[ QUOTE ]
Breaking LOS should return DEF_S to normal. Bosses and LTs. may know what to look for so there is no guarantee of Full DEF_S vs them.
Walking in water is a give-away for any stealth and should cancel DEF_S and detection avoidance.
Not all stealths are the same. Stealths confered by "clouds" should give +DEF_S only, not detection avoidance, since you don't know where the target is in the cloud, but you can see the cloud. Maybe minions are stupid enough fall for it ( "Sure is gettin' steamy in here!") and not realize what the cloud is but maybe not LTs and definately not Bosses or AV's. ( "That's not natural, It must be a Hero, you maroons!" )
[/ QUOTE ]
This is a brilliant idea--and judging by the mechanics of the game code, seems do-able. These suggests would be one way for Statesman to have his cake and eat it, too--he could keep the premise for the nerfs (and I'll give him the benefit of the doubt) being toward greater realism (although ten seconds?! sheesh) while us lowly peasant hero folk get to re-employ some strategy that follows some logic (breaking enemy line-of-sight restoring the stealth effect, for example) for the soloing squishies (such as myself for time-to-time).
Ultimately, though, the logic in this nerf is fatally-flawed, best summed up in the closing statement:
[ QUOTE ]
ps. You have no defense unless there is an attack.
[/ QUOTE ]
I did a double-take with that statement--but its poetry is spot-on. The best-case senario is that you get half-value for the I5-halved +DEF when you have stealth on while under unprovoked attack (meaning the hero didn't throw the first salvo)! Now those are some pretty small numbers.
BTW, why oh why hasn't some of the dev demi-gods thrown in a word or two by now on this topic in some sort of explanatory response (such as, perhaps you players have this one right)? The gamers are about to storm the castle over this (I've got my pitchfork and torch ready). A lot of these 'adjustments' (read: nerfs) are coming off as mean-spirited. What evil force (of players) has corrupted this game so much to warrant these radical changes?
[ QUOTE ]
Alternately, could you give us a new costume option. A T-Shirt available to all toons that existed before I5 goes live that says "I got nerf'd in I5 and I still play".
[/ QUOTE ]
I just got so worked up over this stealth issue that I had to throw in my two 53 level trainer enhancements:
Dearest devs, we, the *actual* citizens of Paragon City implore, nay, BEG you to re-examine your motivations for doing what you're doing to these power sets. In the name of Ice tanks and Martial Arts scrappers, bubble-defenders, Dark Miasma users, and all of the other overlooked and power-stunted sets everywhere--restore us to our former glory! The strength of the minions of evil grows as ours, the minions of good, weakens!
In all earnestness, though, I think I can speak (based on the day-to-day observations from within Paragon) for heroes everywhere when I say the we are sensing a disturbing trend. Is it because you're trying to iron-out the incongruencies between PvE, PvP, and CoV? SAY YES or NO! We, your patrons, who pay your bills and paychecks deserve an answer! We're big boys and girls--we can take the truth: "Well," says Statesman in my fantasy, "to be honest, we're smoothing over some play issues between the three games of the CoH universe and unfortunately, you're taking the brunt of it. However, we are actively and passionately aware of your concerns, such as STEALTH, to name one; and you, the precious players, are our greatest concern. It is true that we have been approaching our adjustments from a negative perspective. A subtle form of cyancism has tainted our effort--we take every word on these boards personally, at some level, because this project for us has been a labor-of-love.
"Therefore, we've re-examined our vision for CoH and decided to act positively--to built up every archetype, to focus on the player--in short, to take the *high road*.
"Soon you will be seeing the effects of our rejuvenated philosophy--no more AoE mob limitations of sixteen; instead, mob aggression (strength) will grow geometrically with mob size , called 'mob mentality'; thus, if you're a herder, you'll really work hard and EARN those kills. [See how you can at once end pharming and support the rest of us law-abiders?]
"It gives me, and all those behind-the-scenes at CoH great pleasure to allay your growing concerns and frustrations [and outright disgust] by officially stating that we are pro-heroes. We are pro-you."
"With New-Found Respect and Humility,
Yours in Paragon,
Statesman"
Whew. I like to think that heroes everywhere would collectively pass-out with glee over a statement like that.
[ QUOTE ]
I have a problem with the basic 'I attack and all critters in the mob see me immediately'. That's completely unrealistic.
For example... Cassano sneaks into a mob with SS/Stealth running. He hits build up/aim/nova sequence - is seen before nova goes off, and any and all survivors are turning to immediately attack him.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've got a better one for you; I'm a bad guy. I'm standing around. Suddenly, one of my buddies starts smacking the hell out of me. So me and the rest of my group? I've always thought it funny that the other bad guys never responded to a deceived villain in kind, but now they turn in unison to alpha ME. Makes deceive worse than useless...
Rich
Ok, I have a question about the stealth changes. I use Shadow Fall, and eventualy will have Cloak of Darkness. Do they work like I'm thinking? That being that only the badguy I attack and those next to him see through my stelth and I keep the defence bonus.
If so then why did they not just say it's unchanged. If attacking negates the stelth aspect completely, then why am I running Shadow Fall all the time? It doesn't offer mez protection, it's damage resistance doesn't come into play offten... OH YEAH, higher defence. Wait, until I pump three more slots into it I have the base defence. Was that cut too?
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
[ QUOTE ]
While I do think that 10 seconds is a tad too long, what really boggles me is the -def on some of the powers. Why have a def component on the power at all if it is just going to be reduced at the very moment you even need it? I mean, you don't need defense while stealthed because nothing is trying to attack you. The stealth is your defense. Then you get into a fight and your stealth drops taking your defenses with it right when their use actually comes into play? It makes no sense.
[/ QUOTE ]
Very good point.
I don't know why we keep posting WHEN THEY DONT LISTEN or respond.
If I wasn't mad enough, I have been playing my AR Blaster, for whom Cloaking (stealth sans movement penalities) is a mainstay.
PLEASE explain how if I defeat a mob, and then Super Speed to a new room, if I haven't waited 1o seconds, they GET TO SEE ME.
argghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
I understand that this is a long post, but to get the whole picture behind the point I'm trying to make, it should be read all the way through, so if you're interested in my opinion, please bear with me. I only have this one post Dev's... I'm making it count.
There are so many things that I find untenable about I-5, I don't know where to begin.
For the most part, I've learned to respec and work around most of the changes to reduce its impact on me. While I still enjoy playing my toons, the changes are not fun for the most part, and in many cases have had to sacrifice concept for the ability to function and survive. While I believe I see the direction you're going in with the changes you made, many of them were a little too much (the global defense and resist nerfs) and a few were outright unnescesary.
The changes to Stealth were one of them. Phase Shift in particular, but this is about Stealth in general, so I'll stay to that.
As it stands in I-5, it is not a viable power selection. A lot of Power Pools are slowly falling into that catgory with the nerfs, but none moreso than Stealth. In almost every instance I've seen it used, by the two blasters I have that possess it (one being a shadow creature by concept, and the other a spirit of the winds) as well as by friends of my main in the upper levels; I have yet to have found any tactical usage for it that couldn't be bettered or surpassed by other powers. At this point, the defense is so low, even unsupressed, that I feel hard pressed to slot it. The fact that the higher in the game you get, the more mobs seem immune to the stealth factor even before being attacked (with no way to slot/improve it's effectiveness in that way I might add) only adds to the growing uselessness of that power in this "vision". What's worse, some primary and secondary sets have them taking up valuable power selections that are now little better (if not as bad as) a Pool Power.
I'm not going to quote numbers at you, I'll leave that to better number crunchers than I to do. They don't matter to the general player anyway, as they don't know them. In your wisdom you have decided to leave most players out of the loop in that bit of understanding. I get the idea behind the "immersion" factor of not knowing the numbers, but if that's the goal, then you need to focus less on those numbers you toss at us, and more in the "feel" of it, which is what most players have to do.
Someone said that forum users only make up like 4% of the actual playerbase... but they're the only ones with ready access to the numbers...
With that said, only about 4% of the playerbase, give or take (let's be generous) an additional 10-20% passed on by word of mouth and SG friends/associates; even understand or know the hard numbers to make appropriate changes to their toons for survivability based on the new heavily reduced values. Based on the nerfs, if you don't know the numbers, there's a fine line between successful and debt-ridden with your build in I-5. SR Scrappers and Ice Tanks are among the more poignant examples there.
On the other hand, the play style you seem to have geared this game toward promotes concept over numbers, based on the limited access "casual" users have to those numbers. Until I started frequenting the forums (out of worry over all these changes I heard about from other players) I didn't know any "hard numbers"... still don't know a lot of them... and based my build off of what felt appropriate to my toon, and by asking more experienced/successful players what they did and how they slotted. I-4 was more "intuitive" in that you didn't have to slot "optimally" for a successful build. However, those who did crunch numbers could easily break the game.
So is it a game
1) based on "hard numbers" and optimal builds? Or..
2) based on feeling like a superhero as long as you apply a little common sense to your build, without having to know all the "hard numbers"?
Apparently, based on the changes you think bring "balance" to the game, you can't have it both ways. Either that, or something is getting lost in translation in the pursuit of that balance.
You have people saying that the defense supression makes sense, but the stealth nerf is right out. Likewise, you have people that are okay with the stealth nerf, but can't grasp the reson for the loss in defense. There's also some that can't understand the nerfing of either, and those that get the nerfing of both. Why?
Because of the way they percieve the power itself, and how it applies to their heroes.
With my shadow creature, stealth to him is a "natural" state, I never turn it off. He's a creature composed of shadow, so stealth for him means that he's hard to see no matter what, and his shadow state made him harder to hit. Neither defense or stealth nerfs make sense to that build.
My wind spirit on the other hand; the stealth nerf makes a degree of sense. As a wind creature, he's still visible to a degree, and when he attacks he's easier to sense (feel his cold presence, see the atmospheric disturbance from the buildup of his attacks) but he's still a wind spirit, and so should be less tangible (like the wind) thereby keeping his defense.
Even without story or concept driven reasons, the purpose behind taking the stealth pool serves two purposes.
1) Increased defense (duh!) especially for toons that have none of their own. Blasters especially so far as I've seen. Most don't want fighting, as they have to take at least one power (punch or kick) that they will almost never use for the benefit of Tough or Weave. Other than those, besides Hover or Combat Jump, supply the only defense available to them.
2) Stealth (another duh!) If they want to stealth missions to get through them faster or avoid combat, there's already an inherent nerf built into that part of it. They lose xp for the things they avoided fighting. That in and of itself is a fair trade in my book.
Now, looking at Stealth in I-5. Neither of these are really viable with the pool, so why take it?
The supposed "Pro's" and the changes to them:
1) You have a negligible amount of defense, which is decreased farther still if you attack, or worse, you're attacked unprovoked... so you don't even really have a choice of when you give up that marginal degree of defense (something that bothers me about travel suppression too- though I like still like that better than the -acc; but that's like saying I like solid crap vs diarrhea IMHO*).
2)You have stealth that, as you level, more and more enemies see through anyway, losing effectiveness in what you wanted it for as you progress. Worse now, like above, is mitigated to the point of uselessness if you attack, or when you're attacked by someone that can see through it anyway, making you visible to those that didn't see you to begin with (again even if you're attacked, removing a great deal of choice in when you decide to give up that advantage anyway).
The "con's" that have been around and haven't changed:
1) You're slower in most cases when using most Stealth powers. So, if you're spotted, you better just turn it off so you can get away faster from the aggro... and prevent further
2) End drain, which depending on the power is prohibitively expensive when taking any actions beyond movement. Granted with a few end reductions and the "assumption" that you get Stamina, can be negligible later on in the game (that being another point of contention with me- Stamina is one of those "must haves" for most builds).
Now explain why I would want Stealth again beyond it fitting my toons concept?
Having stealth is not an unfair advantage. It's a POWER. That's like saying that Tanks have an unfair advantage against the Controller with less hit points and no reistances. If you want to remove the things that define the power and it's usefulness, remove the power. Period. Don't cheat the players with the idea of having a power that logic says should do one thing, but doesn't deliver. If it's because you don't feel it's heroic or appropriate to not have a "stand up" fight, fine; but be aware at this point, you're imposing that view on others that may have different ideas about what's heroic or appropriate to them and their build. If it's only because you feel certain AT's that have it are "abusing" it's function for the added defense, don't make it available to them. Watering it down so that it's usless even to those that use it "as intended" is a disservice to them.
It eats end, slows my toon down, doesn't make me very stealthy (with no chance of making it better) and provides only a maginal defense; Both of which are squashed to the point of uslessness whether I decide to break stealth or not (by being attacked by an enemy that, by luck or design, saw through it).
Remember everyone, Stealth in this case is a "super power". It's not Solid Snake sneaking around with a box or disguise (there's a temp power for that in a freak story arc). It should be considered as such if it's to fit into the concept of a "power pool".
Otherwise, delete it as a power choice, and make it a skill when they become available (Fighting and possibly Fitness- though due to the usefulness of Fitness, I see it as a super power that accentuates powers you have- might fit into a similar category in that case).
Keep "super powers" super.
Now again, explain why beyond a toon concept at this point would I want Stealth?
*I understand that was probably uncalled for. I try to leave my saracasm and angst at the door, but I can't think of a way to illustrate my feelings for some of the things done that take the "immersion" factor away from me for the sake of expedience.
Edit: I stated that Fitness could fit into a "skill" category, but as useful as Health and Stamina are, I would still consider that a "super power." However, I also feel that those two powers should be automatically recieved at a certain level, like Rest is at 2nd. I'm willing to bet that most end costs and such are assigned taking Stamina into account in varying degrees... IMHO, Stamina, for example, should be an automatically recieved power at 20...
"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.
You are right...that post is way too long. I am not reading it so you can cry about stealth.
Short and simple, something a little more serious was done to Stealth.
I enter a mish with Stealth already activated, haven't encountered ANY villains, health at 100%. My scrapper, with no aggro powers, still gets seen by villains such as the Ritki, Freakshow, Family, Tsoo, CoT, and Devouring Earth at ranges where any hero gets seen by a villain.
Petitioned and still haven't even gotten a response yet.
[ QUOTE ]
You are right...that post is way too long. I am not reading it so you can cry about stealth.
[/ QUOTE ]
Then why are you reading this thread? It is after all about changes to stealth
From my testing and playing, it seems Stealth is more a liabilty and aggro generator. Its not simple suppression its aggrssion now.
My test was with Smoke grenade. A power that, when successfull on all targets, lowers perception and Acc to some degree. This power is still non aggro when used by itself.
Net effect is stealth for you and teamates. The bounus was with stealth running it made me nearly invis. This allowed my Eng/Dev blaster to "ghost" past unessisary encounters, or get into ideal positions for attacking.
NOW if im running stealth, a power that requires a higher perception value by mobs to detect me, and throw a Smoker, a power that lowers mobs given perception value.
INSTANT aggro and sometimes chain aggro of other mob groups.
How is it I have higher aggro useing safe range and two stealth powers vs, useing just one??? 
It seems Stealth and ANY power used is sending an aggro signal now. So im not just losing stealth and some DEF, im sending out an AOE taunt!
I have to say BROKEN ! FIX IT FIX IT FIX IT FIX IT FIX IT.
Ok so after a couple hundred responses asking for at least some reasoning behind this change.. still no response, even with I5 live for a week.
"dev response thread'???? There isn't a SINGLE dev response in this thread.
So, since there isn't a 'dev response', I guess we can treat this as a normal thread and post to the same thread w/o waiting for the fabled 'dev response'.
As such. I again ask WHY WAS THIS CHANGE MADE?
HOW was it game breaking or unbalancing to let stealthed characters get *1* free shot before being seen?
Keep in mind that once you made your shot, all the mobs you aggrod would STILL get their shot off on you, even if you moved out of range or out of sight. YOU STILL GOT RETALIATION!
So..*W*H*Y*??
Further, how does it make any sense that a sniper gets shot at for simply *RAISING* his weapon - long before actually *FIRING* the weapon? A sniper like that would not last long in the business...
So, tell me again the point of stealth now?
Xan