Shadestorm

True, but I was working in terms of a build that requires a single DA stack to softcap, as my chain fires DA every other cycle. Using DA as a damage slot and relying on a double stack was how I was set up before IOs and it's quite effective.

After I respecced to a single stack DA softcap, I found it was far easier to use that activation for another sting or flashing steel in stead of hitting DA again. Basically, I used an optional attack chain that sort of shifts gears depending on what I'm fighting, more often than not alternating DA and flashing for large mobs, sting and DA for single targets, and DA-DA, or DA-Dark blast (patron) for ebs/avs to stack def and -tohit.

Considering everything that's been said about GC in this thread, I might use my first I19 respec to switch it out for sting and see how it plays out though as there are some compelling arguments in favor of the power. I don't slot as much rech as some people, and my build is... odd which may have been the overarcing reason I found it a better performer. Hell, for all I know respeccing to GC might come out on top again.

Back to the OP though, as you've seen there are multiple ways to set up your ninja. Listen to what these people are saying about GC as it's all true, but the option between sting/GC is *highly* dependant on how your chain is set up.

Looking at your build again, and looking at micro's numbers GC might actually be your better option!

This is assuming a three power chain, not a four. Taking a four power GD>Sting>SD>DA chain, (melee def buff chain) or GD>Sting>SD>Flashing or a mixture of the two (I usually run DA every other cycle as its slotted to need one stack to cap) I find that Sting is the better performer.

True, but in a rech heavy attack chain you're actually unable to USE that better rech speed, in effect wasting the rech advantage of the power by letting it sit there inactive.

In terms of a four power attack chain, you're actually hitting GD-Power-SD-Power. Taking sting actually maximizes raw damage because although its animation is longer, and its rech is slower, it fits in to the chain without wasting its rech.

While the power itself is better DPS, and in terms of a non-set slotted build is the superior performer, you end up with less total attack chain DPS by taking GC in stead of Sting because of the amount of time it sits in the tray while you're animating GD or SD. This is where sting sits on better footing. With global enhanced rech to the levels of this build you're actually getting better DPS out of Sting because you're not wasting rech, and getting a larger chunk of damage for that spot in the chain.

Not that it's a bad power, far from it, just that if you're ONLY going to take one on a rech-heavy set build, Sting is going to serve you better.

Totally disagree. For straight damage, sting comes out on top, and while GC might theoretically give you a better proc/crit chance, when slotting procs in there you're also losing non-proc damage, in essence basically evening out total DPS.

However once you factor in any damage bonuses from IO slotting, you're actually getting more overall DPA from sting.

We already have those. They're called arenas. Add more maps or match types to the arenas if you like, as this que system is exactly what they already do.

I think the biggest issue is that the hide mechanic recognizes damage rather than being attacked.

This opens a whole can of worms though, as changing hide to trip upon being attacked rather than taking damage would effectively nerf def sets down to the level of res rests, it would instantly boost /nin to the level of "why take anything else" because of its AoE placate.

It think the general consensus that the non-def sets need to be looked at isn't in question, but as Leo has repeatedly stated, stalkers should have playstyle options. Like any other AT, those options are dependant on powerset selection. My thinking is that res and regen should really cater more toward the "scrappy" playstyle by offering superior mitigation wheras the def/utility sets that are good now should retain their greater potential for damage through hide.

I wish I could say it was as simple as "buff numbers on these sets" but it may very well not be, as the def/utility sets are still very potent mitigation. However I'm still of the opinion that its those sets that need changed rather than altering stalker mechanics as a whole to bring them in line. Whether by adding additional effects to some of those powers (maybe making the hide in those sets more like EA while leaving hide from the def sets unchanged?) or blanket increasing their effectiveness or both.

Thematically, you'd have a whole bunch of "special case" things that wouldn't make sense. However, special case setups make generalized buffs far less useful. Like the old stalker crits on held targets, or the current crit buff with a ridiculously short range. I'd see the range to be on par with the kheld inherant, which is IIRC about 300m. This means allies in the general vicinity, so you can't have door sitters buff you.



The intention was that the buff stacks regardless of combat readiness in 2 second increments. To reach the full potential of that buff, you'd be hidden for a total of 14 seconds. The idea was that you'd have a really solid alpha opener, but throughout the course of the fight you've got flexible options in terms of how often you spike, scrap, or lay low and catch a heal. Its about giving you the option on teams (especially large ones) or adopting a scrappy playstyle, or a stalky playstyle, or something in between.

Initially 14 seconds sounds like a long time to be "waiting" and that's the point. If you WANT to build it all the way up every strike for those ultimate AS's you have that option. However, it's boring to stand around in fights and do so. It does give you utility though. Got a hibernate? Is it your job to watch squishies? Do you phase? You've got a tool that allows you to maintain more or less constant viable damage regardless of the frequency of your attacks. This instantly shifts you in to the space of being ABLE to stalk in groups if you choose to do so, and do so effectively.


Distraction isn't a system that favors so much in terms of "in combat" Personally, I feel that only player teammates should count for these effects, as teammates with pets are already balanced in terms of those pets being part of the overall power structure of that character. There's no "in combat" limitation. Thematically, the stalker gets that nice alpha each group because the enemies simply didn't know he existed. Systemically, he gets it because it drastically increases the potency of that alpha which makes his alpha the most reliable one-shot there is. Frequently he'll end up wasting a lot of that damage on overkill. The larger his group is, the higher the liklihood that he can AS one ANYTHING, but the tradeoff is that with larger groups there are far more enemies per spawn. If he could get that full 140% on a team of two, it would be overpowered due to the total percentage of threat he's removing from the fight. Not to mention the crit potential on AoE attacks would likely allow him to just floor entire spawns in a single strike.

It's explicitly designed around team size because the problems stalkers have on teams are scalar. In a duo a stalker is an excellent performer, but as the group gets larger, his performance degrades because his alpha has less utility, and his potential for solid singlke target damage is less useful due to greater numbers of enemies.

Distraction is a balance check that's attempting to make the stalker useful in multiple team compositions by allowing him to leverage his alpha strike potentional more often and more reliably in larger teams with more targets.

All this is good thinking, but it's all very much focused on thematic reasoning that makes the system as a whole a total pain in the *** for the stalker. The point is that the distraction buff is easily readable and reliably usable without overcomplicating the stalker's group play.

Except for the fact that the loot rewards are coming from the pocket of other players. If you're going to game the system, you may as well cut out the middle man and just have him mail you the stuff.

It's simple, upon creation of a primal, or choosing a side with a praetorian, you gain the badge. Switch sides, lose badge. You're effectively just trading it for the greener/meaner badge anyway.

This isn't a totally horrid idea, but IMO it's still emphasizing stalkers in the space of straight up fighters. We have scrappers for that. They're good at it, and they're well designed to do it.
The original stalker crit mechanic was far more thematic. It emphasized the stalker attacking helpless targets and reinforced the idea that stalkers were not intended to be straight up fighters in the vein of scrappers or brutes. The problem was that it relied on a very specific status effect that only a single AT could leverage effectively (this was before coop zones, so you only had doms avaliable for this.)


Adding better crits to stalkers was the kludge IMO. Not only did it detract from what makes scrappers special, but it de-valued the hidden state, which is what makes stalkers different from scrappers just like domination is that one thing that makes doms differ from controllers.

They're similar ATs, but there's a key difference. Doms thrive on damage, while controllers thrive on holds. Similarly, Scrappers thrive on repeatedly hammering in damage (more crits) while stalkers should be thriving on controlled spikes rather than sustained dps.

Stalkers are by no means a bad AT, but the lingering problem is that the stalker's best tricks are increasingly devalued by adding more people to the team. On a full team, the stalker is systemically incapable of bringing anything worthwhile to the table that two other ATs can't do better. Thus, stalkers shouldn't be continually redesigned to compete with scrappers or brutes for melee DPS, they should be geared around doing exactly what stalkers do best, selecting a single target, and killing that single target as rapidly as possible, even if it means they can't repeatedly down multiple targets as well as scrappers or brutes.

Right, stalkers aren't defined by damage, they're defined by hide. As for the distraction, one *could* argue that PPP pets could fill this niche, but are curently poorly designed to do so.

Adding MORE powers to existing sets is pretty universally a no-no, but seeing as each AT has different versions of the epic pools... how about altering the stalker epic pools to include just such a device. I'd envision it as a stationary pseudopet that works like the Crab OMEGA MANEUVER (Hands down one of the most fun powers in the game) only without the explosion and with a larger taunt radius. I don't think any other ATs would complain overly if the stalker sets just got a bonus power that was a stationary aggro pet that deals no damage.

Screw that, that guy needs a whole unlockable epic pool!

Relaxation Mastry -

Drink Heavily

Eat Chips

Grant Chips

Social Drinking

Summon Sofa

Truth. Caltrops and smoke flash were the two powers I dropped when I decided to get more action out of soul mastry. Caltrops at the time was infuriating because the damage ticks dropped hide. I heard they fixed that, but never bothered speccing back in to it. Three years later I still don't miss them.

Luckily, with new inherant fitness I can have caltrops back (with a proc to boot!) but smoke flash is still remaining on my disabled list. I'm getting whirlwind and SS to go with my hasten in stead. Always wanted a second travel power, and whirlwind is just one of those "for teh lulz" powers I kinda always wanted but never had space for. The plan is to stick a +rech proc in it and use it as a panic button in a CDF when my heal is down. Fling people around and if I'm lucky get some bonus rech to bring my heal back up!

It would be overpowered solo, sure... but as part of a group buff I think not. Part of my entire distraction mechanics writeup is focused around doing all of the above without the impossible LOS calculations. Effectively, you're using the presence of friendlies as your LOS break, they allow you to re-hide quicker, and you get a damage buff the longer you stay that way.

Teammates do the mitigation job here in terms of aggro rather than a physical wall. Mechanically it accomplishes the same thing, only in stead of running away from the mobs, you're always running toward your next target.

This makes all of your attacks effective as alpha strike tools while still letting AS keep its place as your fight starting big hitter.

It's also important to remember that the game is supposedly balanced around 0/0 content, where a single spawn of enemies fpr a solo stalker is usually just three guys, maybe 4. Given those three guys, AS-Placate-scrap makes pretty quick work of spawns. Of course most of us don't actually PLAY at 0/0, but I remember playing through my 30s at 0/0 and my only problem was waiting for AS to recharge because the spawns were falling down too fast (and this was before the terrorize buff to AS.

I learned really early on that pulling was impossible (this was before origin powers, so on a nin/nin in the 30s it was literally impossible) but that my best friend TP foe could put things in my favor more often than not. To this day I still keep TP foe, and still use it from time to time to help clear adds off a tough EB or AV that I'm about to solo.

Roughly, yes. Playing like a scrapper is a lot like playing like a brute. You run forward and beat on stuff. Think back the the beginning of a stalker's career, or where you were prior to SO range. You did a LOT of AS, and a LOT of defensive placating no matter your set. A scrapper at that level plays pretty much the same as he plays IO'd out at 50. He's still running forward and beating the crap out of stuff.

My proposals weren't really centered on making stalkers more complicated. They were centered on making stalkers more useful in teams. Lets face it, as soloists, stalkers in general are fine. Sure some powersets might need tweaks, but the AT as a whole in in pretty good shape.

What I was trying to do with distraction and group placate was to provide stalkers with a more solid group role in a passive fashion. Everything in those proposed ideas doesn't necessarily change the way a new stalker plays, but just like any AT, learning what to do when and where for your team is the trick. A newbie tank versus a seasoned tank, or a controller, or any other AT develops a sort of AT-specific zen over time. You get in tune with the mechanics of your class and how your play can differ on teams.

With those proposals, even a newbie stalker is already seeing a benefit on teams, while a seasoned stalker has the power to leverage his unique tools in the same way a seasoned tank who fully understands taunts, bruising, and punchvoke becomes a much more desirable team player.

It's not about changing the way stalkers play. It's about letting stalkers play on groups the same way they do solo. If you're a scrappier stalker, you can do that and still be a big help to the team. If you're a more controls or hit and run style stalker, you can STILL benefit the team, playing exactly the same way you do solo.

Simply put, this makes teamed stalkers as unique an AT as they are solo. Your stalker isn't going to out-scrap a scrapper, out-tank a tank, or out-brute a brute. Brutes are built to get aggro and use it for smash power, scrappers are built to continually and sustainably beat the hell out of things, aggro or no aggro. Tanks are built to take punishment.

Stalkers shouldn't out-scrap scrappers. Stalkers SHOULD out-stalk any other AT. Wheras brutes and scrappers see their best group play through sustained DPS while holding limited aggro, stalkers should be the guys running around one shotting things with big numbers intermittently. In a tough mob, stalkers should be the most efficient means of killing the biggest, nastiest thing there is and moving on to the next because their massive alpha potential is simply wasted on minions.

My proposals are centered around exactly that. They put the power in the hands of a teamed stalker to use the same tactical finesse he's used to using solo on a team they shorten hide, and make hide, and attacking from hide BETTER on teams. So much better in fact that people want stalkers on the team because they're the difference between fighting the entire mob, and then fighting the three bosses for a bit longer, and just fighting the entire mob because the stalker was dealing with the bosses.

They make the stalker want to team with people because.. hell, 3 second re-hide on a full team and a damage bonus that just gets better the more you don't attack? Who wouldn't want to just run around one shotting things in that situation? Why WOULD you scrap? Why would your TEAM ask you to scrap? You'd be the only guy that even had the option of absolutely killing anything you wanted to in a rapid fashion as long as you weren't killing everything at once. That doesn't mean you're unable to sit and scrap, just that you have the option to bid your time, strike from the shadows, and be absolutely awesome at it every time, even on teams.

You'd have the power to proactively protect your teammates by using placate to make mobs forget about your squishies, or breaking off your next big spike target, running over to the nasty that's wailing on your squishy friend, and killing it dead in seconds. Not nine seconds after AS finishes, but NOW, because you already had that setup in the form of hide and distraction damage ready to release. You use the attack you were going to hit the next boss with and hit the LT beating on your blaster in stead. See, now you have options, and you have the ability to be reactive in the same manner the rest of your team can react on the fly with the best their AT has to offer. Only for you, it wasn't deciding to hit a taunt or a mez, it was using the time between attacks to watch and plan for the next big attack rather than simply continuing to attack. You were STALKING the enemy mob rather than simply laying in to them, and because of this you are an expert at choosing exactly who dies and when, but not quite so good as a scrapper at simply making everything die all at once all the time.

They did that. New defiance is about as complicated as this passive system. For the BEST damage, the blaster now needs to think about rech slotting and research the duration and magnitude of those defiance buffs from each of his attacks. However, if the blaster does none of that, new defiance still works! The guy who just spams attacks still benefits from new defiance even if he doesn't take the time to understand it and use it to its best effect.

Similarly, if the stalker doesn't bother researching the absolute best DPS based on distraction stacks, AS timing, and re-hiding versus scrapping the system will still work to benefit the stalker. He'll still re-hide faster between targets, and he'll still AS for more damage, and open out of hide for more damage while on teams.

Believe it or not, sitting on 2 billion is actually kinda hard for some people. Besides, we've got all those other inf badges.

Now DESTROYING 2 billion... Wait, you can destroy inf?