Yellow Dawn II: The Revenge of Bad Mission Design
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-04-05 17:40 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Oh, I understand the intent. Heck, I agree with the intent. Problem is that as designed, a queue team will be minimum size with no guarantee that the leader knows what they're doing. Based on what I saw last night, after a few disaster runs like the one I mentioned, EVERYONE on my server just started using channels to form Leagues. No need for advance planning.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I think the queue was intended to give mostly solo/casual players a way to get into the trials without having to plan things too far in advance.
Example: Me. My schedule is pretty insane these days, so I never know when I'll get a chance to play. If I manage to snag an hour on a weeknight it's nice to know I can stand a decent chance of getting in on a trial if that's what I feel like doing. And with the way it works, I can get in the queue and do stuff around the house that needs done while I'm waiting (as long as I stay in the vicinity of the computer to see when it starts at least). |
(As to how to fix it? Good question. Raise the minimums? Start a timer when the minimum is reached, and only start the trial once the max is reached or the timer expires? Automatically broadcast something on a channel when a trial is getting ready to start? Just some ideas...)
Well, I managed to succeed at a Lambda today. I think I was dragged around by a really good guy who's done it a lot, as I'm pretty sure he's got at least two of the new slots filled.
I didn't really add much, of course. My old original toon has no IOs, as I have a lot of Hamios. I really don't want to have to get a ton of influence and buy a ton of IOs, so I only have accuracy on my Dark Defender...
But hey, as long as I can leach with the best, I guess I'm okay.
Still here, even after all this time!
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Yeah that is the scary part.
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Originally Posted by NuclearToast
They already have.
--NT |
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Set a minimum size team that you are willing to join for Lambda or BAF, I bet.
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Originally Posted by Funwrecker
Oh, I understand the intent. Heck, I agree with the intent. Problem is that as designed, a queue team will be minimum size with no guarantee that the leader knows what they're doing. Based on what I saw last night, after a few disaster runs like the one I mentioned, EVERYONE on my server just started using channels to form Leagues. No need for advance planning.
(As to how to fix it? Good question. Raise the minimums? Start a timer when the minimum is reached, and only start the trial once the max is reached or the timer expires? Automatically broadcast something on a channel when a trial is getting ready to start? Just some ideas...) |
Still here, even after all this time!
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I suppose you completely missed the irony of having this in your rant.
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Originally Posted by Duncan_Frost
What do you mean I might have to listen to others??
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So then it's official... I'm in the gripe club lol. Yes it's true... 11.5 months of total COH addiction and I'm not going anywhere. I understand what you're saying... people don't adapt happily to change, it's human nature. At the same time I totally love how the devs keep adding new content and can't wait to see what the future brings. |
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Okay, since your account is only that old I presume it means you've only been playing that long, correct?
If that is truly the case you would be completely unaware that your complaints here have been said of pretty much every new TF that has been released in the last 5 years of the game. Especially for the first few weeks of it's release. |
See... I think a large part of the problem is that I'm trying to team with people on freedom in atlas where toons were born and raised in a single day. There's so many. When they do that they don't learn how to play their toon well. Who knows what percentage of the leagues I've been on that have been comprised of 'insta-toons'? and now we're expecting this population to adapt (well and happily) to not a new tf... but leagues and end game trials that shift the level of our toons and that shift is dependant on only these 2 trials.
Whatever it is in the game that makes so many people want to bypass the content created for them needs to be fixed. I realize this happens in every game but it's so prevalent that it's effecting miss 11.5 month account holder (and I'd imagine many others) ... especially when things like this come out.
Imagine being on a league and every other toon on that league is familiar with their skills, how to play... they've spent time on their toon, hanced it up, spent their hard earned money... we wouldn't be having the same problems we're having now, at least not to this magnitude.
Madame Nemesis
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It would certainly be helpful if the LFG tab allowed us to flag ourselves "willing to lead," and a trial couldn't start without at least one person flagged as such. I do think as people become more experienced with the league UI the people who are allergic to the star will just start passing it off, and as people become more experienced with the trials we'll have more random PuG members willing to step up and lead.|
Originally Posted by Funwrecker
Oh, I understand the intent. Heck, I agree with the intent. Problem is that as designed, a queue team will be minimum size with no guarantee that the leader knows what they're doing. Based on what I saw last night, after a few disaster runs like the one I mentioned, EVERYONE on my server just started using channels to form Leagues. No need for advance planning.
(As to how to fix it? Good question. Raise the minimums? Start a timer when the minimum is reached, and only start the trial once the max is reached or the timer expires? Automatically broadcast something on a channel when a trial is getting ready to start? Just some ideas...) |
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Originally Posted by Madame Nemesis
See... I think a large part of the problem is that I'm trying to team with people on freedom in atlas where toons were born and raised in a single day. There's so many. When they do that they don't learn how to play their toon well. Who knows what percentage of the leagues I've been on that have been comprised of 'insta-toons'? and now we're expecting this population to adapt (well and happily) to not a new tf... but leagues and end game trials that shift the level of our toons and that shift is dependant on only these 2 trials.
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I actually really wasn't trying to be mean there. |
Originally Posted by Madame Nemesis
So then it's official... I'm in the gripe club lol. Yes it's true... 11.5 months of total COH addiction and I'm not going anywhere. I understand what you're saying... people don't adapt happily to change, it's human nature. At the same time I totally love how the devs keep adding new content and can't wait to see what the future brings.
See... I think a large part of the problem is that I'm trying to team with people on freedom in atlas where toons were born and raised in a single day. There's so many. When they do that they don't learn how to play their toon well. Who knows what percentage of the leagues I've been on that have been comprised of 'insta-toons'? and now we're expecting this population to adapt (well and happily) to not a new tf... but leagues and end game trials that shift the level of our toons and that shift is dependant on only these 2 trials. Whatever it is in the game that makes so many people want to bypass the content created for them needs to be fixed. I realize this happens in every game but it's so prevalent that it's effecting miss 11.5 month account holder (and I'd imagine many others) ... especially when things like this come out. Imagine being on a league and every other toon on that league is familiar with their skills, how to play... they've spent time on their toon, hanced it up, spent their hard earned money... we wouldn't be having the same problems we're having now, at least not to this magnitude. |
I was just pointing out that you would be unaware of something the people who have been around longer know. Which is: Every new task force added to the game, at least since I've been playing, was immediately met with complaints that it was too hard for at least the first several weeks to a month of it's addition.
The ITF was deemed too hard because no one had figured out how to beat Romulus yet. Now they are being run in 25 minutes.
The STF was deemed too hard because no one had figured out you have to single pull the AVs and the proper order in taking down Recluse's towers. Now it's not unusual to see it done in 45 minutes, and successful Master runs are fairly common.
Kahn was deemed too hard because Reichsman has a crap ton of HP and brings in other AVs to help him. I have seen Kahn completed in 15-20 minutes.
Point being, ALL of those things, and more, were declared to be too difficult and cheaty because the players had not adapted to them yet. And now that the players have adapted to them, they are routine and almost trivially easy for some teams.
And I'm expecting the Incarnate Trials to have much the same thing happen.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
While I agree this is not the random 8 person TF Trial it was cooked up to be, I think it is important to remember that even a fail gets you a lot of experience and some threads. Even failing you can open up a slot after a few tries and start purchasing abilities.
Once 90% of the people playing have Tier 4 on everything (like we had with Alpha slot a week ago) it will be much easier (of course 90% of people won't care then LOL).
The real thing to fear is that in the next trials they make them randomize goals each instance. Then you REALLY will have people confused. "We're going in blind we don't know what to expect..." Imagine Trial where any of 5 things can happen at each stage. 5 stages each with 5 variations = 25 Trial threads.
Could actually be a lot of fun but those who don't check boards (and don't read the chat during the fight) will be like albatrosses around everyone else's necks unless it is very straightforward.
----------------------------
You can't please everyone, so lets concentrate on me.
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Case in point. Union has been doing BAF runs all afternoon with a quite effortlessly 90% succes rate. On PuGs. There was even an unintentional succesfull Mo. |
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
And I'm expecting the Incarnate Trials to have much the same thing happen. |
We got the strategy down and people are slotting their incarnate powers.
It's a blast.
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
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Well said.|
Originally Posted by Madame Nemesis
So then it's official... I'm in the gripe club lol. Yes it's true... 11.5 months of total COH addiction and I'm not going anywhere. I understand what you're saying... people don't adapt happily to change, it's human nature. At the same time I totally love how the devs keep adding new content and can't wait to see what the future brings.
See... I think a large part of the problem is that I'm trying to team with people on freedom in atlas where toons were born and raised in a single day. There's so many. When they do that they don't learn how to play their toon well. Who knows what percentage of the leagues I've been on that have been comprised of 'insta-toons'? and now we're expecting this population to adapt (well and happily) to not a new tf... but leagues and end game trials that shift the level of our toons and that shift is dependant on only these 2 trials. Whatever it is in the game that makes so many people want to bypass the content created for them needs to be fixed. I realize this happens in every game but it's so prevalent that it's effecting miss 11.5 month account holder (and I'd imagine many others) ... especially when things like this come out. Imagine being on a league and every other toon on that league is familiar with their skills, how to play... they've spent time on their toon, hanced it up, spent their hard earned money... we wouldn't be having the same problems we're having now, at least not to this magnitude. |
The narrow focus will have effects on the rest of the game.
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You mean the same narrow focus of solo content? PvP? Base Building? AE? badges?|
Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
Well said.
The narrow focus will have effects on the rest of the game. |
I dare say that the Trials have much broader appeal than any of those.
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
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End game content is the most narrowest niche one can find in a MMORPG. Furthermore, this is the first niche which will take up multiple issues just to flesh out unlike the other niches you have mentioned.
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Originally Posted by TrueMetal
You mean the same narrow focus of solo content? PvP? Base Building? AE? badges?
I dare say that the Trials have much broader appeal than any of those. |
I am not going to say that these trials are evil incarnate. I for one really like that there is more an varied content being added for end-gamers. The higher level incarnate abilities that they unlock are for the most part quite interesting to see. I do wish that they were a bit more accessable to some ATs, but that is life.
That said, I have three basic issues with these trials.
The first issue is one that I am hoping will be proven wrong over time. It seems to me like they set up the Marauder encounter so that players *have* to do it the specific way the devs designed it or you fail. I know people compared it to ITFs and the nictus healing Rommie, but there are several widely different strategies that I've seen used to counter that. So far, aciding the portals seems to be the only way to remotely reasonably defeat Praetor white. Again, I am hoping this will be proven wrong *without* requiring that people have 3 incarnate level shifts and mega abilities to win.
The second issue is admitted mostly a me thing. The trials seem so fast paced that I really don't get as much of a sense of story to them. I like being able to feel like there is a real plot unfolding rather than just being pointed at the bad guys and launched.
The third issue is the most severe and I don't currently see any way around it. I really dislike that in order to get access to the extra incarnate abilities in any sort of reasonable time frame, you *have* to grind these two trials. Shard conversion is extremely expensive and you can't earn threads without doing an obscene amount of Apex/Tin Mage TFs or grinding the trials.
I really liked how the alpha slot portion of the incarnate abilities encouraged players to grab their end-game characters and re-visit older TFs/SFs. The TF of the week saw renewed interest in ones that had previously been a real PITA to get people together to go do. You could do different content every week to get the big rewards and to break up the monotony of grinding. Now you get to these extra slots and it's just BAF trial, Lambda trial, BAF trial, Lambda trial, wash, rinse, repeat.
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LOL. Yes, they all appeared in a single issue complete and full as they are now. Especially the soloable content.|
Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
End game content is the most narrowest niche one can find in a MMORPG. Furthermore, this is the first niche which will take up multiple issues just to flesh out unlike the other niches you have mentioned.
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End game narrower than pvp? in this game? Narrower than base building? narrower than the "I only solo and nothing else!" crowd? Hardly.
And really, why is the multiple issue things even an argument against end game content? I'd get it if it was all the Devs were working on, but it's not. You've got plenty of soloable story arcs in last few issues, including preatoria, there are 2 mid level TFs in this one.
I'm thorougly enjoying the varied types of pve content the devs have realeased in the past year. Is it all perfect? No. There's a number of things I would've liked to see handled differently. But all in all it's pretty good.
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
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From what I hear, the Master badge for that trial involves using ZERO grenades, of either type. |
Originally Posted by Neo-Gabi
The first issue is one that I am hoping will be proven wrong over time. It seems to me like they set up the Marauder encounter so that players *have* to do it the specific way the devs designed it or you fail. I know people compared it to ITFs and the nictus healing Rommie, but there are several widely different strategies that I've seen used to counter that. So far, aciding the portals seems to be the only way to remotely reasonably defeat Praetor white. Again, I am hoping this will be proven wrong *without* requiring that people have 3 incarnate level shifts and mega abilities to win.
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Based on that alone, I think it's safe to say it is intended to be possible to do more than one way.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Originally Posted by Melancton
Yellow Dawn?!? You whippersnappers don't know a THING about Yellow Dawn!
THIS was a Yellow Dawn, sonny!  Now you kids get off my lawn!  |
Okay first off what did you say or do to Hami to tick him off that bad? THAT IS A LOT OF YELLOW MITOS and they seem to have left the jello mold.
Now as Zombie mentions this is NEW content and the majority of the player base did not get a change to try it out on test. It's been 3 days and already people are getting the hang of both trials.. I did 3 BAFs and a LAMBDA last night and all 4 were successful. Sure we still had a few trips to the hospital .. I personally finally had a BAF run where i didn't visit HOSP once and I think I was happier over than than anything else. "HEY I DIDN'T DIE! COOL!!!!"
Given enough time for everyone to get familiar with what to do and when to do it along with the eventual situation where all of us have 2 level shifts and those 54 levels are conning yellow not purple and we'll see people having contests to see how small can our league be and still kick butt.. It wouldn't suprise me a but for some purples out build to eventually solo one or both... I doubt it but then again I didn't think anyone would ever solo the ITF and now I swear I think I probably could.
"THAS RIGHT... I IS BADDD!"
hehehe
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Except in Lambda, where if you get the Astral Merits you're probably going to win anyway. The BAF is a lot more logical when it comes to "rewarding failure".|
Originally Posted by Ultra_Violence
While I agree this is not the random 8 person TF Trial it was cooked up to be, I think it is important to remember that even a fail gets you a lot of experience and some threads. Even failing you can open up a slot after a few tries and start purchasing abilities.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Once the population "gets used to" the encounters, there will be level-shifted, Interface/Judgement/etc. powered characters who can trivialize it and don't care if they're dragging others along that can't really contribute much on their own.
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And so, me, the Dark/Stone Brute, got to do very little and even get less iXP than one of my previous failed runs, simply because everyone could do way more than I could hope to. (Note, this is less of a complaint against the Trials, per se, and more that I'm getting more and more fed up with Stone Armor's complete and total suck day by day...)
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I've heard that as well, I just haven't heard how viable it is in actual implementation yet. As I said, I am hoping that we find more and better ways that don't rely on the characters having already been slotted to the gills.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
From what I hear, the Master badge for that trial involves using ZERO grenades, of either type.
Based on that alone, I think it's safe to say it is intended to be possible to do more than one way. |
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My runs are getting that way in BAF too.........and it's really irritating me.
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Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy
I personally finally had a BAF run where i didn't visit HOSP once and I think I was happier over than than anything else. "HEY I DIDN'T DIE! COOL!!!!"
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Actually the Master Of badges are the following.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
From what I hear, the Master badge for that trial involves using ZERO grenades, of either type.
Based on that alone, I think it's safe to say it is intended to be possible to do more than one way. |
Get all 10 pacification grenades but do not use them.
Get all 10 Acid grenades but do not use them.
Got all 10 acid AND Pacification grenades and do not use them.
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At the end of the day it's a numbers game. Doing it without grenades requires a lot more damage (both on Marauder and on the adds) than using them. I suspect a well skilled team with a lot of buffs/debuffs could do it today but for the most part I think until people start getting their judgement powers and level shifts it's going to be very hard.
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Originally Posted by Neo-Gabi
I've heard that as well, I just haven't heard how viable it is in actual implementation yet. As I said, I am hoping that we find more and better ways that don't rely on the characters having already been slotted to the gills.
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Honestly, I suspect resistance debuffs to be more crucial in "doing it without 'nades" than actual raw damage. Considering he's about 100% resistant to all damage when enraged.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
At the end of the day it's a numbers game. Doing it without grenades requires a lot more damage (both on Marauder and on the adds) than using them. I suspect a well skilled team with a lot of buffs/debuffs could do it today but for the most part I think until people start getting their judgement powers and level shifts it's going to be very hard.
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Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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I consider "more damage" to include resistance debuffs and regen debuffs as well as raw damage. At the end of the day the important value is the teams DPS minus his Regen per second.
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Originally Posted by Arilou
Honestly, I suspect resistance debuffs to be more crucial in "doing it without 'nades" than actual raw damage. Considering he's about 100% resistant to all damage when enraged.
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For the record I completely agree with Duncan but for me it is ohhh so sweet. Remember when everyone laughed at PvPers and told them to adapt when i13 hit and the PvP gameplay was ACTUALLY turned on its head and now works completely different then it did? Yeah well that was real, this is just a bunch of people whinning that they aren't so special anymore and that the game "changed completely." No that is a matter of perception my friends, a very, VERY, entitled perception.
No relation to Arachnos!
Part Pack: Now the majority of players know how we, PvPers, have felt for years now. Don't want to be so "civil" now that you have been completly ignored, do you?