Longbow are flat out overpowered.
By
Arc_Salvo,
Posted on: 2005-12-17 12:35 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
[ QUOTE ]
1) Longbow have an XP Bonus
[/ QUOTE ]
Rularuu and Vahzilok have an XP bonus too, but none of them have magical "I win" powers.
Automatic toggle-drop? Sometimes I wonder about the designers.
@Mindshadow
[ QUOTE ]
4) The Sonic Concussion power blows through anyones Hold protection, but it only lasts 1/4 of a second. It is working as designed, however, I'll pass this to geko to see if it is too strong of an effect.
[/ QUOTE ]
One problem with the .25 sec hold is I don't know my toggles dropped until I'm deep in the red, at which time its usually too late.
That said, it doesn't happen often enough that I really get annoyed about it, and now I target first the guys that throw it.
EveryNighters:
Tar Heel Lvl 50 Inv/SS Tank
Knight of Purgatory Lvl 50 Fire/Ax Tank
Kilmainham Wall Lvl 50 Stone/Stone Tank
Re-Fridgerator Lvl 50 Ice/Ice Tank
Yankee Doodle Dandy Lvl 50 Will/Eng Tank
Teen Tar Heel Lvl 50 MA/SR Scrapper
EvilNighters:
Tar Heel Dead Lvl 50 DD Brute
Hmm.
Don't think I've seen more than two Spec Ops in a spawn- and they might've been from two close spawns that aggro'd together. I have seen some rooms and maps where you can get a very nasty 'chain aggro,' particularly in the sewers with larger teams- one group alerts, which alerts another, and another, until you're fighting the entire room's spawns at once.
As for the quarter-second, unresistable hold...
Well first off, I can already think of a way for my main to get around this. It'd definitely affect him, being a Ninjitsu Stalker- but I should have the abilty to mitigate it. I just have to slap down a smoke bomb after the toggle drop, giving me ten seconds to vanish. But that isn't an option everyone has.
I admit I'm skeptical about the balance of the power, just because of how everything's been set up to this point.
There's always a defense against an attack in game- be it defense, damage resistance, status protection, whatever- there's a counter to it. Damage of a particular type? Resist it. Damage with no type? Defense. Disorient, Sleep, Hold, Immobilize, Knockdown? Status protection. Slow? Speed buffs. Stealth? Perception. It doesn't give you 100% immunity, but it gives you something. If you get hammered enough you are going down- but if you have the appropriate defensive power, you should be alright for at least a little while.
This Sonic Concussion thing seems to break that balancing act, declaring that flat out it will happen to you. That might not be entirely the case- I don't know the full details here. Is it autohit or is it something you can dodge? Is this a PBAoE, a ranged AoE? Single target? Is it something you see used over and over, or is it likely to be used only once or twice in a fight due to recharge?
Sappers have long been a thorn in the side of heroes, just because they can drain your endurance down to nothing and then Hold you while their buddies change you into a red stain on the carpet. But there's been ways around them found- take them down first, get some of those lovely endurance buffs, Confuse 'em, Hold 'em, and so on. I've heard, in the heyday of such things, of Regeneration Scrappers who idly stood still and watched Sappers try desperately to drop their endurance bar below full- in vain.
As a Stalker, I'm already a brilliant team 'defense' against Spec Ops and other stealthy enemies- I can take them down first, and Ninjitsu's Danger Sense gives me a perception boost so I can keep track of them. Masterminds have a defense too, of a sort- their pets don't care of the Mastermind's Held or had his toggles dropped, they act independently. This does seem to be a serious pain in the rear for Brutes, however- short of carrying a tray full of defense buffs or resist buffs, they don't have much they can do to stop this from hurting them.
I think the point here is that you guys regret the current way that status protection works.
The problem is they frobbed all the knobs at once, and now game balance is all over the map.
In your attempts to provide some level of danger to Tankers and Scrappers before I5 and I6, you have made the high end game LOADED with status effects, to the point that playing any build without status protection is just a pain.
Don't get me started. My 32 Peacebringer has about convinced me to delete every character I have without status protection.
That still didn't do anything, so you lowered status protection for melee types.
Which was done on the sly, and never explained or justified.
If you really want to see the melee types get affected by status effects, how about you do this instead:
They could just cancel everyone's accounts instead; it would save time. The game needs less status effects, not more.
Give bosses a high enough magnitude knockback to defeat Tanker/Scrapper/Brute/Stalker knockback protection, unless they are using one of the tier 9 overload powers (and give Ice, Dark Armor, and Fire one of those, please?) or an outside buff like Increase Density. Knockback is a staple of comic book melee fights, and knockback suppression should be enough to keep it from being annoying.
Um, no. Just because something works in comic books doesn't mean it works in a game. I have had more than enough of being thrown around the map. It is not fun, it is not cool, it has gotten the aforementioned Peacebringer killed recently more times than I can count. I don't even want knockback on my own attacks. I don't want it suppressed. I don't want it at all.
Lower status protection (but not resistance) levels on the basic (non-overload) Tanker/Scrapper/Brute/Stalker powers again, so that it takes maybe 2 or 3 of a type to break through, with the exception of Knockback with respect to non-bosses.
Since we're down to magnitude 8 or so that's about what it takes now.
Remove hold/stun/disorient/immobilize/endurance drain effects from ALL MINIONS. Knockback is fine as long as it's considerably lower in magnitude than bosses, and isn't given to everyone.
Knockback is not fine.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
4) The Sonic Concussion power blows through anyones Hold protection, but it only lasts 1/4 of a second.
[/ QUOTE ]
This sounds like fancy-speak for "Toggle dropping in PvE" to me too. Renaming it doesn't make it any less annoying.
[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed. If you're going to make us slot up and run all these defensive toggles just to have a chance of surviving in melee range, we'd better be able to keep those toggles running. Toggle dropping is usually instant death for a melee toon. Even if you survive the initial damage onslaught, the long animation time needed to turn all those toggles back on means you'll probably be mezzed again before your protection is back up, and then the mobs kill you.
It's bad enough that after all the defense nerfs, you're still allowing PvP toggle dropping. Don't do it in PvE as well.
Skip
My Char. List and Market Transactions
HeroStats Developer
Legion of Valor
Iron Eagles
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
4) The Sonic Concussion power blows through anyones Hold protection, but it only lasts 1/4 of a second. It is working as designed, however, I'll pass this to geko to see if it is too strong of an effect.
[/ QUOTE ]
So that is a rather fancy way of saying that it will drop all your toggles...
Wasn't there enough aggro drawn over the other PvE toggle dropping mob to help show how bad this is?
[/ QUOTE ]
So, now we have 100% toggle dropping powers in game? I thought with all the threads and "hate" against toggle dropping that it would be removed from PvE at least.
Couldn't you just have a different effect instead of players (especially melee) perma-holding themselves in toggle activating animations?
If you do want to have a more sever effect, couldn't you just have the hold not drop toggles, but (still) hold you longer - say 2 seconds or something?
Or perhaps toggle suppression where you lose the "effect" the toggle provides, but does not turn off the power. I would be open to that. It would have near the same effect, but skip the not-so-fun part of turning on toggle after toggle and rooting ourself in silly animations.
The Longbow are fine. They are not too hard, they just present a different challenge than other mobs. Why is it that I play a necro MM (whose pets are very weak to fire) and I have never had a problem with Longbow Flamethrowers, even in multiples? Just plan your attacks, think about what you're doing and don't try to take on more than you can handle.
BTW, don't forget to play dirty, we're villains for cryin out loud.
I noticed you forgot to mention the 100% endurance drain AOE power that the Spec Ops have. I assume from this odd omission that the super sapper is "working as intended" and that this total toggle dropper, along with the Sonic Concussion power toggle dropper, that you just think it hilarious that brutes/tanks/scrappers can have all of what's left of their defenses erased so easily. I know this goes again the Dev idea of "fun" but I don't find being killed without being able to do anything about it very fun, or very challenging.
The Spec Ops end drain is not nearly as powerful as the Malta Sappers. Besides, Spec Ops don't use it every time, only sometimes. Malta use it every chance they get. When I get hit by a Spec Ops, I lose 1/2 - 3/4 of my endurance. I can still fight.
I went through all the Malta arcs as a regen scrapper so I am familiar with having my endurance drained and my toggles dropped. I died sometimes but it was fun. The Malta were a challenge because they were more difficult than a Rikti Monkey and they were something different. The Longbow are the same. They are new and different with a little challenge. I was happy when I got my first really big Longbow spawn and saw bosses with controller pets. I had to change my tactics but we won.
[ QUOTE ]
The Longbow are fine. They are not too hard, they just present a different challenge than other mobs. Why is it that I play a necro MM (whose pets are very weak to fire) and I have never had a problem with Longbow Flamethrowers, even in multiples? Just plan your attacks, think about what you're doing and don't try to take on more than you can handle.
BTW, don't forget to play dirty, we're villains for cryin out loud.
[/ QUOTE ]
Bah, their Flamethrowers are an annoyance on their own, but not overpowering. The main complaint is with regards to the added mix of Sapping and the concussion effect. You likely don't have much in the way of toggles as a MM, and even if you are stunned, if you're playing smart you don't have much personal aggro. So basically I figure you are almost totally unaffected by either attack. Sure, depending on your secondary being Sapped might present some challenges, but you also have ways to avoid that.
Unfortunately for the rest of us (or fortunately, depending on your perspective), we aren't all Masterminds.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
3) Spec Ops are limited to 1 per spawn point for generic spawns. There may be specific encounter groups designed with more than one, however.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry but if PvP missions are considered generic spawns this just isn't true. In a spawn of 3 mobs post 35 you will get 2 Spec-Ops quite frequently solo. My 40 Dom has the scars to prove it. 
It isn't insurmountable though, just very annoying at times.
As far as flamethrowers go well remember that for some AT builds flamerhrowers are actually much easier than any other type of mob. For example my Merc/Traps MM hits them with a Web grenade and they never get within attack range of me or my pets. They are kind of sad really LOL.
Personally I've never found Flamethrowers much of a challenge on any of my toons I'm not sure why anyone is having trouble with them. Until Spec Ops start draining END I've always found Longbow to be much easier than other most other mobs and better experience.
----------------------------
You can't please everyone, so lets concentrate on me.
I wonder what the mag is? Because I'm pretty sure that I couldn't get toggle dropped (let's call it what it is 
) through both granite and rooted by one nullifier. Though one could toggle drop granite by itself (though only having granite on would be suicide as my end would be drained entirely by a spec ops)
I don't like the mystery sonic emitter grenade (which btw, has a blank space as a status icon under my health/end/fury bar when I'm in it's area of effect) that takes away resistance . . .but I can live with that as I just leave the area. Has anyone else noticed the invisible icon? For example, I'll have a web grenade icon, a blank space, and then another web grenade icon.
[ QUOTE ]
1) Longbow have an XP Bonus
2) Flamethrower: The Multiple Burn Patches is a bug. I've put it on my list of things to fix.
3) Spec Ops are limited to 1 per spawn point for generic spawns. There may be specific encounter groups designed with more than one, however.
4) The Sonic Concussion power blows through anyones Hold protection, but it only lasts 1/4 of a second. It is working as designed, however, I'll pass this to geko to see if it is too strong of an effect.
5) Arachnos is fairly tough, too -- especially if there are Fortunata's around.
[/ QUOTE ]
After talking to geko:
The Flamethrower is by design, however there is a bug (well, it's really a feature with an unintended consequence) which prevents Henchmen from reacting properly to the power. I'll be fixing that portion of the power.
The mag 100 Stun is being replaced with a more standard stun (duration based, normal magnitude.)
Wow, just curious, what was the reasoning behind even releasing a spawn with a power that is in effect 100% unstoppable if it lands?
[ QUOTE ]
The mag 100 Stun is being replaced with a more standard stun (duration based, normal magnitude.)
[/ QUOTE ]
Thank you very much.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1) Longbow have an XP Bonus
2) Flamethrower: The Multiple Burn Patches is a bug. I've put it on my list of things to fix.
3) Spec Ops are limited to 1 per spawn point for generic spawns. There may be specific encounter groups designed with more than one, however.
4) The Sonic Concussion power blows through anyones Hold protection, but it only lasts 1/4 of a second. It is working as designed, however, I'll pass this to geko to see if it is too strong of an effect.
5) Arachnos is fairly tough, too -- especially if there are Fortunata's around.
[/ QUOTE ]
After talking to geko:
The Flamethrower is by design, however there is a bug (well, it's really a feature with an unintended consequence) which prevents Henchmen from reacting properly to the power. I'll be fixing that portion of the power.
The mag 100 Stun is being replaced with a more standard stun (duration based, normal magnitude.)
[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks.
However, I take it the spec ops having endurance draining power with the ability to attack while stealthed without suppression will not change, the fact that there are designed encounters with multiple spec ops will not change, and that fact that in missions with multiple waves of ambushes where the next spawn is set in motion before the last spawn is cleared means we could find ourselves dealing with many spec ops will not change?
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
[ QUOTE ]
3) Spec Ops are limited to 1 per spawn point for generic spawns. There may be specific encounter groups designed with more than one, however.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've been frequently seeing multiple Spec-Ops in solo missions on villainous, and these didn't seem like special missions to me.
[ QUOTE ]
4) The Sonic Concussion power blows through anyones Hold protection, but it only lasts 1/4 of a second. It is working as designed, however, I'll pass this to geko to see if it is too strong of an effect.
[/ QUOTE ]
It is most certainly too strong. 1/4 of a second is enough of a hold to drop all of your toggles. It takes more than 1/4 of a second just to get one of our shields back up, much less several toggles as you tend to need all of them to deal with the variety of damage types Longbow can throw at you.
I'm curious if you devs are regeretting the way you made toggles work in CoH. There's really such a black and white difference between having status protection and not that it really limits what you can do in the game.
At least that's what it seems like to me.
Wouldn't it be more interesting if status protection wasn't 100% effective like it is now, but when you're held your toggles don't all go down instantly? Maybe toggles would randomly drop as you're held, but it would take several seconds of continuous holds to knock them all out. It would have reduced the requirement for hacking on toggle drops in PvP too.
You could even play with giving melee characters a lot of status resistance, but little status protection (they reduce the duration a lot, but have a low mag).
[ QUOTE ]
The mag 100 Stun is being replaced with a more standard stun (duration based, normal magnitude.)
[/ QUOTE ]
Um, thanks, but...you mean that was put in on PURPOSE? A mag-100 stun! 100% effective!
Ye gods, I was thinking it was a bug that was going to be fixed...and it turns out it's (the infamous) W.A.I. The mind, it boggles. Whose brainiac idea was that? No, really, who decided that what enemies needed was a guaranteed hold?
Christ, I'm beginning to agree with Nosybidaj in the Night Widow thread...sometimes the devs just throw in a "Here's some debt" trump card. I'm reminded of that AV in CoH...the Council vampire AV, whatever his name is. I'm blanking out at the moment. Anyway, that sorry bastage (at +0, btw) hit my Regen Scrapper with a single Smite for just under 4000 damage, enough to kill me 3 times over. It would have killed an Invuln Tanker twice. It wasn't a challenge, it wasn't even a pwning. It was just...I have no words.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The mag 100 Stun is being replaced with a more standard stun (duration based, normal magnitude.)
[/ QUOTE ]
Thank you very much.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, great for the melees, worse for those without status protection.
I haven't had any real trouble with the longbow. The flamethrowers do miss me occasionally. The only ones that bother me are those damn flying ones because I have not flight powers or -flight attacks I always have to run away until the give up and fly back to the ground. Besides. I enjoy the extra exp. I get from them. I'd take nothing but longbow missions if I could.
[ QUOTE ]
The mag 100 Stun is being replaced with a more standard stun (duration based, normal magnitude.)
[/ QUOTE ]
Castle & Geko for President in 2008!
Motto: "Stuff gets fixed."
@Mindshadow
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
2) Flamethrower: The Multiple Burn Patches is a bug. I've put it on my list of things to fix.
[/ QUOTE ]
After talking to geko:
The Flamethrower is by design, however there is a bug (well, it's really a feature with an unintended consequence) which prevents Henchmen from reacting properly to the power. I'll be fixing that portion of the power.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is an AoE power that does more damage *per target* if the targets are standing close enough to be hurt by 2+ patches. AoE attacks are deadly enough as it is, this makes it real easy to die before you knew what happened.
[ QUOTE ]
The mag 100 Stun is being replaced with a more standard stun (duration based, normal magnitude.)
[/ QUOTE ]
Good job.
[ QUOTE ]
However, I take it the spec ops having endurance draining power with the ability to attack while stealthed without suppression will not change
[/ QUOTE ]
Are you sure it doesn't suppress them? I find them visible but transparent while they're attacking me, and I can target them normally both with the mouse and tab key. But maybe you're describing a scenario I haven't encountered, since I've only faced the 35+ mobs occasionally so far (usually while LK'd up).
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Carnie Ring Mistresses pwnzzz all.
[/ QUOTE ]
I had a big [censored] moment when running into just a Lt-class Ring Mistress during my Aura mission. [censored] is up with giving them a power that not only drains your health and endurance, but also kills your recovery and regen for over a minute?
[/ QUOTE ]
They've been able to do this in CoH since....as long as I can remember.