The stealth changes perhaps make the least sense of any of the I5 changes we have seen so far.
It doesn't make any practical sense that Stealth, Cloaking Device, or whatever should shut off simply because you attack. Thematically this change makes no sense at all.
Losing the def and stealth of these powers basically negates all combat worthiness the powers had. They are relegated to only being useful while moving or traveling.
Of course it all makes perfect sense when trying to balance PvP for CoH and CoV, but that is a seperate issue. 
It makes sense your seen if you attacked while stealthed. A good amount of the time in movies and heck, maybe real life someday 
If you attack while stealthed, your enemy knows where you are. Stealth is not PERFECTLY invisible. Its meant to where you can stand close and initiate an attack or 2 before they get a chance to fireback 
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This is the first indication that I have seen that the -Vis suppression occurs for PVP only. If this is true, then this is much more acceptable to me. On Test, this did not seem to be the case, but maybe that was a bug? In any case, I think 10 seconds is too long - if SS/SJ suppression is here to stay (and as I have indicated in my PM to Statesman that I think that SS/SJ suppression induced by toggles is a really bad thing - but that is for a different thread), then make the -Vis suppression the same length - 4 seconds. That way the stealth returns at the same time exit speed comes up so you can make a Stealthy retreat in bad situations.
The changes to Stealth and it's like powers make absolutely no sense. Stealth provided for Blasters, Defenders and Controllers the best and often only defense they could muster. The old number was reported at 7.5% or 5% which six-slotted amounted to 16.5% at most.
So now even minions would hit 1/3 of the time instead of 1/2. Sure combined with CJ and Hasten that became a bit too much, but Hasten's defense is gone and CJ is reduced. Taking away Stealth's bonus hit a power that many people liked.
As for the suppression, you're moving toward the standard MMO invisibility system whereby you drop your invis when you attack or are hit. I implore you not to do this. Stealth provided a number of tactical advantages that make it an attractive option for melee sets and ranged sets alike.
Stealth allowed you to split groups. It's very often in a mission that you will have two groups so close to each other than aggroing one will aggro the other. Even in solo missions where groups can be huddled near intersections or "hostage guards" can be near a standard group. Stealth allows you to manage that aggro.
I've long been a proponent of Stealth as opposed to the min-max standard of Tough/Weave for melee sets. It's because of the above tactic. That tactic is more fun to me than herding, but I fear that now the game is going to be more about taking all damage in an encounter.
Please don't take this away. Stealth suppression should only be for the mob (and that mob's group) and not any other mobs. That's how it works on live and it works well.
As for the defense, I would offer that 5% base defense with no suppression is fair. I know you're trying to reign in defense, but you've went too far (esp. against Ice Tanks).
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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The stealth changes perhaps make the least sense of any of the I5 changes we have seen so far.
It doesn't make any practical sense that Stealth, Cloaking Device, or whatever should shut off simply because you attack. Thematically this change makes no sense at all.
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Actually, you lose only half the buff, though. And it does make sense... Lets say your Solid Snake, and hiding in the shadows with around six guards out in the open about five feet away from you. Now, they haven't seen you yet, so your perfectly safe. Now, lets say you need to take one of them out, and whip out your non-Silenced pistol.
You cap one of them in the head, dropping him like a stone. Problem is, the other five guards now know your there, thanks to the fact that they just heard a fricken gunshot go off five feet from them and their buddy is now bleeding all over the place. Now, the guards arn't stupid. They don't know exactly where you are, but the fact that you just fire a really loud handgun has given them a general idea of where you are. So, taking their handy dandy AK-47 rifles, they open fire on the spot where they believe your hiding.
Now, because they don't know exactly where you are, their shots won't be accurate. But with *THAT* much ammo flying in your general direction, you can bet that one of them is gonna get lucky. So now you might be wondering, well what about the other groups in the area? They shouldn't be able to see him!
Well, lets say another group of guards come in. Now, they are certainly going to wonder why their buddies are suddendly trying to cast magic missiles at the darkness... Er, I mean, why they are unloading their precious, precious Ammo at that shadowy wall. Well, odds are they realize (Or the other guards comment) that there is an intruder there. So, naturally, they join in, trying to send our buddy Snake into that big ol' foxhound in the sky.
(Also, I only use Solid Snake in this example because he's a favorite of mine. Feel free to insert your own favorite stealth character. Sam Fischer, Snake Eyes, Sly the Racoon, it's all good)
While I do think that 10 seconds is a tad too long, what really boggles me is the -def on some of the powers. Why have a def component on the power at all if it is just going to be reduced at the very moment you even need it? I mean, you don't need defense while stealthed because nothing is trying to attack you. The stealth is your defense. Then you get into a fight and your stealth drops taking your defenses with it right when their use actually comes into play? It makes no sense.
I can understand why the Defense bonus is supressed, but the stealth component does not make sense(at least in PvE).
The game already causes whatever you attack to agro to you. The main benefit of stealth is to control how much agro you get.
It would be one thing if stealth had a lower endurance cost and didnt have a -speed component, but right now it gives very little benefit except to augment the stealth component of superspeed while traveling.
If you decide to keep the changes to stealth, would you at least consider alowing invisibility to be used during combat?
I think that the supression on defense is silly. You are stealthed through whatever means. Even if you are in motion, it may stand to reason that you are a shadowy figure that is moving fromt arget to target and is still difficult to see. Losing half of the already paltry defense that these powers offer seems like a harsh penalty. Although on further reflection it may be completely irrelevant as I suspect that very fewe of us will even be able to notice a change in the defense offered now.
The stealth portion is another thing that should not be supressed (I know, I disagree with the entire nerf - hard to believe huh?). If the power is active and consuming endurance, then mobs should have a hard time targetting you. I propose one of the following:
1. Have neither the stealth effect or the defense supress, but allow mobs to target you while you are attacking.
2. This power is consuming endurance. If while attacking you lose 75% of the power's functionality, you should also pay 75% less endurance to run the power during combat. I think this adjustment should go for all powers that are supressed though (I.E. superspeeed is supressed 100% during combat, a player should pay 100% less endurance while it is supressed).
3. During combat while using a stealth power, foes should randomly lose target of the player(s) using these powers or effected by these powers. Only after the player has used another attack power should foes once again be able to target and attack hte player(s) using or effected by stealth powers.
I actually think that #2 and #3 would work well together.
I know that none of this will be implemented, but they are my suggestions anyways.
If the DEFs on the pool/temp powers are going to be as low as they are now, then cutting them in half when visible is somewhat pointless. If they were higher it'd make sense. But there's really little reason to half them further when made visible.
I also think that 10 seconds is too long for PvP. Should be more like 5 seconds.
Why isn't Superior Invisibility a Primary Stealth Power? I assume that Superior Invisibility will continue to keep you stealthed when you attack [in PvE] until a mob is defeated; like it is working now. It would be appreciated of you reduced the END cost of this power.
Could you explain the difference between 'Critters' and 'All Enemies'.
Phantom Rose: Ill / Kin / Psi
Soleau: Ice / Icy / Ice / Core: Ice / Fire / Pyre / Wind / Eclipse / Flare / Corona
---------------
Solo Space
I can understand suppression of the "stealth" component when you are in combat. I do not understand the suppression of the defense bonus, because it is only useful when you are in combat, period. There is no need for defense when you are not being attacked. It seems as though the only time you would get benefit from the full defense bonus is if an enemy with high perception is firing at you, but has not hit you yet. Why not just adjust the defense bonus to an acceptable level, and keep it static. Suppression of the defense bonus seems like more trouble than it's worth.
Thanks for reading. 
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This thread is for you to provide feedback to the Devs on the above issue. You are allowed to post ONCE in this thread. Make it count! If you post more than one time - the extra posts will be removed.
If a dev responds this count will be reset.
Here's a basic explanation of how Stealth and Stealth suppression works:
Basic Stealth Powers (Pools, temp powers, and Powers not in a Defense set like Blaster Cloaking Device, Controller Illusion Invisibilities):
Toggles:
If you Attack, or are Hit - Critters see you. You loose half your defense buff (and your PvP stealth) for 10 seconds. Your translucency is reduced to indicate this change.
Clicks
If you Attack, or are Hit - All enemies will see you. You loose half your defense buff. Your translucency is reduced to indicate this change.
Primary Stealth Powers (Those in a defense set like Dark Armor/Cloak of Darkness, Dark Miasma/Shadow Fall, Storm Summoning/Steamy Mist, Warshade/Shadow Cloak)
Toggles:
If you Attack, or are Hit - Critters see you. (You loose your PvP stealth for 10 seconds). Your translucency is reduced to indicate this change. No Defense is Suppressed
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This is kind of wierd, if you attack, sure they're gonna see you, but the defense buff was there becauase you're still hard to see.Why do we need a defense buff when we're not being attacked?
It makes sense to an extent that you would be spotted when attacking, but it also brings about the question of why anyone would take Stealth rather than Invisibility. If you can't really attack and be "invisible" at the same time (which was the big selling point of Stealth early on) then everyone who was planning on having more than two powers in the pool in the first place should just take Invisibility, thus making Stealth a redundant and less-effective power in the same pool.
I heard that the change is in large part because too many people are using Stealth. In my experience, anyway, I rarely see anyone else using it...no pun intended.
What I really wonder is, why is this change being made at this point in the game? Just out of curiosity...
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This is the first indication that I have seen that the -Vis suppression occurs for PVP only.
In any case, I think 10 seconds is too long - if SS/SJ suppression is here to stay, then make the -Vis suppression the same length - 4 seconds. That way the stealth returns at the same time exit speed comes up so you can make a Stealthy retreat in bad situations.
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I think you misread, States said ALL ENEMIES see you(and PvP).
I agree, 10 seconds is too long. If it HAS to be done, and I don't think it does, then certainly making the suppression equal to that of the Travel power suppression is far more appropriate.
With that said, This is just another of the bizzar nerfs coming in I5. Stealth is probably one of the few really useful defense pieces for blasters and defenders. It makes far more sense to suppress the -DEF than the Vis anyway.
Think of all of your "stealth" heroes, The Shadow(though it could be argued he can attack with full Invisibility), Batman, Daredevil. They take a couple of swings and then fade away, leaving the rest of the villian troop staring around trying to find out whats hitting them. Including those that were standing right next to the guy who got knocked out.
Bizzar, and unneeded. The way Mob groups aggro anyway, Stealth might as well already supress in live. Just leave it alone. It seems(though this has been denied several times in multiple cases) that this "nerf" is driven by PvP(perhaps CoV specific) concerns. Truth is, I don't PvP. Most people I know, including 60 of the 70 folks in my SG don't PvP. This will effect me, and for evidentaly, something I don't partake in anyway.
Leave bad enough alone. Its one of the few things I can do to protect MYSELF as a blaster or defender.
i think this is how Invis/Stealth is suppose to work now
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Basic Stealth Powers (Pools, temp powers, and Powers not in a Defense set like Blaster Cloaking Device, Controller Illusion Invisibilities):
Toggles:
If you Attack, or are Hit - Critters see you. You loose half your defense buff (and your PvP stealth) for 10 seconds. Your translucency is reduced to indicate this change.
Clicks
If you Attack, or are Hit - All enemies will see you. You loose half your defense buff. Your translucency is reduced to indicate this change.
[/ QUOTE ]
these are the Stealth powers...the "not so invis" inivs powers
you arn't completly invisible you are ether just hideing or leave a trail or distortion so most people will have trubble seeing you, if you get up into Melee combat with them they only have a little trubble hitting you.
the 10 seconds are enough time that if you stop attacking they loose you
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Primary Stealth Powers (Those in a defense set like Dark Armor/Cloak of Darkness, Dark Miasma/Shadow Fall, Storm Summoning/Steamy Mist, Warshade/Shadow Cloak)
Toggles:
If you Attack, or are Hit - Critters see you. (You loose your PvP stealth for 10 seconds). Your translucency is reduced to indicate this change. No Defense is Suppressed
[/ QUOTE ]
these powers are much more powerful. you bend shadows around you, make a thick fog cover, ect.
after you strike foes now know you are there and can strike at you...but they still have just as hard a time hitting as you are still cloaked in pure darkness/uber thick fog.
hope that helps clear it up a bit
(Sigh) Getting tired of MMORPG's undergoing drastic change becasue of PvP issues. Seriously, what's the point of having stealth powers if they are not going to work?
Didn't stealth give you a defense bonus becasue you were hard to see?
Bah...what does it matter anyway? 
My question is why do things like Smoke Grenade suppress Stealth?
What is the point of a power that enhances Stealth if using it actually drops your stealth effect and then aggros them on you before the SG stealth effect hits?
@JohnP - Victory
I'm ok with when you attack, the affected critters see you. I'm not ok with attacking one and the whole aggro-linked mob falls on you with mindless fury. You are taking away tactics and options. Stealth-pulling is a tactic. And with aoe limits, is a much needed one.
Also, if you drop the stealth when attacked, please allow me to get the attack off before summoning the righteous fury of the mob. In the unlikely event my PBAOE hold is actually recharged, it would be nice to be able to actually complete the animation before the mob reacts. Either shorten the long animations of powers that have to be delivered at point blank range. Or drop the stealth at the conclusion of the attack, not at the beginning. Being locked in an animation as the entire mob takes a shot at you is adding pointless frustration on top of a number of painful nerfs.
Please allow for some type of combat useful stealth. Please.
My real question comes to what makes a power a basic or primary stealth power. Most of the divisions I can agree with but I am wondering mainly about Superior Invisiblity.
Superior Invisibility got a major boost last issue with now being able to attack while it was active. Many illusion controllers have since taken this as one of their major defenses. 6 slotting it with end-reducers and defence enhancers so that it is now their primary defense (other than their control powers). I can understand Group Invis being in the category of Basic Stealth powers but I would think that SI would be in the same category as Cloak of Darkness and Steamy Mist.
Also, just trying to fully understand the difference between basic toggles and clicks. What do you mean by Critters vs. All enemies. I ask this because basically when I hear the word 'critter' I think animals. Hence in COH - only warwolves (and maybe vampires) will see through toggle stealth powers. I know this is not the case. Does critter here mean mob where as all enemies refer to PVP targets?
I have to agree with everyone else questioning the -Def bonus when attacking. In combat is when you really need this defense. It does nothing for you to have a high defense while travelling to missions or contacts except at low levels within the Hollows maybe. And then you are usually a level 6 being sent into areas with level 14 mobs so the def bonus doesnt matter.
Why not just halve the defense offered by Stealth powers to begin with? This suppression garbage is just that. As someone already stated, "If you're not attacking, what do you need defense for?" I'd like to see the justification on this; I need a good laugh. Also, I could care less about PvP. If stealth is getting nerfed due to PvP, that's just wrong. Supress it in the arena... not when you really need it. Since when were blaster defenses out of hand, anyway? More retarded nerfs. Not to mention the fact that if you attacked while stealth, the inherent aggro from the attack MADE THE OTHER BAD GUYS ATTACK YOU. Must remember to send Nerfsman a thank you note. I bet he'd nerf it and send it back to me.
50 Tankers: Ice/EM, Stone/WM, Fire/Stone, Dark/Ice, Inv/SS, Inv/Dark, Elec/Elec
50 Brutes: ElecMelee/EA, WM/Elec
I posted this idea once before, and if the devs want something realistic and not based on PvP (that's their story and they're sticking to it) then it should work as follows: If you're stealthed, you're hard to see, period. So any single target attack towards you should suffer an acc penalty. However, whether or not you're hard to see, cone and AoE attacks should hit you simply because you're standing in their path.
This is probably hard to code. So they didn't take my suggestion, but it is realistic. Far more so than what they've come up with.
Other than for PvP purposes, stealth is now generally useless in combat. Not only does it suffer from the global defense reductions, but now half of what it does give is gone once you engage in combat. There really is no other reason to take stealth, unless you want to skip through missions, which I had assumed the devs didn't want us to do as we are skipping their precious content. So now I'm confused.
I know that I'll be respecing out of stealth on my characters that have it. Going to try the fighting pool, and maybe leaping depending on what the hero needs.
The only reason left to take the stealth pool at all is for phase shift (assuming the devs don't want us to take invis to skip through content).
I'd also like to say that these dev response threads don't work if they don't respond and give us feedback. Yes, States explained that he was away for personal reasons, but he's not the only one working there. When a patch goes up that changes one of these powers, the thread should be 'reset' so we can post about the changes. I know it really isn't any of our business, but it would be nice if devs (like cuppa did) let us know that they will not be posting between such and such dates. So that we don't keep coming back to dev digest day after day seeing nothing new.
And one final thing. Many of these posts are about things like defense numbers (most notibly in the ice tanker thread) and such. If the devs are willing to give up the numbers, why not let them be publicly available? I know they wanted this game to be easy to get into leaving all the numbers 'behind the scenes', but with so many changes happening so often, it would be nice to know exactly what is going on. For the most part we already have access to the numbers from all the hero planners around, but they can be innacurate or unknown to those that don't look through the boards here. The official stats should be available to everyone.
*exhale* Who knows when a response will be made to reset this, I needed to get my money's worth.
I don't even get what you're saying this does. Is there a difference between Critters See you and All Enemies See you? Is it that Critters means only PVE, and All means PVP as well?
I'm not too worried about losing half the defense buff, since with the new defense numbers half of approximately nothing is still nothing, but I am worried about how losing the Stealth will work. In the New World Order, it will be more important than ever to avoid extra aggro (and I even approve of that), but it seems like the tools that used to help do that (Steamy Mist/Shadow Fall/Group Invis) are having that stripped from them. I used Shadow Fall much more for the ability to take on one group of enemies at a time than the minor Def buff it provided. Now it seems like in combat, the Stealth part is going to be completely irrelevant until 10 seconds after the battle ends.
P.S. It's "lose" not "loose". I hate that.
A few comments on this.
I don't care for the defense reduction, since Stealth and Hover are the only defense my blaster has. I understand the changes to defense overall - but I would like to see something more along the lines of limiting defense stacking: if using Stealth (or other pool defense power) along with other defense powers apply lower limits - if its all you got, apply the higher limit. It was my impression that was the original purpose of the defensive pool powers: to give some defense to the defenseless. At least that's the impression I got from the original manual.
Does the same defense reduction logic also apply to Hover and other powers that have a defense bonus?
The other thing I really don't like is the strobe effect of dropping the stealth - its really annoying. I say document the "reduce-while-attacking" feature in the short/long power descriptions but as long as the power is on, leave the visual effects alone. Otherwise, in prolonged contact, you're likely to not remember that you have it on, draining your endurance.
Finally, I agree with the comments on keeping the "visibility on attack" to only the group you are attacking. While some of us know to use this to aid in pulling one group away from another, I suspect that quite a few players don't realize this benefit and are going to be really surprised when this goes live. Also, for large teams, I have afeeling that tactics like this are going to be important in the Issue 5 world. Besides, wasn't this the only reason Invisible Kid was in the Legion?
Mr Energon - confirmed altimaniac
Mr Energon
Confirmed altimaniac.
The opinion I have of stealth is that it is a defensive power. I agree that once you attack you should be seen by the enemies you're attacking, since obviously they know you are there. The problem is that I don't think everyone in the room should see you.
Part of the strategic use of stealth is to get into a position where you only aggro one group and thus are not destroyed by an entire room of baddies. For a blaster or other ranged toon this is okay, but this does not work for a melee player. If I'm a scrapper and use stealth to get close to a group before attacking I want to be able to only be attacked by that group. I was to take out groups one by one and not worry about the guys halfway across the room aggroing me and attacking. Right now, once I attack I might as well not have taken stealth at all.
Also, the general theory of all the power pool powers is that the first two are generally made for in combat use. Hover, Combat Jumping, Hasten, Teleport Foe, and the like. Stealth is the same way. Obviously you cannot attack while using Invisibility, but stealth is designed to be used in combat. Right now, it's combat effectivness is nil. It doesn't add anything to combat and just drains end.
My suggestion if the changes aren't to be rolled back completely is to just reduce the amount of stealth after you attack. That way you are still visible by the immediate group you are fighting, but you have less chance that the other groups will aggro you.
The way I perceive stealth during combat is kind of along the lines of you sneaking into a group, taking down one guy which alerts the group that there is an enemy, but because of your stealth skills you are able to hide amongst the confusion and prevent that group from alerting they're friends. You are obviously known to be there, but still able to somewhat remain unseen.
This thread is for you to provide feedback to the Devs on the above issue. You are allowed to post ONCE in this thread. Make it count! If you post more than one time - the extra posts will be removed.
If a dev responds this count will be reset.
Here's a basic explanation of how Stealth and Stealth suppression works:
Basic Stealth Powers (Pools, temp powers, and Powers not in a Defense set like Blaster Cloaking Device, Controller Illusion Invisibilities):
Toggles:
If you Attack, or are Hit - Critters see you. You loose half your defense buff (and your PvP stealth) for 10 seconds. Your translucency is reduced to indicate this change.
Clicks
If you Attack, or are Hit - All enemies will see you. You loose half your defense buff. Your translucency is reduced to indicate this change.
Primary Stealth Powers (Those in a defense set like Dark Armor/Cloak of Darkness, Dark Miasma/Shadow Fall, Storm Summoning/Steamy Mist, Warshade/Shadow Cloak)
Toggles:
If you Attack, or are Hit - Critters see you. (You loose your PvP stealth for 10 seconds). Your translucency is reduced to indicate this change. No Defense is Suppressed