Yellow Dawn II: The Revenge of Bad Mission Design
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-04-05 17:40 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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# of players in the league?|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Hmm. Last night.
Good team, someone who had run this several times. Team paid attention, worked as a unit, decent mix of ATs, etc. Result? "Hey, look, Marauder!" *team wipe, team wipe, team wipe* |
# of temp powers obtained and used?
Were they using known and workable strategies?
(BTW, not arguing with or challenging you, MB. Just curious)
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
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They didn't give an exact breakdown of who was working on what, other than that Posi was heading up the end-game team, and that they would be splitting the staff to work on end-game and rest of game concurrently. I'm sure that there was/is overlap in some areas. I've yet to see them say that wasn't the case, (nor have I seen any evidence of that), so I'm not sure why you seem so certain that 100% of Dev activity is now end-game only.
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Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
You were the one that claimed half the dev team was working on the incarnate content while the other half was working on the rest of the game. Based on what we know now, the entire dev team was working on incarnate content.
The "rest of the game" has been put on hold for Issue 20, probably Issue 21, and who knows how many more issues. Basically you were wrong, and are not willing to admit it as well. |
Furio--Lvl 50+3 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster, Virtue
Megadeth--Lvl 50+3 Necro/DM/Soul MM, Virtue
Veriandros--Lvl 50+3 Crab Soldier, Virtue
"So come and get me! I'll be waiting for ye, with a whiff of the old brimstone. I'm a grim bloody fable, with an unhappy bloody end!" Demoman, TF2
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I really agree here.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Perhaps because people would prefer "Learning and being able to handle it on their own" instead of "Being dragged along and being useless while the level shifted do all the work without breaking a sweat?"
Nah, that couldn't possibly be it. |
Hamidon raids have gotten easier as time has gone on and people have gotten better at what they do. I am not contesting that this is going to be the same for the incarnate trials.
Once we have experienced players with all their new fancy stuff the trials will still be more difficult than normal content, but experience and power will make them more manageable.
However, I can contribute at a Hamidon raid without Hamidon enhancements.
I can even contribute meaningfully if my character isn't even 50 yet and is missing half their enhancements.
Today I can contribute to the trial on my characters that only have their Alpha slot because that is all anyone else has. In a month I will be no less effective as today, but my contribution will be meaningless, and in some cases, actually hindering the event.
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Now that's just crazy talk Bill. We all know that "challenging" equates to being with a bunch of other people and relying on all of them not to do anything idiotic, then beating on a giant bloated sack of HP that can one-shot you.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Perhaps because people would prefer "Learning and being able to handle it on their own" instead of "Being dragged along and being useless while the level shifted do all the work without breaking a sweat?"
Nah, that couldn't possibly be it. |
The very fact that people are suggesting anyone who finds the trials hard should wait to be dragged along by level-shifted Incarnated-out people points to a failure in design. Learn2ply is one thing. Wait for everyone else to Learn2ply so you can leech off them is....yeah! We're powerful now!
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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... which is, to me, an echo of the New Maria. "Yeah, well, we sent ahead some real hero support, I guess you can go along if you like and watch Statesman clear the map." As opposed to what it used to be, "Big threat, he's missing, and you're the only one who can save him!"
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
.yeah! We're powerful now!
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Embrace the time sink that is Altitis.
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Originally Posted by Dromio
And two weeks after that all the end gamers will start complaining that they need more end game.
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And yet this doesn't. |
Originally Posted by Santorican
That rhymes and you didn't even meant it, would you like a peanut?
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Meh, if you run those on a reasonably high difficulty your helpers die pretty quickly. Mostly because they are dumb. Statesman refuses to die though, which is unfortunate because his hand-clap spam is FREAKING ANNOYING.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
... which is, to me, an echo of the New Maria. "Yeah, well, we sent ahead some real hero support, I guess you can go along if you like and watch Statesman clear the map." As opposed to what it used to be, "Big threat, he's missing, and you're the only one who can save him!"
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/kick Statesman.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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Well, yeah, there's another issue there too.|
Originally Posted by Aquila_NA
Embrace the time sink that is Altitis.
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Some people suffering from long term Altitis have multiple 50s, and hey you can't just settle on one of 'em right?
Gotta get them all their incarnate stuff and... oh... Trial A, Trial B, or obscene quantities of shards?
The Weekly Strike Target was really great for altaholics; each week you've a different TF/SF that you can do for new shineys?! Sure you could end up doing the same TF twenty times that week, but then next Tuesday it's a different TF!
New abilities! Bonus rewards! An excuse to dust off that concept character you want to blame on heavy drinking but were totaly sober when you rolled them! Best of all when it got stale there were many other TFs for the Devs to chose from for the next week!
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I liked using a stealth IO and super speeding across the map to get far enough away from my "helpers" that they stopped following me.
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Meh, if you run those on a reasonably high difficulty your helpers die pretty quickly. Mostly because they are dumb. Statesman refuses to die though, which is unfortunate because his hand-clap spam is FREAKING ANNOYING.
/kick Statesman. |
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Wait really people thought the ITF was hard? |
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
It's ITF all over again. Which people are now bragging their duoing and soloing.
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I recall everyone crying that the LRSF was to hard and could only be done with everyone having all three nukes, a shivan and someone going off to die and be tp'ed back for stacked veng buff.
Global: @Kelig
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Yes - it was thought to be just about impossible to defeat Romulus at the end when he had such powerful help from his 3 Nictus pets.
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Originally Posted by joebartender
Wait really people thought the ITF was hard?
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
I think the fundamental issue here is not that it's impossible per se - I've done it on 2 toons quite successfully. It's just not very good.
The philosophy of making a trial/tf more challenging has always been make it bigger and tougher. That is a mantra we've seen going back to when GMs were given insane regen and no reward, thus rendering them pointless when they could have been a central tenet of the game.
ITF also showed a lot of that, with the fluffies boosting Romulus and it took a while to work out the strategy.
Reichsman in his resurrected form just got stupid, especially red side. Stupidly high regen (plus insane ambushes and that stupidly hateful "fist of doom" cutscene that makes the entire game pointless) and yet with a few tweaks Dr Kahn TF is easily one of my favourites.
We see a bit of this in Lady Grey and Statesman but none of them are insurmountable and they at least have a good story.
I guess on one way we should be grateful that the Devs are at least exploring alternatives to the "stupidly hard enemy", but in anything remotely Praetorian they fail; Apex is a dogpile for 2 reasons - Battle Maiden just runs at 50% health regardless of what a team of PCs do. She can have like Mag 462 holds on her but no she can run away, and then we get the stupid blue circles to contend with. They are difficult but mostly they are annoying as hell and just make you go WTF? cuz there's no obvious logic to them. Run from 1-50 and then Apex goes "oh we decided to try this"
Tin Mage isn't much better, except that Director 11 is a pita. But he's only a pita cuz he's got these magic trick mines (and at lvl 54 probably a few incarnate powers himself) but once you suss out that he can get ganked (just like Romulus) he's less of an issue than Rommy.
Seems to me the guns are just more of the same only bigger. It's recycling stuff, in the same way the Lady Grey Hamidon is recycled from the sewer trial. Lacking in imagination and once the novelty I bet it'll be back to runs of ITF (which actually IS a very good TF despite lag hill.)
Thelonious Monk
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Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
Seems to me the guns are just more of the same only bigger. It's recycling stuff, in the same way the Lady Grey Hamidon is recycled from the sewer trial. Lacking in imagination and once the novelty I bet it'll be back to runs of ITF (which actually IS a very good TF despite lag hill.)
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That's not exactly true. The enemies do have more HP and hit harder, but there is also a level of coordination and strategy that's not present in other content.
Yes, there's a substantial amount of "gear check" to Lambda (much less so BAF), but it's much much more paying attention. The biggest problem with Lambda for instance is making sure that people use the darn temp powers or passing them on to someone who will.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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That's supposed to be a problem? Seriously? I mean, it is a problem, but learning to read is something you should do in grade school.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Yes, there's a substantial amount of "gear check" to Lambda (much less so BAF), but it's much much more paying attention. The biggest problem with Lambda for instance is making sure that people use the darn temp powers or passing them on to someone who will.
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Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
One of the things I liked about CoH was that L2P didn't happen here. Soon, the devs will jump in and tell the players this, just like they do on the WoW boards.
So basicly the whole Task Force/raid/whatever the hell you want to call it is only winnable if you manage to do 1 thing right. You must have the acids to close the portal within like 30 seconds of that stage of the trial beginnig. Otherwise you lose.
Yeah, great fricken idea NCsoft. As much as I applaud and approve of the Tin Mage and Apex TF's, I have to say BAF and Lambda just suck.
'If Champions Online is what "CoH was supposed to be", I'm glad that I have what I have rather than "what it was supposed to be".' - The Alt oholic
"I solo'd Hamidon...but I also totally cheated." - Back Alley Brawler
"It is still early. Someone is going to get stabbed tonight I can feel it." - Ishmael (said in Jello Shooters chat)
Dooooooooooooooooooooooooooom
Blood Widow Ricki * Tide Shifter * T-34 * Opposite Reaction * Shaolin Midnight * ChernobylCheerleader
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They wish |
Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
Dooooooooooooooooooooooooooom
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Some groups cook through it. Others fail. Leadership and coordination make a huge difference. I've only failed once. I can see this getting extremely easy in a few weeks.
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It was clearly said in the beta that the art/animation team was tied up for incarnate end game content till issue 21 I(in other words no power proliferation or power sets). Reality is the "overlap" is the entire team with the exception of the one unique TF 20-40 hero side map that one of the developers was working on.|
Originally Posted by Furio
They didn't give an exact breakdown of who was working on what, other than that Posi was heading up the end-game team, and that they would be splitting the staff to work on end-game and rest of game concurrently. I'm sure that there was/is overlap in some areas. I've yet to see them say that wasn't the case, (nor have I seen any evidence of that), so I'm not sure why you seem so certain that 100% of Dev activity is now end-game only.
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What evidence do you have that they are working on other areas concurrently given that Issue 20 launched with only incarnate content and the two task forces?
The evidence is clear that is not the case, but you are simply in denial about being wrong in misleading people to believe they have split their human resources.
The direction of the game as of Issue 20, and possibly issue 21 is about Incarnate end game. If that focus shifts, you may then have an argument. But currently that is not the case.
Hey Zwillinger,
I'm feeling lousy and haven't read through the thread so I'll keep this short ...
The LFG experience blows.
Point the first: LFG runs start with 8-12 people. But it's far easier to do these trials with a group of 24 set up in Pocket D. I'm not sure how it's going to work out in the long run, but right now LFG is actually a hindrance to enjoying the trials.
Point the second: LFG needs more options. I.e., someone sets up a trial run and sets some parameters: trial starts once 24 join. None of this heartache waiting to happen of 7 melee toons and a dom.
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Take three inspirations. Combine into Break Free. Continue to play game.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Yeah, Heavy Commanders seem more than a little broken, with their screen obscuring missiles that seem to be on a, what, 3 second recharge?
The Augars are also horrible, for me, because of Terrorise. Oh look, frozen in place for a good lon- dead. |
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A crate and a chamber will spawn in the outside courtyard, which you can take down and gain another Pacification Grenade or Acid Mortar respectively. If a team doesn't gather all of them inside, then attack these as they spawn, they will continue to do so.
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Originally Posted by Cold_X
The problem with this line of thinking is that you expect the PUG to listen when we repeatedly make statements in chat about the Acid Temps. I'm 0-8 I think on Lambda with PUGs and it all comes down to someone not using the Acid temps, we will sit there and beat the crap out of the canister and no one pipes up about having the temp and sure doesn't use it. By the time it's too late there is about 100 baddies hanging out with Marauder who are unstoppable.
BAF is doable with a PUG (although please check into the rez bug I witnessed tonight where Nightstar was rezzed by a dead Siege), but Lambda is not doable with a PUG with any amount of people if people who get temps don't pay attention or just cannot be taught. Give out more of the Acid Temps at least so if there are people being shoddy there's a greater likely hood of someone else having the temp and being able to pick up the slack. If there are 10 portals, have 15-20 temps available during the in house cleaning. Just sayin' Overall, excellent work on end game content though, this stuff could last forever. |
Good team, someone who had run this several times. Team paid attention, worked as a unit, decent mix of ATs, etc.
Result?
"Hey, look, Marauder!" *team wipe, team wipe, team wipe*
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork