Yellow Dawn II: The Revenge of Bad Mission Design
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-04-05 17:40 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
Because if your team grabs all the [Molecular Acid] temps in the prior stage and then shuts down all the portals, there is no massive horde |
Originally Posted by AkuTenshiiZero
So how exactly did Marauder's personal legion get past playtesting? Because I hate to break it to you but there is no way that an average 8-man, randomly-selected PUG can deal with this. Call me bitter, but the content after GR has gone from bad to worse. Stacking spawns on top of stacking spawns. I remember when things like this were considdered a bug!
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Of course, this is very tough to do with a 8-man (which will become easier as people unlock more Incarnate abilities) and most will have better luck with a 16-man Lambda.
Doable on beta. It's called "learning how to play" rather than be "spoonfed the same gruel" year after year.
pohsyb: so of all people you must be most excited about the veats
Arachnos Commander: actually, I am
pohsyb: I mean you kinda were one already anyways ^_^
Arachnos Commander:
Quote:
In before "lrn2play"...oh, dang. |
Originally Posted by Commander
Doable on beta. It's called "learning how to play" rather than be "spoonfed the same gruel" year after year.
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Lambda was sold on being completable with an 8 man team, and the raid system is designed for PUGs. From what I saw those two are simply mutually exclusive.
There's also the fact of the matter that the molecular acid is so wildly more valuable and raid-altering that I'm tempted the next time I run to have the entire league or at least a much larger group raid the labs rather than split evenly.
It really wouldn't be nearly as bad as it is if the human bosses didn't spam battle drones. Without their hyper-stacked buffs, Marauder's horde might be surmountable.
Never surrender! Never give up!
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Quote:
Y'know what? I'm totally in agreement with that. Next time I attempt this I'm going to coerce my group into going after the acid exclusively. Honestly, what's the point of getting grenades quicker anyways? Apparently there's a time limit increase if you get both up to a certain amount. Hell if I know, I haven't seen that get accomplished yet.|
Originally Posted by IanTheM1
In before "lrn2play"...oh, dang.
Lambda was sold on being completable with an 8 man team, and the raid system is designed for PUGs. From what I saw those two are simply mutually exclusive. There's also the fact of the matter that the molecular acid is so wildly more valuable and raid-altering that I'm tempted the next time I run to have the entire league or at least a much larger group raid the labs rather than split evenly. |
Screw it, acids or bust. Just gather some grenades after the fact.
The off-beat space pirate...Capt. Stormrider (50+3 Elec/Storm Science Corruptor)
The mysterious Djinn...Emerald Dervish (50+1 DB/DA Magic Stalker)
The psychotic inventor...Dollmaster (50 Bot/FF Tech Mastermind)
Virtue Forever.
Quote:
Did it just this afternoon. Granted, we didn't think we could do it, either, but sure enough, it got done. |
Originally Posted by AkuTenshiiZero
Yep.
So how exactly did Marauder's personal legion get past playtesting? Because I hate to break it to you but there is no way that an average 8-man, randomly-selected PUG can deal with this. Call me bitter, but the content after GR has gone from bad to worse. Stacking spawns on top of stacking spawns. I remember when things like this were considdered a bug! |
These posts will be hilarious in 2 weeks when everyone cries about these things being too easy.
Quote:
To be fair, the grenades are a one use shot to cut Marauder's defenses. You'll probably still want to stock up with a few before he gets there, because otherwise the timing gets sketchy waiting for resupplies.|
Originally Posted by AkuTenshiiZero
Y'know what? I'm totally in agreement with that. Next time I attempt this I'm going to coerce my group into going after the acid exclusively. Honestly, what's the point of getting grenades quicker anyways? Apparently there's a time limit increase if you get both up to a certain amount. Hell if I know, I haven't seen that get accomplished yet.
Screw it, acids or bust. Just gather some grenades after the fact. |
Still, it's pretty obvious that if you don't get enough acids as fast as possible and shut down the portals immediately, your chance of failure goes up drastically.
As for the time bonus: Every time you get 1 Grenade and 1 Acid, you get a little more bonus time to loot and I think it also bleeds over into the overall time limit to defeat Marauder. But I bet an entire league could swarm the labs and clean up within the base time limit. Then maybe cut back up to the warehouse to get a few grenades, maybe...
Never surrender! Never give up!
Help keep Paragon City alive with the unofficial City of Heroes Tabletop Role Playing Game!
Yellow Dawn?!? You whippersnappers don't know a THING about Yellow Dawn!
THIS was a Yellow Dawn, sonny!
Now you kids get off my lawn!
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Quote:
It's ITF all over again. Which people are now bragging their duoing and soloing.
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Originally Posted by brophog02
Did it just this afternoon. Granted, we didn't think we could do it, either, but sure enough, it got done.
These posts will be hilarious in 2 weeks when everyone cries about these things being too easy. |
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Quote:
No, actually. This is much, much less friendly. I think playing on test when people had their Judgement and other higher level slots filled made me thinks this was easier than expected. I'm probably going to *wait* for people to get their next +2 level shifts before I start having to leech to get my destiny.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
It's ITF all over again. Which people are now bragging their duoing and soloing.
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I am *very* not happy with the developers. They barely seem to listen and they certainly did not converse at all. If this is a decree from NCSoft, please go tell them to stop mucking up your community.
Still here, even after all this time!
There's an expected learning curve, especially when it comes to content that is so very different than what previously existed in game.
I've run Lambda a few times today, both of the times as a PUG, and failed both times. I know that the reason we isn't any persons fault, but rather a part of the learning curve.
Something to keep in mind with Marauder, his adds (or his legion) spawn periodically from the portals and are meant to be a test of your groups coordination. Some sage words of advice after stage 2 (where everyone runs around gathering grenades/acid) are to pause shortly, remind folks to check their temp power tray, and then venture forth, taking out the portals.
Remember, not everyone reads guides, not everyone checks the forums regularly and not everyone learns new content at the same pace. Be patient with each other, help each other rather than chastise each other, be a team player and listen to instructions and most importantly, have fun!
Andy Belford
Community Manager
Paragon Studios
Really, I might have been on a pug, but it was a pug I built from the ground up. Between getting disconnected the first time we tried to enter the trial to crashing two times today and then failing miserably with what should be fairly balanced teams... I'm just ready to give up for now.
Call me when your content is actually fun, balanced and doesn't require railroading you through two trials to get the new powers.
Still here, even after all this time!
You're more than welcome to dismiss my advice out of hand, however remember that just as Paragon wasn't built in a day, a PUG group may not be taught new content on day 1 of release.
Patience grasshopper, folks will learn and in a matter of months people will be complaining here about how they can sleep walk through Lambda/BAF.
Andy Belford
Community Manager
Paragon Studios
We did fairly well on this with an 8 person PuG this afternoon, good leadership helped. We used the acid and that alleviated a ton of problems. Sadly, we didn't have enough to dent Marauder, but it was still very fun.
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
168760: A Death in the Gish. 3 missions, 1-14. Easy to solo.
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Quote:
Ohhh shi
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Originally Posted by Melancton
Yellow Dawn?!? You whippersnappers don't know a THING about Yellow Dawn!
THIS was a Yellow Dawn, sonny! Now you kids get off my lawn! |
The problem, Zwill, is that this is the *first* time that we've gotten more than 'go do this' in Beta.
There was a late patch (with no patch notes) on Beta on Friday or Saturday (that I think added the long range bombardment if you aren't close to Maurader and the current release is pretty buggy (with apparently no actual testing of the patch.)
Then you get into design flaws with shoving everyone through only two trials to earn your slots and you've started really upsetting a lot of people.
There hasn't been this bad of communication between the developers and the community since Jack was around.
Still here, even after all this time!
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That is the approach I take when I have only 8 people. We did that today, and got all 10 acids. Twice. |
Originally Posted by AkuTenshiiZero
Y'know what? I'm totally in agreement with that. Next time I attempt this I'm going to coerce my group into going after the acid exclusively. Honestly, what's the point of getting grenades quicker anyways? Apparently there's a time limit increase if you get both up to a certain amount. Hell if I know, I haven't seen that get accomplished yet.
Screw it, acids or bust. Just gather some grenades after the fact. |
Of course, nothing can help a team if, even after you get all 10, 2 portals remain open for most of the trial. Repeated calls in the channels to have people check their temp powers don't necessarily make that happen
I was expecting this be be about the ridiculous damage buff the 9CUs get the longer they're alive. Why? Because I came here to rant about it.
Quote:
Because every AT can duo or solo ITF.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
It's ITF all over again. Which people are now bragging their duoing and soloing.
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Because everyone will be able to duo or solo BAF or Lambda. You just have it all figured out.
Quote:
Being patient is the most important thing - I ran 7 Trials today, 4 Lambda, 3 BAF, and I'm 0 from 7 |
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
Remember, not everyone reads guides, not everyone checks the forums regularly and not everyone learns new content at the same pace. Be patient with each other, help each other rather than chastise each other, be a team player and listen to instructions and most importantly, have fun!
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I found it was a good idea to get people to check their Incarnate window so they could see the progress they were making on the new slots, so they wouldn't feel they weren't getting anywhere.
I also tried to emphasize that the main thing was to learn how the Trials worked - I think it's more important to work out what to do before you work on actually winning them - like let people see how the prisoners escape, or where the blind spot is to fight the AVs out of the way of the turrets, or the size of the Lambda Sector interrior maps, and how the acid grenades work to stop the reinforcements.
Getting people comfortable with what they're doing will help coordination, and it'll also help spread the knowledge to other first time Trial runners.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
There's a badge for doing the Trial without using any acid grenades at all |
Originally Posted by AkuTenshiiZero
Y'know what? I'm totally in agreement with that. Next time I attempt this I'm going to coerce my group into going after the acid exclusively. Honestly, what's the point of getting grenades quicker anyways? Apparently there's a time limit increase if you get both up to a certain amount. Hell if I know, I haven't seen that get accomplished yet.
Screw it, acids or bust. Just gather some grenades after the fact. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
But only if you actually get all 10 and then don't use them.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
There's a badge for doing the Trial without using any acid grenades at all
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Quote:
In a sense i agree with you. That is to say that both statements are true, but currently they are not true at the same time.|
Originally Posted by IanTheM1
In before "lrn2play"...oh, dang.
Lambda was sold on being completable with an 8 man team, and the raid system is designed for PUGs. From what I saw those two are simply mutually exclusive. |
You can do it with an 8 man team or you can do it with a random PuG, but until more people become familiar with the tactics needed to succeed it's silly to expect to do it with both at once.
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i make stuff...
Quote:
I know - there's also one for doing it with out the passives, and one for doing it without passives of acid |
Originally Posted by Chaos Creator
But only if you actually get all 10 and then don't use them.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
There's an expected learning curve, especially when it comes to content that is so very different than what previously existed in game.
I've run Lambda a few times today, both of the times as a PUG, and failed both times. I know that the reason we isn't any persons fault, but rather a part of the learning curve. Something to keep in mind with Marauder, his adds (or his legion) spawn periodically from the portals and are meant to be a test of your groups coordination. Some sage words of advice after stage 2 (where everyone runs around gathering grenades/acid) are to pause shortly, remind folks to check their temp power tray, and then venture forth, taking out the portals. Remember, not everyone reads guides, not everyone checks the forums regularly and not everyone learns new content at the same pace. Be patient with each other, help each other rather than chastise each other, be a team player and listen to instructions and most importantly, have fun! |
The problem with this line of thinking is that you expect the PUG to listen when we repeatedly make statements in chat about the Acid Temps. I'm 0-8 I think on Lambda with PUGs and it all comes down to someone not using the Acid temps, we will sit there and beat the crap out of the canister and no one pipes up about having the temp and sure doesn't use it. By the time it's too late there is about 100 baddies hanging out with Marauder who are unstoppable.
BAF is doable with a PUG (although please check into the rez bug I witnessed tonight where Nightstar was rezzed by a dead Siege), but Lambda is not doable with a PUG with any amount of people if people who get temps don't pay attention or just cannot be taught. Give out more of the Acid Temps at least so if there are people being shoddy there's a greater likely hood of someone else having the temp and being able to pick up the slack. If there are 10 portals, have 15-20 temps available during the in house cleaning. Just sayin'
Overall, excellent work on end game content though, this stuff could last forever.
"PvP Messiah"
Yep.
So how exactly did Marauder's personal legion get past playtesting? Because I hate to break it to you but there is no way that an average 8-man, randomly-selected PUG can deal with this. Call me bitter, but the content after GR has gone from bad to worse. Stacking spawns on top of stacking spawns. I remember when things like this were considdered a bug!
The off-beat space pirate...Capt. Stormrider (50+3 Elec/Storm Science Corruptor)
The mysterious Djinn...Emerald Dervish (50+1 DB/DA Magic Stalker)
The psychotic inventor...Dollmaster (50 Bot/FF Tech Mastermind)
Virtue Forever.