossible these were to do, especially with a group of characters that needed the respec! Could not be done - utterly broken - terriblly cruel joke by the Devs.
I have still never completed a villain respec trial (and I have never tried running one with a character that needed a respec). The hero one is stupid, but not difficult.


 

Posted

Quote:
The hero one is stupid, but not difficult.
At the point he's referring to, the hero respec was considerably more brutal. The devs actually did tone it down significantly from its original incarnation.


Dawncaller - The Circle of Dawn
Too many blasted alts to list, but all on Virtue.

 

Posted

lol this game is hard...


 

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Originally Posted by dbuter View Post
One of the things I liked about CoH was that L2P didn't happen here. Soon, the devs will jump in and tell the players this, just like they do on the WoW boards.
They already have.

--NT


They all laughed at me when I said I wanted to be a comedian.
But I showed them, and nobody's laughing at me now!

If I became a red name, I would be all "and what would you mere mortals like to entertain me with today, mu hu ha ha ha!" ~Arcanaville

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalantia View Post
At the point he's referring to, the hero respec was considerably more brutal. The devs actually did tone it down significantly from its original incarnation.
Which is a fairly sound point. I'd only suggest being aware that there is different intent at play. You're a bit less likely to be going on a respec trial trying to earn a respec token if your build currently is sox roxing.

There is a comparable statement that you'll prolly rarely want/need to go on BAF/Lam once you have purpled out those new abilities.

The new abilities are crutches that end up covering other problems, imo. The 'big problem' being communication and situational awareness. Not much can really be done about those two beyond players 'improving themselves'. Kinda harsh, but sad. The other aspect the incarnate abilities crutch over though, is the inbalance amongst powers [when considering the content]. I personally feel that much like pvp serves as a microscope to highlight existing balance problems, raiding should do the same. At the very least, it should tighten the cloud of relative balance in those raids.

Unlike other MMOs with raiding content, there aren't a whole lot of options for raiding encounters, so 'balance over a variety of encounters' doesn't have as much validity. Although it's also a potential solution to other broader balance issues. However in general, it's important that the raids are designed in a way where you 'bring the player' not the class (although that doesn't mean that roles shouldn't be important either .


Let's Dance!