Longbow are flat out overpowered.
By
Arc_Salvo,
Posted on: 2005-12-17 12:35 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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All these reasons are why they are worth more XP than normal.
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Unfortunately, it is also reason that they become content exclusive to groups. The game as it stands is content-poor at higher levels, which makes this a dubious decision. What content that exists should probably be available while solo playing as well as grouping (especially for those clases like Brutes, which are billed as adept at soloing, but which simply cannot do so without toggles).
-- Doc Q / Gideon Krieger
I think the one with the blonde ponytail is cute. ;P
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Longbow Nullifiers
-Have plenty of regular damage to go around.
-At level 40 gain an AoE hold that can punch its way through a Brutes protection. Thats a bit rediculous.
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Theese guys untoggle my granite armor on my Stone brute, cause their hold goes through granites protection, and make her flying for like 1ms. Granite + Fly = 
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I think the one with the blonde ponytail is cute. ;P
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You mean Flamethrower Barbie?
"A good Defender is the battle hardened Corpsman who will kill a Nazi with a tongue depressor while putting a splint on your leg, then hand you a fresh clip of ammo." ~Jock_Thompson
Repeat Offenders, TNT Profile, My little hero
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I think the one with the blonde ponytail is cute. ;P
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You mean Flamethrower Barbie?
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Yeah.
Totally not like her friend, ninja badass Spec Ops Skipper.
I hate that [censored].
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Wanna hear something funny? Heroes are making an all-too similar point about arachnos troops in this post.
Coincidence? I think not. I'd wager both groups are functioning exactly as intended.
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Well, villains fight both longbow and arachnos a fair amount, while as far as I know heroes never fight longbow (that would be weird).
Having fought alot of both I can confidently say that I find longbow to be much harder. Arachnos sure looks cooler, though...
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Carnie Ring Mistresses pwnzzz all.
CoT Spectral Minions are a pain, Ringies are death. I'll face hordes or Longbow, Wyvren *and* Arachnos any day before facing Psi attacking Endurance vampires.
Still here, even after all this time!
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I'm going to have to jump into the "not overpowered" wagon.
As my brute I've never been mezzed by an energy melee warden boss. The lingering radiation does hurt as it kills my recharge and regen rate. The warden boss that came closest to killing me was a grav/kin warden. For that one I had to use earths embrace and about 10 respites. I don't call that so much overpowered as I do challenging.
All of this is on the 'Ruthless' setting, I believe which is the equivelent to 'Unyielding'. When I was DOs in Bloody Bay, I was on vicious.
Granted I do have some advantages, such as I tp in and total focus the boss. But then he wanders away flying while I'm rooted, so that's not too much of an advantage.
I can also take on longbow on vicious with my corruptor without to much of a hassle.
My personal opinion is leave them as they are, I enjoy the extra xp.
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Uh huh. You do realise we're not even talking about low level longbow? They're easy during the low levels. They're much harder when you hit 40.
I understand that part of the reason behind the Flamethrowers is that they are a counter to MMs... and they are not much of a problem to, say, solo Brutes...
But brutes have their own problems, mainly, holds that punch through their status defense. Stalkers have the same problem, one AS and then they're held, their toggles drop and it's a free trip to the hospital.
Devs kept thinking up evil tricks to deal with the villain ATs, which is fine, but there was no reason to put ALL of the dirty tricks with one single overpowered group.
Other groups do not have anything coming close to the sheer number of overpowered mobs. Tsoo have, what, sorcs? the "ink" minions with mez? Maybe you could count ancestor spirits out of their sheer annoyance value? That's about it. Rikti have their damn monkeys but beyond that, nothing too bad. Carnie bosses are fearsome but I never had trouble with their lts or minions. Malta have the sappers but are limited to one per spawn. etc. etc.
Compare this to Longbow with overpowered mobs in all three categories (minion, lt, boss) and multiples in each spawn. Gah.
They aren't too bad before 30 but after 30... /cry
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Slighty off topic here, but did anyone ever do that mission arc with the Prototype Nullifier gun? You steal it from Longbow, then go fight some FreakShow and Sky Raiders (i think) with it. The gun itself drains all their end, and I think dropped all their toggles as well. Kind of a hint at the Longbow's twisted future hehe.
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Yep, I took the gun and went to Bloody Bay with it for a while. Good thing it only has 5 shots because it hit 4 out of 5 times and was a 100% endurance drain.
My main problem with longbow is that theres so many missions with then abd they have so little variety.
1-10 They're basicly just Blood Brother Brawlers in tights. Of course you won't even see them that range unless you street hunt or do the holiday mission.
20-40 They become the games main enemy group, and each unti gains an attack that fits with its overall theme every ten levels. They also get spec ops at 30.
Its almost like fighting a faction made entirely out of 5th Column Raserei Ubermenschen whose weapons upgrade every so often and have a resistance to physcial... and insane bosses.
Also they have like 30% resistance to my damage type so it takes me an extra hit to kill the minions.
They're not brokenly too hard though, but I'd raise the exp on them a little more.
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For my level 34 merc/poison mastermind, Longbow Flamethrowers are the only remaining reason why I keep the difficulty setting at Villainous or at most one above it.
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While I won't argue that Longbow aren't pretty dangerous, I feel that I should point out that I have the same powersets as you (Merc/Poison, level 38) and I solo all my missions on the highest difficulty. My longbow missions are level 40-41, and I never have a problem, except with the occasional boss.
If you can't do the same, then the problem is either your playstyle or power selections/slotting. Take out flamers fast, debuff bosses and lieutenants, slow them and make 'em run to you, etcetera.
For me, Longbow are a nice challenge on the Merciless difficulty setting, when solo. On a team, of course, they can be killer if you don't use any strategy.
Personally, I would like it if ALL enemies were like this.
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But even at Villainous difficulty, if I run into a spawn with three Longbow Flamethrowers, I lose every single minion in the first 10 seconds of the fight. With two of them, if I miss with Paralyzing Poison or if I don't see the second flamethrower in time and they both get their attacks off, I still lose every minion in the first 10 seconds of the fight ... even the Commando, who supposedly has damage resistance to fire!
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You lose everything in 10 seconds? Maybe you should try pulling a few instead of charging in. Put your minions around a corner (with the goto command) and pull the baddies to them. Debuff on the pull, maybe taking a flamethrower hit yourself to keep it from hitting the minions. There are lots of techniques for fighting Longbow with your build.
I play on Justice, and my character's name is Queen Bich (no "t"). Feel free to add me to your friends list and I'll let you tag along with me (Longbow mission, merciless difficulty) and see how I do it.
Proto nullifier gun drops all toggles, saps all endurance, and -recharges all powers. Comes with 5 shots. Later in the arc you get the production version, another 5 shots, so don't be afraid to use the prototype.
Personally, I took mine to PvP and scared the bejeezus out of a few tankers. As a Nin/Nin stalker... that felt good. Real good. Later on you'll get yourself a void hunter rifle... Which works just like the NPC version against Kheldians.
I love temp powers.
Something noone mentioned yet, but I've encountered Longbow Officers with some sort of passive or click status protection aura. Holds, confuses etc last a much shorter time against them, and nearby minions. This is a huge problem even to a solo Dominator, even with domination up they can't be chain held or confused, and can bring you down with about 3 attacks.
But this is what makes the game fun. Really challenging enemies that need more tactics than just run in and spam powers. Guess if you're on a bad or impatient team then it's best to just avoid Longbow missions.
A few folks have no problem with them.
I imagine they will when they are 40, and every group having a longbow spec ops who can drain your entire endurance bar wiht a single grenade that doesn't miss often.
Oh, I think they won't like it much anymore.
Dawnslayer on Virtue.
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Longbow is easy because...
- No caltrops
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MA bosses have all the Weapon Mastery Stuff.
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- No debuffing powers
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Radiation and Sonic bosses, and that one Warshade one (slows ARE a debuff)
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- No pet summoning
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Illusion bosses. BTW, the Spectral Terrors they summon come at WAAAAY too high a level. I've seen them at 43 in a lv. 32 ruthless mission.
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- No particular resistances to anything
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...Okay, hard to argue here.
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- No healing other than some bosses
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Well... okay, you mentioned those bosses.
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- No holds, imob, or sleep other than the rare stun or web gernade
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Mind control/Empathy bosses.
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- No phase shifting or teleporting
- No self rez'ing
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Okay, there's that. It what makes me hate Wailer Kings.
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- No particular resistances to anything
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...Okay, hard to argue here.
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Smashing/Lethal. There's a *lot* of smashing/lethal heavy damage sets in CoV.
Folding@Home
Photoshop doesn't make a good artist.
I have a 37 Nin/Nin stalker. I personally have no problems soloing Longbow missions -- the problem I have comes when I'm in large groiups, which can cause bosses to spawn in virtually every set of mobs in the missoin, sometimes 2 at a time.
I personally think that Certain longbow wardens are harder to solo than Elite bosses from other factions. But solo difficulty is largely controlled by your powerset, and the particular vulnerabilities (or lack thereof) of the specific foe you are fighting. The real test is in groups.
I had one Longbow mission that nearly caused me to lose two groups. The first time I tried it, everyone quit on me, after frequent wipes. The next day I joined another group. Leader picked my longbow mission that I warned was very hard. We almost had a repeat of the same thing that happened the previous night, until after 2 people quit, the leader got 2 friends who were like 2 or 3 levels higher than the mobs level onto the team.
I believe that missions ought to be challenging. And definately part of the progblem is that people do silly things on teams, like playing the same way they do solo. Maybe if pickup groups were better, I'd feel differently. But the Longbow missions are, overall, too hard for the average pickpu group. I don't solo as much as some of you, but some of my longbow missions have turned me into a soloist, simply because they are too hard for the types of groups I've been getting. So I largely agree with those that think that Longbow ought to be nerfed.
-Haldur
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A few folks have no problem with them.
I imagine they will when they are 40, and every group having a longbow spec ops who can drain your entire endurance bar wiht a single grenade that doesn't miss often.
Oh, I think they won't like it much anymore.
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I guess you missed the part where I mentioned that I'm fighting level 40-41 Longbow, and I'm 38. So I'm fighting the same enemies at 38 that you are at 40 and not having the same troubles.
Yes, they are tough. I don't want the game to be easy.
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I believe that missions ought to be challenging. And definately part of the progblem is that people do silly things on teams, like playing the same way they do solo. Maybe if pickup groups were better, I'd feel differently. But the Longbow missions are, overall, too hard for the average pickpu group. I don't solo as much as some of you, but some of my longbow missions have turned me into a soloist, simply because they are too hard for the types of groups I've been getting. So I largely agree with those that think that Longbow ought to be nerfed.
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They should be nerfed because pickup groups do stupid things? That's rediculous. I don't want the game made easier so that idiots won't get debt.
Train your pickup groups. When I invite people, I take the time to give everyone instructions on tactics, and I listen to other players if they have good suggestions too. I generally have very good luck with pickup groups, for the above reasons.
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All these reasons are why they are worth more XP than normal.
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Thats grand and all and should have been put into effect along time ago with many of the other villan groups, and perhaps in some cases reduce the exp.
HOWEVER
By far the most important part of this is that longbow are out right NOT fun to play against. It not even like they are a challenge there virtually nothing a team can do but zerg longbow missions. You run in die...rez...die..rez...die...rez...etc.
I play with a great group that has been playing for many months pretty much all over a year now and we may not be uber goobers but we are extremely competant, that said unless I can bring the full force of my corruptor to bear on a longbow spawn odds are the brutes are dead and there is nothing that can be done to stop that. Where is the fun in that? That is not a challenge that is called learned futlity, when nothing you do matters then you may as well just give up and either not fight them or toss yourself mondlessly zerg style against them. Not fun either way.
Archnos is not much better. The night widows are just a highlariously stupid mob. They are more or less immune to mezz, have a solid +defense AND most importantly toss smoke greandes. Let me 'splain what these do.... Do you have +perception on one of your powers? If yes fight as normal If no then you have two options stand there and do nothing or die. Boy is that some fun running into a group of archnos with a team and then have all the baddies guys *poof* so you get to stand there and do absolutely nothing, that was a friggen brilliiant desgin decision, even better when they attack you, you STILL can not see them. The part of this that is really baffles me is that tactics is pretty much the ONLY solution for most ATs soooooo now everyone has to get tactics to survive the 40+ game. But because everyone HAS to have tactics now when they go into PvP the group of them has infinite accuracy and infinite perception which complete neagtes many other characters, making what is already a horrible situation in pvp far worse.
I should mention that the longbow do NOT have a super high magnitude mezz attack. What they do have is a toggle drop attack, like in pvp. I think it is the nullifiers, the bosses and maybe the occasional grenade from the spec ops. The attack lists no horrendus special effect usually I think it is just some def debuff that gets listed but in addition to that debuff anyone hit with that attack has ALL their toggles shut off. So a brute jumps in gets hit looses all their toggles and then since the toggle drop was merely one attack in the total volume of incoming attacks the brute gets a hit alot with no defense up whatsoever. The only solution I have currently seen to deal with this is leading in with lots and lots of AoE mezz.
It is worth while noting that the average longbow spawn on a good size team will include about 4ish toggle droppers, 2 or 3 total AoE END sappers, 3-4 of those crazy flamethrower guys and a boss or two that has a series of special powers. Of particular is the one with KO blow that will literally one shot almost anyone, perhaps even more amusing is that its attacks recharge so fast that it can chain two or three extremely powerful attack out on anyone. All that and longbow is an incredibly mind blowingly common and BLAND group.
While I am on this topic I would also like to mention the level 30+ tsoo ancestor spirits as overpowered. I have only encountered these a hand ful of times however they attack with KO blow, haymaker, and XXXXX attack in quick succession which is an attack chain that does holy hell damage. A common, nearly ubiqitous Lt can hit with sufficent force to drop a brute into the red or outright massacre anyone else. Perhaps if they were somewhat rare it would be ok but they come in swarms and four of them on a group of eight probably means that there will be several deaths. Which again is not a challenge but a binary situtation. You fight <x> you die no matter what no either do not fight <x> or realize that the fight is futile and zerg it.
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Wanna hear something funny? Heroes are making an all-too similar point about arachnos troops in this post.
Coincidence? I think not. I'd wager both groups are functioning exactly as intended.
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Or maybe it's the players that are functioning below thier capabilities because of Enhancement Dummification? That's got to be one of the top 10 worse game ideas EVER! Right nextto the PS2 HDD!
Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
Arc Name: Tsoo In Love
Arc ID: 413575
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The wardens are just insane. I've seen an SS/Inv one kill my friends em/inv brute in something like 3 seconds.
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Hmm... maybe the Longbows haven't been "diversified" yet.
What ever happened to the saying "Strength Through Diversity" anyway?
I really dont have a problem with Longbow my self. They are hard, yes, but they are a challenge and can be fun.
Maybe becasue I do all my longbow mishes with my MM and my MM sg buddy. But we run the mishes on Relentless and face +2 and +3s. We have our deaths but if we play smart and actully think before rushing in, we have less/no deaths.
And like Posi said, they are more XP 
If anything, Scrapyarders suck more than anything Iv faced so far..... I just dont understand why a bunch of angry miners hurt so much & are so powerfull... 
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- No pet summoning
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Illusion bosses. BTW, the Spectral Terrors they summon come at WAAAAY too high a level. I've seen them at 43 in a lv. 32 ruthless mission.
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I've also seen them summon a particularly spiffy Singularity, whose immob does 126 damage PER TICK. I tell ya, it makes me feel rather inadequate. I'm a Gravity Dom myself, and my Sing's Crush does *7* damage a tick.
I try not to think about it....
EDIT: Btw, that Sing was a mere +2.
Honestly folks, it all comes down to tactics. I hate to say it but with a little thought you can pretty much mess up any NPC heroes (Or villain for CoH side) battle tactics. We all remember Malta and what a pain in the butt they are, but we all learned to take out the Sapper first.
With the bad AI design of CoV mobs we just need to use it to our advantage. We're villains! When in comic book history did we ever fight fair? Only when the odds were massivly in our favor. So tip the odds in our favor here. Use hit and run tactics. If your a MM sacrifice your pets using Agressive option. Target a baddie and send them in, then put them in stay mode and stay back and help when you can. When it goes south you bail and let your pets take the fall, they're minions and they dont matter.
Your a Stalker? Now my xp with them is limited because I dont think they were properly set up in the first place. Plactate or whatever it's called doesnt cut it. There should be a power that lets you draw one of the NPC's from the group for you to deal with them. Think Obi-Wan in the original Star Wars when he did that little force thing to distract the Stormtroopers. Give it a to hit and if it fails your pulled out of hiding, whatever. Anyways! Thats not the point. Assassin strike and RUN. Dont forget that rest recharges faster. It's the most unused power in the game from what I've seen.
Corruptors, just like a blaster use your own dirty tricks and hit and run techniques against these bozo's.
And Brutes, well heh. Use limited hit and run techniques to take out the one or two or three annoying mobs and then do what you do best, SMASH!!!
Of course this is all from the soloist point of view. Grouping is a whole other animal and to cover it would make this post oh sooooo much longer then it already is. Use you groups strengths and find your enemies weaknesses. It can be done.
And for God sakes devs. Dont nerf anything for at least another 6 months to a year. Lets remember that most villains dont even have SO's in their powers yet. We cant afford them because of the crappy Infamy to Prestige designs you put in. (Thats a whole other rant right there!)
'If Champions Online is what "CoH was supposed to be", I'm glad that I have what I have rather than "what it was supposed to be".' - The Alt oholic
"I solo'd Hamidon...but I also totally cheated." - Back Alley Brawler
"It is still early. Someone is going to get stabbed tonight I can feel it." - Ishmael (said in Jello Shooters chat)
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There are times when I swear that every [censored] enemy in the game gets a [censored] grenade launcher, and they all use it first thing. It's just silly. And disorients...man I HATE disorients. They're essentially holds when used on us, yet when we use them on enemies they just cause mass scatter.
Btw, someone posted about Night Widows and their Smoke Grenades, and I agree that they're ridiculous. I've been on teams vs them, and they have essentially made me unable to do anything at all, because there's nothing to target. It might as well be a hold. Funny, SG for a Blaster doesn't do that....
Btw, the worst Longbow "attack" is that slow debuff. Is it Lingering Radiation? Yeah, that could be it. My god man, there's just nothing like just standing there while every single attack in your arsenal is just a little pinprick. And it seem to last a bloody long time. There is no inspiration to cure slow.
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You could very well be talking about the CoT, Lost or Vahz here... I find all those far tougher than Longbow.