Longbow are flat out overpowered.
By
Arc_Salvo,
Posted on: 2005-12-17 12:35 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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There are extremely limited options for stopping a boss from actually executing attacks, and attacks like this can flat out anhillate 4/5ths of the ATs in this game on the basis of raw HP and damage mitigation.
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I'm not sure what to make of two entire ATs being labeled as extremely limited.
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I don't know what you're talking about.
To be clear, there are extremely limited ways for any AT to completely prevent a boss from firing their first attack. We have knockdown (which can miss and is guaranateed only on a few powers that cause it), toHitDebuffs (which bosses often hit through anyway), and Domination-powered holds (which doesn't work on all bosses, but is probably the most reliable of the ways) are among the most common tools used.
Or were you just not understanding what I meant we had limited ways to do?
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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This is better for everyone, how the hell is it worse for you if the meleers on your team are no longer getting toggle-dropped?
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Because a detoggled Brute, at worst, gets himself killed. A corruptor that's spending their day looking as drunk as Ted Kennnedy, on the other hand, tends to kill the whole team.
And, of course, is still detoggled.
Try playing a squishy for once, and you'll understand what I mean. My Stormer spends more time retoggling than he does blasting.
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This is better for everyone, how the hell is it worse for you if the meleers on your team are no longer getting toggle-dropped?
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Because a detoggled Brute, at worst, gets himself killed. A corruptor that's spending their day looking as drunk as Ted Kennnedy, on the other hand, tends to kill the whole team.
And, of course, is still detoggled.
Try playing a squishy for once, and you'll understand what I mean. My Stormer spends more time retoggling than he does blasting.
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And you still have not answered my question. How does the reduction of the stun, which dropped toggles on even Brutes, make things worse for you squishies?
Might be that a AT without status protection doesn't care if the magnitude is 100 or 3. Either will hold them, except now it will hold them for longer.
Though I don't see how this is worse than other mezzing mobs, though.
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This is better for everyone, how the hell is it worse for you if the meleers on your team are no longer getting toggle-dropped?
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Because a detoggled Brute, at worst, gets himself killed. A corruptor that's spending their day looking as drunk as Ted Kennnedy, on the other hand, tends to kill the whole team.
And, of course, is still detoggled.
Try playing a squishy for once, and you'll understand what I mean. My Stormer spends more time retoggling than he does blasting.
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And you still have not answered my question. How does the reduction of the stun, which dropped toggles on even Brutes, make things worse for you squishies?
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Punchy has it right, I think. I think what was meant was that now the replacement Nullifier power is worse for squishies. Before it was a guarnateed stun that was very brief. Since most squishes don't suffer as badly losing their toggles as melees (I'm including Stalkers on the melee side here), the new power is arguably worse for folks who get no mez resist. Not it can actually mez them for an appreciable time.
At least that's what I'm getting out of it.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Ah, I missed the bit about the mezz duration being increased.
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Since most squishes don't suffer as badly losing their toggles as melees
[/ QUOTE ]Eh, I really wouldn't say that. A regen scrapper or Energy Armor brute may suffer a bit from having their toggles drop, I don't think you can say a Dark Corruptor or Storm Defender is doing fine afterward.
But, yes, the issue is that squishies are going to be detoggled either way. Only now, we stay inoperable for much, much longer.
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Though I don't see how this is worse than other mezzing mobs, though.
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Exactly...squishies have always had to deal with mezzing mobs in some way. I can certainly appreciate that they don't want to be mezzed at ALL, and if they are, that it's only for .25 seconds, and now it'll last...what, 5? 10? I dunno, never timed how long an enemy hold like that lasts. However, this is not precisely NEW for a squishy to be wary of mezzes.
It IS new for a Brute or Stalker to get mezzed (well, at least since they got their status protection power, if they have one), but really, that is NOT the issue here. The issue here is that even garden-variety Longbow were 100% guaranteed to be able to completely detoggle even the most status-resistant of ATs. It was a trump card, pure and simple, and the mind STILL boggles that a dev would pull such a cheap tactic.
It's just the principle of the thing...those ATs either HAVE status protection or they don't. The mere fact that the devs decided to give an enemy, and a Lt-level at that, the ability to just utterly negate ALL defenses, no matter the AT...it's staggering. It's damn near terrifying in its implications: could it be the beginning of a trend?
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This is better for everyone, how the hell is it worse for you if the meleers on your team are no longer getting toggle-dropped?
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Because a detoggled Brute, at worst, gets himself killed. A corruptor that's spending their day looking as drunk as Ted Kennnedy, on the other hand, tends to kill the whole team.
And, of course, is still detoggled.
Try playing a squishy for once, and you'll understand what I mean. My Stormer spends more time retoggling than he does blasting.
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And you still have not answered my question. How does the reduction of the stun, which dropped toggles on even Brutes, make things worse for you squishies?
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A detoggled Brute can't keep aggro off the squishies. I know Brutes aren't tanks, but they still have taunt and still are in front getting aggro.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
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This is better for everyone, how the hell is it worse for you if the meleers on your team are no longer getting toggle-dropped?
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Because a detoggled Brute, at worst, gets himself killed. A corruptor that's spending their day looking as drunk as Ted Kennnedy, on the other hand, tends to kill the whole team.
And, of course, is still detoggled.
Try playing a squishy for once, and you'll understand what I mean. My Stormer spends more time retoggling than he does blasting.
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And you still have not answered my question. How does the reduction of the stun, which dropped toggles on even Brutes, make things worse for you squishies?
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A detoggled Brute can't keep aggro off the squishies. I know Brutes aren't tanks, but they still have taunt and still are in front getting aggro.
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Exactly, if the toggles drop for the squishy in a team setting, the brute can cover them since his toggles are still up. If it happens solo, well, thats what break frees are for. The only time the duration will matter is soloing.
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You know, Venture, I'm still shocked every time I read your posts post-I6. If there is one thing that I5 and I6 did for the good of the game, it was to bring the board community closer together. :P
I call's 'em as I see's 'em. I was in favor of the I5 changes, but ED is just absurd.
But part of this deal was to lessen the status effect frequency, both by removing them from minions, and by adding status suppression to PvE, like there is in PvP.
As someone earlier in the thread noted, many players are playing nothing but melee ATs just so they can get away from status effects. If the devs make the melees vulnerable, people are going to get disgusted and leave. It's far too late in the day to go there.
In any case this is not a "deal". There is nothing to negotiate over. The game needs less status effects, period. That does not mean that ATs which were previously unconcerned with them should suddenly succumb to the affliction as "compensation". It means the developers have to learn how to challenge the players without breaking out the kryptonite. 100% effective stuns shouldn't be necessary now that everyone's powers have been gutted.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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The mere fact that the devs decided to give an enemy, and a Lt-level at that, the ability to just utterly negate ALL defenses, no matter the AT...it's staggering. It's damn near terrifying in its implications: could it be the beginning of a trend?
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I thought the idea was to make make some of the mobs as much like PCs as possible. This is exactly what you face in PVP.
So the advice all the controllers and defenders would give is to just have a break free on hand nad shut up --- except some of them want break frees eliminated or nerfed.
Anyway... I still dont get it. Longbow have never been a problem for me. Only thing I find tough is when there is a spines warden.
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It's just the principle of the thing...those ATs either HAVE status protection or they don't.
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Tell that to my Force Fielder.
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The mere fact that the devs decided to give an enemy, and a Lt-level at that, the ability to just utterly negate ALL defenses, no matter the AT...it's staggering. It's damn near terrifying in its implications: could it be the beginning of a trend?
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*coughsapperscough*
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The mere fact that the devs decided to give an enemy, and a Lt-level at that, the ability to just utterly negate ALL defenses, no matter the AT...it's staggering. It's damn near terrifying in its implications: could it be the beginning of a trend?
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I thought the idea was to make make some of the mobs as much like PCs as possible. This is exactly what you face in PVP.
So the advice all the controllers and defenders would give is to just have a break free on hand nad shut up --- except some of them want break frees eliminated or nerfed.
Anyway... I still dont get it. Longbow have never been a problem for me. Only thing I find tough is when there is a spines warden.
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Yes, that was the idea.
It was an idea that many people, myself included, strongly dislike. First, the "joy" of PvP is one that has eluded many of us and so bringing the PvP feel into PvE is not a step forward. Second, PvP, as we are always told, is optional, there is such a paucity of content in CoV that these arc are not. Third, if we have a PvP opponent we cannot deal with, we go fight other people or we go do PvE. In most cases, we must defeat those opponents. And fourth, a defeat in PvP is an aw, shucks I lost, a defeat in PvE has real consequences.
The difficulty depends upon the AT. My Mastermind has no real trouble either...once in battle, neither I nor my bots have toggles to drop, the only time I have endurance issues is while summoning/equipping them and my big gun bot doesn't seem to have endurance issues.
But having taken four scrappers into the upper 40s, knowing that being somehow stunned or held is usually followed by a trip to the hospital even if I have a break free and the devastation of a sapper, these descriptions sound as though any longbow mission would be unsoloable at heroic. For what are supposed to be the most solo-friendly ATs out there.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
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*coughsapperscough*
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I massively disagree with their powers too, and always have. No single even-level enemy, ever, should be able to drain all your end or HP in a single shot. Not even AVs. Yeah, there were ways around Sapper end drain (SR Scrappers and Regens with MoG, timing it JUST right with a blue, holds, etc.), but I find them just as "unfair" as a mag 100 stun.
I have a problem with cheap-shot enemy tactics in general.
Question, though: don't the spec ops EMP grenades do damage to bots?
How do I put this, primal:
If any tactic which makes lower tier enemies dangerous other than a)extreme damage or b) summons is cheap, then you're free to have a damn boring game. I'd rather not have the developers fall to the level where that's the only way to continue the levels, if simply because my Defender has enough fun getting TKO'd by enemies as it is.
There are far too many better ways to make things hard then simply upping enemy damage. I'd rather have to deal with 'cheap tricks' than end up with an endless healbot channel.
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Question, though: don't the spec ops EMP grenades do damage to bots?
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Yes, they do damage, and there is some endurance effect. But, it doesn't disable them, because their defenses aren't dependant upon endurance-burning powers nor do they have to turn toggles back on.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
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Question, though: don't the spec ops EMP grenades do damage to bots?
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Yes, they do damage, and there is some endurance effect. But, it doesn't disable them, because their defenses aren't dependant upon endurance-burning powers nor do they have to turn toggles back on.
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SSHHHHHH... please dont give any MM deatils on the public forums. Our stance should always be we are ultra squishy and uinderpowered and totally dependent on other ATs.
My god if Jack ever gets wind of anything different--- i shudder to think.
Man, I'm feeling stupid today...having trouble getting across what I mean. I'll try again. (I've kinda gotten off-topic here.)
What I was saying is not that enemies do too much damage (to end and hp), but that certain enemies do too much in a single hit. It just shouldn't happen. If it all ADDS UP to you being defeated, or your end drained to nothing, that's fine. If a Boss or Elite or AV can kill you in TWO hits, we as players have the potential to deal with that too.
What we CANNOT deal with, is being one-shotted. Yes, I include the end bar in this as well...think of it like hp. There is NO challenge in this, it's just death, or detoggling. Mezzes at least can be broken, or negated with certain powers.
And yes, I do include AVs in this. NO AV in the game, at even level, should kill you or drain you in a hit. None, period, zero. Take us down to 1 hp, fine, but one-shotting should be out of here. I DO NOT CARE what AV it is, and I don't care what AT you are either. Even a Defender should be able to take a SINGLE AV attack and survive. Now, if that Defender's still there for the follow-up...well, can't help there. 
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The mere fact that the devs decided to give an enemy, and a Lt-level at that, the ability to just utterly negate ALL defenses, no matter the AT...it's staggering. It's damn near terrifying in its implications: could it be the beginning of a trend?
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I thought the idea was to make make some of the mobs as much like PCs as possible. This is exactly what you face in PVP.
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Guess what?
PvP is optional.
Not everyone wants it. Not everyone plays it. Not everyone gives one flat damn what it's like.
Moreover, many who do want PvP despise toggle dropping there.
And finally, players have powers that are massively unfun to players when they are used on them. Huge damage, massive debuffs, and frankly mezzes top out the list. We fight hundreds upon hundreds of AI foes per day, and those powers are useful and fun for us to use on the AI opponents. But what's good for the goose is not good for the gander, because we have powers that can devastate our own characters. Facing that with any frequency is frustrating, not fun. It's what AVs and Elite bosses are for, not foes we meet from 1-50 of in a mission.
So sorry, but your argument doesn't fly even with a good kick.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Man, I'm feeling stupid today...having trouble getting across what I mean. I'll try again. (I've kinda gotten off-topic here.)
What I was saying is not that enemies do too much damage (to end and hp), but that certain enemies do too much in a single hit. It just shouldn't happen. If it all ADDS UP to you being defeated, or your end drained to nothing, that's fine. If a Boss or Elite or AV can kill you in TWO hits, we as players have the potential to deal with that too.
What we CANNOT deal with, is being one-shotted. Yes, I include the end bar in this as well...think of it like hp. There is NO challenge in this, it's just death, or detoggling. Mezzes at least can be broken, or negated with certain powers.
And yes, I do include AVs in this. NO AV in the game, at even level, should kill you or drain you in a hit. None, period, zero. Take us down to 1 hp, fine, but one-shotting should be out of here. I DO NOT CARE what AV it is, and I don't care what AT you are either. Even a Defender should be able to take a SINGLE AV attack and survive. Now, if that Defender's still there for the follow-up...well, can't help there.
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I must be fighting a different long bow because I have never seen them one-shot anybody.
I have never found the end drain to be more than an annoyance.
Like popping a break free for a hold all you have to do is pop a blue and problem solved
I just still dont see how Long Bow are overpowered.
They are no worse than Crey or Malta
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I must be fighting a different long bow because I have never seen them one-shot anybody.
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The "Tanker" ones have Knock Out Blow. One hit from that can easily equal a dead Corrupter/Dominator/Mastermind and somtimes Stalker.
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I have never found the end drain to be more than an annoyance.
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If you mean from Longbow I can understand this, since it's not automatically full drain from one guy. Malta are a very different story. I have always found it terribly odd that the single-target malta attack is vastly less draining than the AoE version, which will drop most anyone's endurance to zero in one shot (Dark Armor and some Regen Scrappers excluded).
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Like popping a break free for a hold all you have to do is pop a blue and problem solved
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Not if it drops all your toggles first.
You also seem to have some bizarre notion that we can use an inspiration in every fight. Maybe more than one. How many inspiration slots do you have, exactly?
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They are no worse than Crey or Malta
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I gotta say, if you think Crey are anything close to Malta or Longbow we have to be playing different games. I respect some Paragon Protectors, but nothing like I do Malta Titans (missiles anyone), Gunslingers (ranged holds, knockback, big damage) Tac Ops Commanders (AoE stun of DOOOOOM), or any of the Longbow Wardens (Terrorize? Knock out Blow? Empathy healing? Flight?).
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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The mere fact that the devs decided to give an enemy, and a Lt-level at that, the ability to just utterly negate ALL defenses, no matter the AT...it's staggering. It's damn near terrifying in its implications: could it be the beginning of a trend?
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I thought the idea was to make make some of the mobs as much like PCs as possible. This is exactly what you face in PVP.
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Guess what?
PvP is optional.
Not everyone wants it. Not everyone plays it. Not everyone gives one flat damn what it's like.
Moreover, many who do want PvP despise toggle dropping there.
And finally, players have powers that are massively unfun to players when they are used on them. Huge damage, massive debuffs, and frankly mezzes top out the list. We fight hundreds upon hundreds of AI foes per day, and those powers are useful and fun for us to use on the AI opponents. But what's good for the goose is not good for the gander, because we have powers that can devastate our own characters. Facing that with any frequency is frustrating, not fun. It's what AVs and Elite bosses are for, not foes we meet from 1-50 of in a mission.
So sorry, but your argument doesn't fly even with a good kick.
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actually that was my point....
it isnt at all fun in PVP... so why would it be fun in PVE.
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There are extremely limited options for stopping a boss from actually executing attacks, and attacks like this can flat out anhillate 4/5ths of the ATs in this game on the basis of raw HP and damage mitigation.
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I'm not sure what to make of two entire ATs being labeled as extremely limited.
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