I'm just wondering if the usefulness of superior invisiblity is being decreased (less def, supressing def and stealth), are its endurance costs being decreased as well? Before issue 4 it was basically a worthless power since illusion also has group invisibility. Although it was an endurance pig the defense and ability to attack made its cost worthwhile. Is superior invisibility going to become worthless again?
Scenario: I am in a cave mission with my blaster, sneaking up on 3 foes with stealth + superspeed, then I attack. However there are a few foes a distance left/right/above/below/behind.
- In I3, these other foes would not see me, and I only had to deal with those I attacked.
- After superspeed supression: they would only see me if they were reasonably close.
- In I5, they will see me and destroy me the second I attack my target.
The main effect is that I now have to be superduper carefull, looking in every direction very carefully before I attack. This is slow and boring compared to I3, but not harder or a fun challenge.
In teams it means that more pulling will have to be used, since shadowfall etc dont help prevent additional groups from attacking. Pulling all the time gets dull.
Suppressing defence is not suprising considering all other defence nerfs, but PLEASE dont supress the stealth.
Question: Is grant invisibity, group invis etc supressed too?
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P.S. It's "lose" not "loose". I hate that.
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You're not the only one...
and I don't get the power pool defense nerfs either. IF the power pool defenses are such a big deal because of stacking them with each other (CJ + Stealth + Weave + Hasten, e.g.) then just code the pool defense powers so they toggle each other off. Meaning, you can't have CJ and Stealth active at the same time. If you want to have the manueverabilty of CJ, then you can't have the defense/stealth of stealth, or the better defense of Weave, and vice versa.
As for the stealth suppress... I understand it suppressing for for the MOB you attack (and its immediate group, but not for everything.)
If nothing else, the supression needs to kick in AFTER the attack is completed. Stealthing into a group of mobs to use the flash power was a viable tactic for illusion controllers. Now they see you and shoot as soona s you begin the animation. Superior invisbility needs to also be adjusted.
I dont like these changes one bit overall. 5% defense was hardly breaking the game, and getting rid of this, coupled with movement supression, takes away the dynamic flow of combat. We may as well just stand toe to toe trading blows.
I'm not really so worried about these changes to Stealth powers since it does make sense in my mind. What I WOULD like to see is a form of 'first strike' ability granted as a replacement(since it also makes sense). How about a similar To Hit buff(enhanceable or not) added that is suppressed just like the Defense Buff? It seems to makes sense that if the baddies can't see you they can't dodge your attack as easily.
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While I do think that 10 seconds is a tad too long, what really boggles me is the -def on some of the powers. Why have a def component on the power at all if it is just going to be reduced at the very moment you even need it? I mean, you don't need defense while stealthed because nothing is trying to attack you. The stealth is your defense. Then you get into a fight and your stealth drops taking your defenses with it right when their use actually comes into play? It makes no sense.
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I agree with this. When you need the defense the most is when you are seen so why surpress that? I don't agree with any type of surpression at all though. I don't know who came up with the idea but it was horrible. I guess it was punishment for all those against the -acc with travel powers. Oh well, maybe one day one of the devs will come up with a good solution to this mess but surpression is definitely not even close to being worth anything at all.
I'm probably wrong, but it seems to me that the Def portion of these powers was a reflection of the difficulty of completely locating the user, even when you know they are there. When an attack is used (or whatever) the stealthy person's presence is made known, but you still are not certain where they are. The Def was reflecting that uncertaintity, and was small, but reasonable, as a result.
The way you lay things out here, you are effectively halving that Def, and thus that uncertaintity, for most of the powers in the only situation where they made sense in the first place - when the stealth component was compromised. That seems to be an unecessary additional step. If you want the Def reflecting the difficulty of telling exactly where the stealthy person is to be reduced, just reduce it. Supression is, it seems to me, only adding complexity where it is not needed, here.
Personally, I also agree with the general feeling that reducing stealth commponents is reducing play options. Regardless of "reality", I'd leave them active, to encourage multiple approaches to situations. But that is another, higher-level, matter.
- Caligari
Herein lies the illogic of suppression in general. First travel powers and now stealth and its defense are negated at the exact time that you need them most. It's a bad idea on any number of levels. It was often debated in the blaster forums whether stealth was worth taking for it's defense. Now it definitely has no appeal. My travel power doesn't work in battle, and now I have pool powers that are only of use when I'm travelling. I feel like the pool power changes of I5 are just herding me into taking nothing but powers from my primary and secondary sets. Why bother with others if they have no real benefit? I'll certainly never take Stealth in it's proposed I5 form. Not to sound too DOOM-ish, but won't this make cookie-cutter builds all the more popular?
If these changes took place only in the arena, I might understand. But to have them in the game at large...I'm just sad to see all the potential variety in our builds sucked out of the game.
I've said it before, I'll say it again: Do something -- Do ANYTHING, but get rid of suppression. It's the single worst concept introduced into the game.
My MAIN beef with this change is specifically that Blaster Cloaking Device is no better than Stealth of the pool power.
It can be argued that the pool power's higher endurance drain is balanced by the fact that you can invest to get Phase Shift.
I'm okay with the stealth suppression for 10 seconds, but losing HALF my defense in Cloaking Device? I'm not going to threaten to quit over it or anything silly like that, but it'll take some creative slotting to overcome this 
I still contend that a defense bonus that only applies outside of combat is of no practical value.
I think a much simpler and more straightforward solution is to put the defense bonus at it's "suppressed" value, and leave it there. Much easier for everyone involved, and much less confusing to explain.
Synchrotron, level 50 Radiation/Radiation Defender
Fighting crime on Champion since 2004
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It makes sense your seen if you attacked while stealthed. A good amount of the time in movies and heck, maybe real life someday If you attack while stealthed, your enemy knows where you are. Stealth is not PERFECTLY invisible. Its meant to where you can stand close and initiate an attack or 2 before they get a chance to fireback 
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But that's not how it works anymore, that is how it USED to work. Now, if you initiate or get hit by an attack, stealth goes away and everyone in the entire room can see you and this happens before the attack actually goes off . 
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
add me to the multitude who thinks this is stupid
1) the defence for the power is there to signify you being harder than normal to hit when you are seen, it makes no sense that that is altered when you are seen as that is what it represents to begin with
2) being seen as soon as you start to attack etc is ridiculous
3) being seen by everyone you arent attack is ridiculous as well
but then since this and all changes come from the same mind that thinks a defensive power with a 0.5% base is good (wet ice is a confirmed 0.5% defence base by statesman)
the fact that the devs think things like that are good shows how clueless and unsuitable they are to make design desicions for the game.
In short we need new devs or the devs need to seriously get in touch with the game and radically change their 'vision' before any remainign shreds of credibility are eroded out by the laughter of the players that the devs think 0.5% defence is meaningful
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Basic Stealth Powers (Pools, temp powers, and Powers not in a Defense set like Blaster Cloaking Device, Controller Illusion Invisibilities)
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Do what now? I was under the impression that Illusion Control was supposed to have the best Stealth in the game. This would appear to no longer be the case. I'm not really sure why Superior and Group Invisibility, two linchpin powers of a set whose primary CC is based on misdirection, are classed into "basic Stealth powers." SI and GI were built to be the premier Stealth powers; why are they being treated equivalently to things like the Stealth pool?
Furthermore, the stealth suppression that exists now further reduces the crowd control capabilities of Illusion and forces it even further into the "kinda sorta like a Blaster with Defender powers" role Controllers seem destined for in I5. This leaves IC with only Phantom Army and Phantasm for crowd control, you I hope realize? And in what way does it make any sense for Cloak of Darkness or Steamy Mist to offer superior invisibility to a set that has a focus on invisibility powers?
The goal you have declared you are working towards, Statesman, is that one spawn becomes a challenge, or at the very least requires your full attention to deal with.
If you achieve that goal, then two spawns becomes a very difficult challenge, and three or more spawns will be very deadly. And there are villains where this is already true for my heroes (best example, malta spawns with sappers). If you simultaneously make multiple spawns deadly while removing any way to deal with them individually, that's just wrong.
Stealth has three uses in the current game:
(1) Getting past villains to get to glowies. The one use that could be described as reward without risk, and the use that is least affected by this nerf. It does make villains who can see through stealth change the whole basis...If I'm trying to get through a level and have to pass through a room with a Nemesis sniper, currently the sniper will hit me and the group the sniper is with will aggro, but I can run past them into the next room and keep going. Under this ill-conceived nerf, not only will everyone in the room see me once the sniper shoots at me, but those in the next room I run into will see me. Do you mean to unbalance the villain groups so that those with one that sees through stealth are so much better off?
(2) The second use is to get yourself positioned for your attack, getting the first attack in. This still has some functionality, though again if there's a sniper across the room your position will be revealed to the Fake Nemesis you're near. The bigger effect is that, on live, you get your attack off first, and the villains respond, because you are seen by the group you are attacking when the attack goes off. On test, you become seen as the attack is started, and because NPCs react at the speed of light you get attacked. This is yet another nerf to person-based aoe powers...if you run up to the villains while invisible and use flash to hold them, even if you're able to hold all the villains there, you will be dead because they get to shoot first.
(3) The third use of stealth is to limit aggro. As I said above, with invisibility powers, when you attack, you are seen by everyone in the group of the villain you attack. You are not able to invisibly take out your opponents one by one, this is not risk free. It's managing risk, a risk that you've declared you want to increase to be all I can handle.
Stealth is NOT a power levelling tool. Indeed, given all the effort taken in I5 to kill herding, Stealth is an anti-herding. It is a slower but more cautious playstyle.
You've spoken about how you want challenge, meaning you need strategy. With these changes to stealth, you've removed most of the strategic value of it.
I strongly disagree with many of the changes in I5, but can live with most of them. This change is one I do not believe I can live with.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
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I understand that the Defense on Stealth has to be cut in order to match the changes made to SR and Ice Armor.
The suppression, though, is out of line. The ability to cut agro with Stealth made up for a lot of tactics the game can't adequately model that would accomplish the same end. Whether or not all the Defense suppresses, if the power suppresses in combat it's functionally useless. It's not worth spending a power choice to avoid agro while travellling...easier to just kill what gets in your way usually.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
Make the Illusion Primary Powers Group Invisibility a Basic Sealth Power, since it is a click; and make Superior Invisibility a Primary Stealth Power.
Hemogoblin
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If you Attack, or are Hit - Critters see you.
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If this is the case, that is every foe can see you, not just the group you are aggroed with, then I agree with the others about the endurance cost. The endurance cost should be lessen during the revealed/suppressed period or reduced as a whole for the powers.
Stealth in particular because that seems to be a physical technique, ie you are sneaking around. This is in contrast to Cloaking Device where you have a gadget running. Once battle begins, voluntarily or not, then you are not and probably can't maintain sneaking anymore. For Stealth, I would suggest that along with the visibility suppression, that it's self slow should be suppressed too.
Still, I disagree that once aggroed EVERY foe should be able to see you. The Cloaking Device is still running. The invisibility "spell" is still on. The mists and miasmas are still flowing. I would rather it be that upon engagement, you have a CHANCE to be seen by foes in adjacent spawn groups. In addition, there should be a slight chance for engaged foes to lose sight of you and thus lose aggro.
Teams are the number one killer of soloists.
I agree with others that I do not understand the universal removal of your stealth and the suppression of the defense.
What is the point of a higher defense value at all? It literally serves no valuable purpose. Any time defense comes into play you are guaranteed in all but the most unusual of circumstances to be under attack by an opponent that knows you are present. This means you gain the benefit of the higher defense only until:
*) You are hit once (where did this come from???)
*) You use any power that affects a foe in any way.
This combination of scenarios completely eliminates the worth of the higher defense value. In effect the only combat value of these powers is the lower defense value.
Either (pure) stealth powers should consistently provide some defense bonus or they should provide none - with an appropriate reduction in endurance cost. Having them provide a defense bonus that only matters when nothing can see you anyway makes no sense.
Finally, I don't see much value for stealth powers at all if it's supressed for all purposes when you attack. In missions the ability to stave off dealing with a second mass of mobs is practically the only use of stealth powers. This change will relegate them almost completely to travel powers (at which the pool power versions somewhat suck, since they slow foot speed.)
As usual it would be nice to understand the motivation for the change. Most of us seem to understand the %DEF reduction but not the suppression and the 1/2 DEF.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I'm fine with the 10-second stealth suppression on attacks. It makes sense from a balance perspective and the general concept that when you take aggressive action that the enemy can spot you by your actions (flashy powers).
Do anchored debuff toggles cause perma-suppression of stealth? If so, this is a real bummer for the group-support defender who lays down toggles and then hides while his team cleans up. If he can't benefit from stealth, then he may as well just stand there and blast away like everyone else. It just removes tactical options.
The defense half-suppression seems off somehow... I guess I'd always assumed that being unseen is effectively 100% defense (not seen, not attacked), and that the defense bonus was there to represent that even when the bad guys get an idea of your location, it's still hard for them to aim (not seen, but located and attacked with difficulty).
With this notion, it seems like there is no reason to have a full defense and half defense. What attacks does the full defense stop? AoEs targeted at a buddy beside you? Well, the mob isn't aiming at you anyway, so I'm not sure why defense matters here. Snipers who can see you despite stealth? Well, they can actually see you, so why do they have a harder time aiming?
I guess I just don't know of a meanigful case where the mobs cannot see you, yet can attack you and use your full defense bonus.
It seems like a lot of trouble for very little effect...
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(Sigh) Getting tired of MMORPG's undergoing drastic change becasue of PvP issues.
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This takes me back to the days before the game went live.
There was a huge outcry from some of the posters because they learned that there would be no PvP upon release. Dozens of threads were started; petitions were signed; threats were made.... you get the idea.
There was an equally large outcry from posters who, because of their past experiences with other MMOs, knew that if PvP were implemented in the game along with PvE, then there would be -hell- to pay when it came to balancing.
Sadly, it seems that we were right.
To the other poster who asked, "Why now?".
Well, this is Issue 5. What was introduced in Issue 4?
COH gameplay is 95% combat-oriented. This is a fighting game. It was bad enough when you arbitrarily took the travel powers out of combat (a change that -still- annoys me greatly) but now you're taking combat powers out of combat. Nonsensical. There is little point to even taking (much less using) a power like Stealth when it does not, in fact, provide any Stealth when you actually have a use for it. It goes from being a limited niche power with a steep cost (movement slow, end cost) to being just a power with a steep cost. It's what, the blinkie-sneaking power now? Yeah, sure, sign me up for that.
Most of the I5 changes are understandable, players did need toning down, but this one can't really be seen as anything except removing tactical variety from the game for no apparent reason. Stealthiness was very far from an uber ability.
I can somewhat understand being spotted when we fire (as it used to be; being seen but NOT being any easier to hit). Although I always thought there should be a few seconds for them to find where it came from, ESPECIALLY if attacked from behind.
Players sometimes need several seconds to spot where an attack came from [most especially when getting sniped from beyond visibility limits], but its always appeared as though no matter the hiding and angle, all villains come with a Skul-brand counter-battery-fire radar/sensor suite and one hell of a fire-control computer to go with it.
They instantly turn around and open fire with unhindered accuracy. At least the substantial defense buff inherent to the power added some realism to this by making it harder for them to actually hit.
These changes don't make much sense, and not just because it supresses the only relatively slot-worthy defense of blasters. If I'm hidden by cover, AND cloaked or hidden by mist, etc, and thus harder to see, they should have a harder time spotting me in the first place. Of course, even once they know where its coming from, it SHOULD be substantially harder [depending on how stealthy you are] for them to damage you. Especially in the dark, or when only partially in LoS. The supression kinda ruins that effect. On top of this, OTHER groups, ones that may have been close but weren't paying attention and weren't attacked, can now suddenly spot us because we get stealth-effect supressed for 10 seconds.
I fail to see how this can encourage people to take stealth (popular because they made traveling around and especially teaming less dangerous for squishies, as many layouts result in enemies being too close to pull one-group at a time) or team. The occasional potshot from getting too close immediately halves your defense, something many 'naw, stop whining' people were claiming we at least had left.
This of course hurts blasters the most, as stealth [and the other reduced pool defenses] were the only reliable (though meager) defenses we had... most of us were keeping these in mind (and well slotted) when explaining that blaster survivability was too low.
In other words, those that don't care about being spotted in the first place (non-squishies) won't be bothered much about the change, but once again the blow lands on the squishier types.
If being hit decloaks us, and attacking decloaks us, then I fail to see why you don't just drop their defense ratings permanently: Battle is the only time we need the defense, and half of it goes away.
*SUGGESTIONS:*
Add in a response timer to villains struck while stealthed [and raise nearby enemies not in the same group to alert, but do NOT supress the cloaking/stealthiness versus those groups, unless 2-3 shots are fired in this way (a 'hey, did you hear something' response, rather than everyone wasting the blaster)]. The timer would represent the several seconds of trying to figure out where the shots came from, which would be far more realistic.
Alternatively, I trust you'll be lowering minion base accuracy to 35% to compensate for the blow to blasters the defense changes brought on?
Or, better yet, if its because of the high-survival sets that you were trying to bring down by dropping everyone's defenses, why not just make it that it only supresses for purposes of MELEE? OR just give the meleers the lower % values for these powers, instead of the squishies that have nothing else to combine them with.
Sniping should also be stealthier to remain useful with these changes and allow better pulling. these guys manage to do the impossible time and time again. These are *minions* we're talking about. In most comics and games you'd take out more than half of them before they even figured out they were being sniped at. The Lt might run for cover and figure out where its from, but that would take him time; and being villains, he'd probably not call attention to himself by ordering the underlings to hit the deck!)
Wouldn't it make more sense for them to do like some of those Freakshow in brickstown and take cover or try to revive their colleague?
Some out-of-nowhere shot from some cloaked guy hidden on a roof took out their buddy, and not only are they not worried about him, they know exactly where it came from despite not even having been expecting combat at all?
I can understand wanting to bring the AT's in line with eachother, but removing one of the few alternatives squishies had to "bumrush with 4 lucks" isn't one of them. Please, add MORE choice, don't remove.
May I ask a question? (I don't have a character with the right set up to test this)
If you are travelling through a zone/mission, using stealth to avoid aggroing the baddies (a fairly common usage for the powers), and a sniper or other high perception badguy spots you and takes a potshot, for the next 10 seconds all badguys you run/jump/fly in range of will see you and aggro?
That doesn't sound like a particularly fun change, to me.
Always remember, we were Heroes.
It's a good thing for the Predator that he wasn't a CoH hero.
Suppressing defense is just dumb. Yeah, everyone knew the predator was there, everyone even knew his general direction, location, size, etc. What they could not do was get an easy bead on him to fire back... why? well, duh... he was steathed... thus, although his presence became known, his stealth continued to provide him some defense as it made his "kill zone" very difficult to target.
CoH Stealth should work the same way. You attack, you lose the benefit of being unnoticed. But the fact that you are still physically stealthed (toggle running) should mean that the defensive portion to the power remains.
And here I thought invisibility and phase shift were designed for moving through enemy territories unobserved or unassailable...
Someone said it above... What is the point of having defense added to the power if that defense is going to only work when no one is firing at you? Or ceases to work the moment you are fired upon or attack. That's just stupid.
Part of a long list of stupid I5 changes actually.
My blaster, the only character I have left worth playing after I5 goes live, only has stealth for defense (no SS, no CJ, no tough, no weave, no etc.) ... just stealth.
Anyways... whatever.
I am a blaster who likes to PvP. I feel that stealth is the ONLY reliable defense for blasters. Not because of the defense %, but because of the -perception effects.
Considering the fact that many powersets have +perception abilities, and anyone who wishes to can purchase the Tactics ability from the leadership pool, I think that stealth suppression is on its face unfair. Add to that the fact that anyone can choose to purchase and carry Insight inspirations and it really becomes ridiculous.
As a blaster, I am forced to carry breakfree inspirations into the arena because of the proliferation of status effects. By the same reasoning, I don't consider it to be unfair to force other characters to carry insights into the arena.
I have never relied on stealth for defense %. in fact, it would not bother me in the least if you removed ALL the +defense from the power, but for the love of all that is holy remove the suppression of the -perception aspect.
While were on the topic of stealth, lets talk about the paradigm of primary power>secondary power>pool power.
The difference between stealth (lvl 6) and cloaking device (lvl 20) is negligable. In the case of Invisibity, (lvl14) the -perception is in fact better than cloaking device. The jump in effectiveness to Sup Invis is HUGE! The point is, even with the devices secondary, I feel it neccesary to purchase the concealment pool for invisibility because cloaking device just isnt good enough.
Based on the precedent set by Superior Invisibility for illusion controllers I believe that Cloaking Device should offer the same -perception as Invisibilty (which is 50 feet less than Sup Invis and 50 feet more than stealth) and retain the ability to attack. If this means the endurance costs are increased so be it. Id rather slot the power i have in my secondary for end red and recharge than have to buy a redundant power pool as i do now.
Thankyou
PS. This is off topic but since I have your ear, please add +perception to targeting drone. Devices blasters have toggle dropping powers they really can't use reliably. Throw us a bone! I would happily give up the toggle drop abiltiy of my mines in exchange for +perception in my targeting drone.