My suggestions. I may faint if they are implemented, must less dev-read, in any form.
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Concealment/Stealth: Self -SPEED, +DEF; Foes -DETECTION. Shuts off after user attacks or clicks a flashy/door. Recharge: Long. (Toggle)
<Purpose: Let a hero creep around slowly but in relative safety.>
Concealment/Invis Other: Ranged Ally +DEF; Foes -DETECTION. Shuts off after ally attacks. Recharge: Short. (Click)
<Purpose: Grant a non-stealthy ally the ability to get somewhere quietly.>
Concealment/Invisibility: Self Special (User cannot attack); Foe Special (Cannot detect nor target user). Recharge: Medium. (Toggle)
<Purpose: Allow a hero to freely move around outside of combat.>
Concealment/Phase Shift: Self Special (Cannot affect nor be affected by non-Phase Shifted targets, including flashies/doors. Does not clip with flashies, doors, NPCs, or other non-terrain objects.) Recharge: Medium. (Toggle)
<Purpose: As Invisibility, but in total exclusion from the "real world." Cannot open doors, but can pass through them. Cannot click flashies. Can interact with other phased targets.>
Devices/Cloaking Device: as Concealment/Invisibility but with +DEF (Toggle)
<Purpose: Allow a hero to freely move around outside of combat with increased safety.>
Devices/Smoke Grenade: Targeted AoE. Foe -DETECTION, +CONFUSE while in its area. Recharge: Medium. (Click)
<Purpose: To keep foes in a particular area off balance and unable to easily target the hero. A hero can choose to spend extra time blanketing a larger area with multiple smoke grenades.>
Fire Manipulation/Smoke: Ranged AoE. Foe -ACC, -DETECTION, +CONFUSE. Recharge: Medium. (Click)
<Purpose: Decrease a hostile group's ability to successfully attack friendlies.>
Illusion/Group Invisibility: as Invis Other, but PBAoE (Click)
<Purpose: As Invis Other, used on a group of allies rather than just one.>
Illusion/Superior Invisibility: Self +DEF, Foe -DETECTION. Does not shut off due to interactions with objects or targets. Recharge: Short. (Toggle)
<Purpose: A defensive power.>
now that the defenses of stealth powers have been decreased in I5 by about 50% will there also be a corresponding reduction of thier end cost ?
My two inf:
Why bother halving the defense of stealth powers since it only comes in to play after you have been seen and/or attacked. You get the benefit of the full defense buff for the first attack and maybe the second. Snipers and Rikti Drones don't miss much from my experience so this makes suppressing the defense buff pointless. Just nerf it to half at all times and be done with it.
This looks suspiciously like yet another nerf brought to us by PvP. In my experience, current mob AI locks on to stealthed heroes if the mob A) has a high enough perception, B) has been attacked, or C) was in the same area/spawn as a mob that has met either condition in A or B. (YMMV since range is a consideration) Since full stealth does not affect mob AI once the hero has been seen it looks like this change is so that a human opponent can spot someone attacking them, i.e. a PvE nerf from PvP concerns.
As with the other nerfs in I5, I doubt this nerf will change much based on the feedback in this thread. At best I expect we'll get overall lower defense from stealth powers but at least they won't get surpressed.
I hope this is the last of the nerfs for a long time. I'm finding the game less and less fun as each one of these nerfs come along. Insta-deaths and one-shots are not fun and my controller keeps getting pushed in that direction with each successive nerf.
Mr Slowburn - 50 fire/kin troller
Cosmic - 50 grav/storm troller
Cyberprowl - 50 ma/dark scrapper
Mi-graine - 50 emp/psi defender
Alberta Beef - 50 fire/ice tank
Mythtery - 41 ill/rad troller
Gargantua - 39 ws
Kotor - 38 db/wp scrapper
Fungal - 50 plant/psi dom
Snarky - 38 thug/dark MM
What's the point in having a defense power that supresses when you attack or are hit when the defense is so low. 3% defense is practically worthless in the short term. It only makes a difference over a long period of time. Chances are you're going to get hit the first time someone tries unless you already have a great defense and then you don't care. If you're going to make it so that defense suppresses when hit, you need to make it so that it will significantly improve your chance of avoiding the first hit. If you insist on keeping defense suppresion you should make it so that it is something like (rough numbers) 90% unsuppressed, 5% suppressed. That way the unsuppressed defense is actually useful. Otherwise it's useless. Just decide what you want the combat defense to be and leave it that way all the time. That way players won't worry about something that will never help them.
Also the differentiation between "defensive" sets and "non-defensive" sets seems quite artificial. As a devices blaster, I use my secondary to defend myself. I mean that's what it's for, right? Most blasters use their secondary as a defense unless they're the strange creature known as a "blapper." And the Controller Illusion powers should be the premiere invisibility powers.
Stealth should not suppress before an attack is finished. What does waving your arms around in preparation for an attack do to alert your foes? I mean you're invisible (or almost). If you can't code to make it suppress after the attack, please add a 1-2 second delay into suppression.
10 seconds is too long. Make stealth suppression end when travel power suppression does. Since foes don't "un-agro" when stealth suppression ends, having a long suppression doesn't make sense.
Others make good points about having multiple tactics available. Most players won't care about stealth suppresion because they don't use it tactically. But I would think (and I've heard you quoted as saying) that having multiple tactics available for players to use is a good thing. Stealth pulling and the alpha strike are good tactics, not exploits. Not everyone uses them and not everyone that usess them uses them all the time. By naming them exploits and closing the "loop holes" you cut down on player's tactical choices.
It's also worth considering that the graphical and UI limitations of the game really limit the "real" use of tactics, but this is a role playing game. While it's easy to say that a foe knows right where you are because you're right there pummeling on him even though you're stealthed. This is only because the game engine can't show real stealth combat. Batman would not just walk up to some one "stealthed" and hit them. He'd hide in the shadows, hit, disappear, and then strke again from the shadows. Just because the game engine can't show that, doesn't mean that the gameplay should be limited to what "logically" follows based on what it can show.
Added: The difference between the use of stealth in tactics and someting like large-scale herding is that large-scale herding is indicitive that at least one player has very little risk of ever being defeated and because it limits the inputs of of other players on a team (small scale herding is fine because it's essentially using the tank as bait for a trap). Stealth as used in tactics, on the other hand, while making battle less risky (as all good tactics do), is not on the exploitive level. It also is used mainly in soloing or only on the small scale in teams, so it doesn't take the fun out of things for your teammates like large-scale herding can.
removed
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I still contend that a defense bonus that only applies outside of combat is of no practical value.
I think a much simpler and more straightforward solution is to put the defense bonus at it's "suppressed" value, and leave it there. Much easier for everyone involved, and much less confusing to explain.
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Seconded. Why have a defense that drops by half value at the only time when it'd be relevant to have it? The stealth suppression makes a limited amount of sense.
Side note, before I forget to mention it again: I see the suppression on movement powers to be a little immersion-breaking; I'd rather see some way of adding suppression to certain attacks- for example, Air Superiority- in order to "slap down" fast-moving jousters.
TargetLad!
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I can understand why the Defense bonus is supressed, but the stealth component does not make sense(at least in PvE).
The game already causes whatever you attack to agro to you. The main benefit of stealth is to control how much agro you get.
It would be one thing if stealth had a lower endurance cost and didnt have a -speed component, but right now it gives very little benefit except to augment the stealth component of superspeed while traveling.
If you decide to keep the changes to stealth, would you at least consider alowing invisibility to be used during combat?
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quoted for emphasis.
How and why stealth supresses is more or less flexible in regards to how you interpret the power, but I'd use the latest batman movie as example of how I see it: he attacks the mobs sneaky and one by one while the other mill around and shoot haphazardly in the shadows. This would be translated in the game as the way it used to work.
Furtermore, supressing stealth so groups that never agro'ed on you (which can happen if you are sniped) is silly, it's like you are such an amateur that you can't even remain under the cover of "darkness" while being attacked.
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This thread is for you to provide feedback to the Devs on the above issue. You are allowed to post ONCE in this thread. Make it count! If you post more than one time - the extra posts will be removed.
If a dev responds this count will be reset.
Here's a basic explanation of how Stealth and Stealth suppression works:
Basic Stealth Powers (Pools, temp powers, and Powers not in a Defense set like Blaster Cloaking Device, Controller Illusion Invisibilities):
Toggles:
If you Attack, or are Hit - Critters see you. You loose half your defense buff (and your PvP stealth) for 10 seconds. Your translucency is reduced to indicate this change.
Clicks
If you Attack, or are Hit - All enemies will see you. You loose half your defense buff. Your translucency is reduced to indicate this change.
Primary Stealth Powers (Those in a defense set like Dark Armor/Cloak of Darkness, Dark Miasma/Shadow Fall, Storm Summoning/Steamy Mist, Warshade/Shadow Cloak)
Toggles:
If you Attack, or are Hit - Critters see you. (You loose your PvP stealth for 10 seconds). Your translucency is reduced to indicate this change. No Defense is Suppressed
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Before these changes, stealth and stealth like powers had three uses.
1. As a defense bonus. Essentially nullified as part of the overall defense reduction. In the best case for these stealth powers, once a person attacks, a small number is divided. I would not take and slot a power for this use under these changes.
2. As a first stike capability and for general sneaking about. Unchanged under the proposed I5 update.
3. As a means of reducing aggro from nearby groups while fighting one group. If I understand the changes correctly, this use has been eliminated as well, since the stealth component is now supressed upon attack. In essence, there are no slient kills in this game.
Of these uses, the second two were decidedly tactical, allowing one to position and to manage aggro.
Circeus has alread commented on the (lack of) usefulness of half of a low defense bonus (page 1 of this thread).
For my 2 influence, it is the stealth suppression that hurts the most. I like soloing or even teaming with this ability. It allows me to engage fewer opponents, and cull the enemy numbers. I find this use to be both fun and tactical and I would prefer that this tool not be removed from my toolbox.
Cheers
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Why isn't Superior Invisibility a Primary Stealth Power?
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Hear, hear. Warshades have better invisibility than Illusionists? Dark dudes have better invisibility than Illusionists? Freakin Storm Defenders have better invisibility than Illusionists? 
Right off the bat, I play a Rad/Rad with stealth. I use it to make sure I don't get aggro of too many mobs, but the +DEF is a nice bonus. Not really a big deal to me.
First off, my biggest problem is the suppression for ten seconds. Granted, being a Rad, I won't notice it with RI and EF going, but ten seconds is a very long time. At the very least, the time should be cut in half.
Second, I can kinda understand what is being said in the changes. I'd like a little bit of clarification.
Third, could you please define "Critters." Not quite sure what the difference is between critters and "All Enemies."
Fourth, why lose half of the defense buff? Or, since we're on the subject, have it there in the first place?
Fifth, does the stealth drop happen exclusively in PvP, or does it apply to PvE, too? Whether or not it applies to PvE, would it be reasonable to have the stealth drop completely after a second attack within a fifteen-second time frame?
Sixth, I noticed that "Basic Stealth Powers" have a penalty associated with them with the use of a click. Does the same apply to the "Primary Stealth Powers?" And if not, why is that?
LLastlly, and as a reallly, reallly, reallly minor thing (unllike other posters here, it seems), might want to try reading your post alloud before you post it. (Might hellp with the proofreading, and such :P)
As horse says, "No sir, I don't like it."
Anybody know what prompted this nerf?
My thoughts on the matter. In no particular order. YMMV ( I just hope I don't contradict myself. 
)
+DEF should be categorized by what confers it. +DEF from mobility ( Hover, acrobatics, combat jumping, etc. ) is not equal to +DEF from stealth. Although they both = damage avoidance.
Mobility +DEF DOES protect vs AOE; Stealth +DEF does not
Maybe a new buff called AGL is needed to distinguish these +DEF types from each other. Or sub categorize DEF into DEF/AGL (DEF_A) ( DEF/AGL = mobility DEF ) and DEF/Stealth ( DEF_S ), ( if it already isn't.)
Stealth = The Predator.
Low DEF_S. Low detection avoidance.
You kinda know where he is so you can attack him but with difficulty. Distance plays a factor. Closer = less DEF_S. Striking a blur with a hammer is a sure thing, no DEF_S. DEF_A still applies. Movement lowers DEF_S.
Invisibility = The Shadow.
High HIGH DEF_S, High detection avoidance.
Unless you are smart enough to pick up the signs of his presence ( sounds, sound pressure changes, breathing, footsteps, seeing foot prints, ) you can't even touch (target)him. Him hitting you, gives away his position, but only until he moves out of range. ( I guess the Shadow needed to become visible to punch someone, so that is a give-away ) Fast, loud movement lowers DEF_S. Slow, careful movement has no effect on DEF_S.
Breaking LOS should return DEF_S to normal. Bosses and LTs. may know what to look for so there is no guarantee of Full DEF_S vs them.
Walking in water is a give-away for any stealth and should cancel DEF_S and detection avoidance.
Not all stealths are the same. Stealths confered by "clouds" should give +DEF_S only, not detection avoidance, since you don't know where the target is in the cloud, but you can see the cloud. Maybe minions are stupid enough fall for it ( "Sure is gettin' steamy in here!") and not realize what the cloud is but maybe not LTs and definately not Bosses or AV's. ( "That's not natural, It must be a Hero, you maroons!" )
BTW, Statesman asked for input, so zzzzzip-it.
ps. You have no defense unless there is an attack. 
I truly do not feel that the loss of the defense that stealth provides is a good idea. While it is true that a hero can get a decent amount of defense by taking various defensive powers, please keep in mind that by doing so they are losing power selections of other types, and therefore tends to become more of a roleplaying reason (though I do know some may want to min/max, but all of my characters have different powers all based on how I roleplay them). I feel that Stealth's defense should not decrease because you attack, and if it does, it should be for a very short time-perhaps like the 4 seconds mentioned by another at the most. To help show why I feel this way (and I only feel it should keep its defenses because of the basis of the game, it is a Super Hero one and in comics, those that attack while concealed or using stealth are rarely spotted unless they want to, or make a bad mistake.
The following is my view on Stealth and other defensive powers in other pools to help illustrate why I believe it should keep its defense. I am most assuredly not saying that these other defense powers should lose anything at all, simply showing a correlation:
Stealth: I really feel that making stealth lose more of its defense is uncalled for. If the other powers decrease, then lower it likewise, but please think of this point of view:
--I view stealth as something like Batman, lunging out of the shadows, striking a villain that who may know he's there, isn't quite as sure where to shoot or punch and so Bats is safe. He attacks, and then is again in the shadows. Another example would be Nightcrawler, teleporting from the shadows or from somewhere hard to see, attacking and then gone again, with the bad guys only able to aim in the direction of where they hear the "bamf" sound happen after they've been hit. Stealth will, to me, lose its entire usefulness if it loses all defensive bonuses because you attack (which so far seems to be fixed, but I still disagree with it losing some defense when you attack).
My blaster uses it as her main defense, though she has several; and I consider her to be semi-invisible (like the Predator from the movies and that comic too) as she steps slightly out of reality to stay safe while attacking. Other characters I've seen, from Ninja-type or assassin type characters to demonic or vampiric based stealth users would have explanations that wouldn't allow for the defense granted by stealth to leave them because they attack (shadows darken on the victim; the attack is too fast for them to know where they were hit from, etc.) It just seems to be a large factor to a power set that could very well be made worthless with its singular offensively used power made so less effective when many that take the powers need all the defense they can get. (again, I'm glad they only decreased it instead of removing its benefit while attacking, but does it really need to be decreased more?). You get to your enemy with invisibility, and then stealthfully attack him/her, and as reinforcements arrive you phase into the shadows and retreat...just an example of story and play-based use.
My second thought for this is: If the reason for losing stealth's defenses altogether is because you've attacked and now can be seen, then what of the other powers? Shouldn't you lose your defense from Combat Jumping when there's not enough room to effectively jump, or when you don't even jump at all by pressing the spacebar? Hasten has the most powerful reason in this game to lose it's defense bonus as its primary use for most characters is to recharge their abilities faster, but if you're moving faster, shouldn't you be harder to hit still? Leadership wouldn't help you much unless you are in a team that has you as the team leader, and has been together long enough to trust your orders. Basically what I am trying to say is that what you may end up doing to Stealth could just as easily apply to every other defense-based power in the game. I don't really feel it should happen to any of them, aside from whatever general adjustment you make.
To me, Combat Jumping works because even in a small area, the person bounces from object to object to try and give them that defensive edge (insert your favorite bounce-person from comic here) as they use their agility to do so even in very small areas. The true Leader in comics shouts his orders with a quick reason and people benefit from it. "I've fought these before! Quickly, cover me and that blaster and use electricity!" Hover also would only really apply any bonus if you were constantly moving around (according to a tactical book on helicopter piloting; "a hovering helicopter can make a perfect high-level attack platform, but is also a sitting duck") but in the comics, our hero and even our villains glide to the side while in the air to avoid that attack. Even Hasten has its use as a defense to those that play the game for fun as they think of their character moving with that extra speed they've trained for to avoid punches, or simply dodges a hail of gunfire as the bullets look slow to them since they can run and move at super speeds.
As for losing your actual difficulty to draw aggro...well I could see how perhaps your range could be effected; as snipers shoot from ranges while camoflauged for a reason, so perhaps it could allow more aggro when attacking with it than it did before and be only safe from larger aggro at distances.
Just some things to keep in mind, and I hope that they help.
I am confused....
so basically if you use the Invisibility power from the stealth pool....and you get hit....then the power basically becomes suppressed...not only no more defense but also no more Invisbility....and that also means you cant turn it on to run.
So in this case since you cannot attack with it on...it drains more energy then even flight....what exactly is the purpose to the Invisibility Toggle Power out of the Stealth pool?
Also...Steamy Mist is also basically turned of....supressed if you get hit as well or attack?
So basically since it no longer will give resistance or defenses becasue that gets supressed and it no longer will give stealth becasue that gets supressed...
Then i cannot use whirlwind with it...becasue that will auto supress me...i cant use blizzard because that supresses me...
My own buff and debuff powers basically will supress each other.
So basically I guess what I am asking is what powers can my Storm/Psychic defender Kitty use?
Right now she gets clobered so much its not funny...and with the next issue....sounds like it will be worse.
I always felt her powers never worked very well...but thanks to this post i know if they did work...they definately dont work now.
oh well...I admit the toggle invisibility was never that good...heck couldnt even hide you from snipers...but I just thought wow maybe someday it would actually work...
Guess i was wrong.
Having seen a few posts on the subject of Stealth, I hesitantly mention that this game is not Champions nor is it GURPS Supers. Powers are not silly putty here. Powers are more set and defined than in the game systems Champions and GURPS Supers.
City of Heroes is closer to Villains and Vigilantes as classically played in the way powers are designed, which is to say that each power functions as a pre-described utility. Power source is flexible, but power function is pretty much set.
Two examples of the pre-defined power system used by City of Heroes are enhancements and availability of powers as prescribed by security level. In few other superhero games will a single power be closed to beginning players if it's not closed by GM fiat. In few other superhero games are the method used to increase powers so rigidly defined as in City of Heroes, where training is the weakest power enhancement, and (for example) devices are always more powerful than training, and (for example) technique is the most powerful.
As such, Stealth is defined as a power -- not its source, but its function. Until City of Heroes opens up player customised power function definition to any extent (not likely in the near future), it's probable that Stealth will remain with certain considerations defined by the game designers: that stealth isn't a power of a character who is naturally hard to see at all times (and as would follow, all non-epic AT are equally easy to see).
While we might pretend otherwise in roleplaying situations, as to the basic game function in tactical mission mode, all powers are as Cryptic defines. One cannot play a non-epic character who is always out of sync with the real, and hence always ghostly with little effect on the real world but much effect on the ghostly world. This is because Cryptic's approach is similar to the approach of Villains and Vigilantes: pre-defined powers for a simpler game, easier to balance, easier to play in some situations.
However, this does not forbid the idea that in some future time, Cryptic might allow a secondary class: specialisation. Characters *might* be able to someday specialise in a single pool set power, which would open up potential to improve the function of each power set in surprising ways (but not widely variant ways). This would make some interesting speedster characters and interesting hand-to-hand specialists.
I am positive that Origin will someday recieve an issue focus of its own, to make it more central to character functionality, and enhancements might even have very timid side-effects -- but probably not in the near future. And certainly not anything earth-shattering in its implications. (There might be "unpredictable" or "wild" enhancements that are powerful but generate a specific effect from a list of effects that range from the cosmetic to the cursed -- or blessed)
My suggestion for Stealth? Well, it works just fine in tandem with Super Speed in missions. However, in the one Arena game I played, my opponent could see me even though I was speeding with stealth on, before I attacked.
If Stealth is to work at all in PvP as more than just a defense, it should a) make the stealthed character translucent, but with visible name and such, b) simply disallow targeting the stealthed character but allow knowing where that character is, c) allow targeting and increased visibility of a stealthed character once they attack or are hit by an area effect for negative status change or damage (with consideration to whether or not resistance to that particular negative status change would permit stealth to remain).
I think that if the suppressed Defense value remains the same, the unsuppressed defense value for some of the powers should be increased. To double or triple the pre-I5 value. This would still make the powers useful for stealth in areas where things with advanced perception can still see you. If it actually requires a hit, not just an attack, to suppress the power, an increase in the defence only cuts down on the times when a sniper or other enemy with increased perception will cause the stealth power to be suppressed.
Examples: Under the posted system, it seems like if a player with Cloaking Device was shot by a sniper in Founder's Falls, thier stealth would be suppressed and they would be spotted by any mob close enough to agro them. I think the defense of the player should be much higher while stealthed to reduce the frequency that this happens.
If that isn't how the system works, it needs to be clarified. And the defense should still be increased to at least pre-I5 levels on powers that get suppressed.
I'm sorry.
I believe that your entire group has gone suppression happy.
Travel Powers - Suppressed during battle.
Stealth - Suppressed during battle.
What's next? Attacks suppressed during battles? (I know, don't give them any ideas.)
This has got to be among the worst ideas to come from the devs. Suppression, in any form, breaks the flow of the game.
Playing my /dev blaster on test, it seemed that the stealth component of cloaking device was less effective. Mobs seemed to see and attack me from farther out than before, even when I don't attack. I don't know if this is real or just my imagination. Anyone else notice this?
As for the changes mentioned, cloaking device was pretty much my only available defense, now that hasten doesn't have a +def component. (Actually, I have hover, too, but it's too slow and inconvenient to use most of the time). it already had one of the lower defense values compared to other defensive powers, and is already being reduced along with all other defenses. I really don't see the need to nerf it even more, though I can see how one could justify either nerfing or leaving it as is, based on "realism".
Mainly, though, I want to use it to avoid being seen and hopefully limit the aggro that my squishy blaster [censored] will take, and even to sneak past some bad guys when I have to.
Please do not suppress the stealth component of stealth-type powers when attacking. (I don't care about defense.) This change makes mission layouts, which players can do nothing to alter, far too important to the success of a specific individual or team against various threats.
I've tried this on test, and I simply have to be too careful when attacking with my blaster -- and she's a nice, controlly, single-target, tactics- and trap-oriented ice/ice, not some AoE madwoman. But she now has to constantly check out every nook and cranny and check the range carefully before throwing her first blast so as not to prompt instant retaliation from some fairly distant but still aggroable foes. The pace of the game is slowed horribly, even if the higher XP may not make advancement any slower. I actually find I'm more effective not running Stealth at all so I don't operate under the illusion that it will reduce aggro. Which means it's kinda a valueless power. The only thing I'd use it for now would be helping to walk around tight low-visibility caves without getting surprise slaughtered, or for flying low to the ground so I could look at scenery without worrying about getting shot. And Super Speed is now simply better at doing both. It lets me escape quickly if I accidentally aggro a mob, and it doesn't slow me down when I fly with it on.
SITUATION: Running Stealth, I enter a Council cave. Critters to the immediate right of the door, critters on a nearby balcony to the left, critters behind them intermittently spread out. Before I first enter the room, I don't spot the critters to my immediate right, since I don't walk right up to the edge of the door and mouse-wheel-click peek around the corner. (If I had to do this every single time I entered a room, Id get pretty freaking frustrated.)
ON LIVE: I walk in and aggro some critters from the group by the door. One probably hits me. I either run like hell or back away and take down the single group as best I can. The other groups don't notice me.
ON TEST: I aggro a critter who probably hits me once. Everyone by the door and on the balcony now sees me and opens fire. Knockdown puts me on my butt and I stand a good chance of dropping from this one mistake. This may not be a huge XP penalty any more, but it is Not Fun. And assuming it would possibly make the difference, I can't just drop the nearby group with Defiance since I don't have instant AoEs. Let's not even talk about what happens if one of the critters is a vampire.
Assume I escape on test somehow, but can't drop the whole group by the door while doing so. Now what? I am now left with the one defense that blasters REALLY have: not range, but cover. And I can't control cover. I'd better hope the cave allows me an angle on one group or the other so I can pull just one of them, or I'm taking on the door and balcony groups together. And all I have is hope to make that happen.
I think everyone here knows of maps that make breaking up groups without stealth a nightmare. Think of the infamous large multilevel cave room that CoT or Devouring Earth like to use -- the last room in Numina's task force. There is no room I know of that people would rather skip than this. And now, one mistake while stealthing one's way through it could easily spell not just an unwanted tough fight, but instant mass aggro from multiple directions and a trip to the hospital. This stealth change makes mission layouts all-important for individuals or teams that can't handle multiple groups at once.
Isn't there some other way to solve the alpha strike issue? Maybe, since all the toggle defenses are being reduced anyway, make those big powers you're most concerned with drop all or some toggles the moment animation begins? Or is there some other reason for this change? Please, let me know the logic and I'll be happy to accept or debate it. But if the answer is, "we want to make soloing more challenging," I would answer that this change does indeed increase the number of stupid mistakes players can make. It does not make combat more tactically challenging -- it just makes it slower-paced, with less potential variety (like sneaking into position to make your first attack), and more frustrating, since I cannot control much about what I'm going to aggro any more. What I aggro I can prevent depends on how I use my cover. And I don't get to place cover.
I really, really don't want to just have to have multiple tanks and/or defenders on every team, take on everything at once, rely purely on the weight of a teams buffs and debuffs, and forget about fighting smart. And I really don't want people who've enjoyed the kind of smart play that I have to get fed up and leave because we're totally at the mercy of spawn setups and hard-to-see mobs. As stated by others in this thread, Sniper, Drone and Watcher placement makes these problems even worse.
I'm staying regardless. I love this game because I love the people with whom I play it, and the stories we've told in a great and interesting gameworld. But this specific change would really disrupt the playstyle I enjoy the most, force me to limp my way through solo missions, and annoy my friends, many of whom are stealth-granting defenders whose play style complements mine. I dont want them to leave or stop playing the characters weve worked so long to build together. Please allow Stealth, Defender stealth powers, and the combat Invisibilities to continue to provide their aggro reduction even while attacking.
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Please do not suppress the stealth component of stealth-type powers when attacking. (I don't care about defense.) This change makes mission layouts, which players can do nothing to alter, far too important to the success of a specific individual or team against various threats.
Or is there some other reason for this change? Please, let me know the logic and I'll be happy to accept or debate it.
It does not make combat more tactically challenging -- it just makes it slower-paced, with less potential variety (like sneaking into position to make your first attack),
I really, really don't want to just have to have multiple tanks and/or defenders on every team, take on everything at once, rely purely on the weight of a teams buffs and debuffs, and forget about fighting smart.
I'm staying regardless. I love this game because I love the people with whom I play it, and the stories we've told in a great and interesting gameworld. Please allow Stealth, Defender stealth powers, and the combat Invisibilities to continue to provide their aggro reduction even while attacking.
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Eloquent statement! I don't play blasters, but I play controllers, scrappers and defenders. I almost never sneak through missions for the prize and I never play PvP. But the idea of aggroing everyone in a room with one hit introduces a significant reduction in the element of strategy in this game, and I would see that as a shame.
I'd like to know more about what the issue is that needs addressing with this power. And I'd like to know why selecting stealth would make any sense when
1) travel speed remained slow,
2) Endurance drain remained significant,
3) defense is halved right when I'd actually need it,
4) When I start my attack the mobs get to first strike me, even though I initiated the attack, and
5) if I attack all stealthiness in terms of aggroing nearby mobs is lost.
Why would anyone in their right mind select this power?
Let me add my voice to the chorus.
I don't like the stealth power changes. They make no sense. If the defense bonus is going to suppress the moment you get attacked then why have it at all? Just reduce it to the level it's going to be suppressed to since that's where it's going to be when it matters. As far as the actual stealth goes I like it the way it is on live. I don't see why it needs to change. Like everyone else has said...you want people to use more strategy yet you're taking away our options. Leave stealth the way it is.
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Toggles:
If you Attack, or are Hit - Critters see you. You loose half your defense buff (and your PvP stealth) for 10 seconds. Your translucency is reduced to indicate this change.
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So it works fine until you need it then it gets cut in half? Seems pretty lame to me.
And here's a basic explaination of why that's [censored] stupid.
You see,being stealthy is more than just sneaking around. It's about knowing how to make yourself imperceptable under any condictions. Let's take one of the more famous stealth fighters currently used by most militaries: the sniper.
A sniper's job is a combination of marksmenship and stealth. A sniper who can't fight from concealment is a dead sniper and ultimatly useless in a fight. As such,once a sniper fires,it isn't a good idea to stand up and shout "Here I am!" which is how you seem to want stealth to work.
Let me give you a great example of one the best snipers there ever was. He crawled for 3 days across a field,moving only when the wind blowed,moving very,very carefully until he was in position. He then waited for his target,an enemy general,and then fired at him and *only* him. The general died in one shot and do you know what the sniper did? If you said "He got up and ran".you have no concept of how stealth fighting works and you shouldn't say anything more in this thread.
He stayed down. Why? Because he made sure he was well hidden before he attacked. And then he crawled back for 3 days and they never saw him,even though they were looking for him. He was that good. So for those of you who say stupid [censored] like "How can you attack and not be seen?",you're [censored] stupid and don't know how to fight from the shadows. As such,don't tell me how Stealth should work. Shut up.
As for instances in popular media,how many times have we seen someone grab some poor slob and pull him into the darkness or another room,all without his buddies even realizing he was under attack,and disposing of said slob? How many times has James Bond grabbed someone,beat him up,and taken his uniform as a disguise?
Now,since I'm not allowed to slip up behind someone and slit their throat in the game,insuring his buddies don't know I'm there,I accepted that my target would be allowed to see me once I attacked as a crude means of balancing the game. However,in the name of stealthy combat,letting *everyone* see you means there's no reason to use Stealth in combat,which,I'm sure,is what you want.
It's also only fair that enemies who attack while invisible be decloaked in a similar manner. If we have to leave ourselves open to attack,so should they. It's unfair you tell us "this is how it's supposed to work",but the AI enemies,who should be following the same rules and don't have the excuse of "using their powers in a way you didn't intend" don't have to do the same.
I'm recently gotten World of Warcraft. While they,like you,don't allow you to fight while stealthed,they do offer opinions for the stealthy Rogue to make up for it. For example,Garrot,Sap,and Backstab. All are fine options and all give you some means to rip someone a new one. They also allow me to buy guns,yet it doesn't "unbalence the class" or "make Hunters useless". It just lets me take a parting shot at any runners or get a good opening shot which is WHAT I WANTED IT FOR!
To sum up,the "this is too powerful" mentality is what's slowly killing this game. The constant fear of having an AT "phased out" and the on going witch hunts for "overpowered builds" is making the game basically unplayable. I'm sick of this and I'm sick of you,which is why I'm cutting my account. I'm going to play a fun game that rewards efforts by players to make better characters. Sure,I can't fly or run around in colored undies,but my character isn't a denutted weenie who can't hold his own in a fight.
[censored] you.
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Durring my last respec I had a choice to make - due to my SG's requirements - I had to have Recall Friend, so that sucked up one of my Power Pools. Due to my end needs (I'm an MC/Force Fields) - I had to have Health Pool ... obviously, I had to have Hasten, which left me with a choice... Stealth, which I've relied on since I could get it... or Flight, which themewise fit my toon.
As a result from 35 on ... I've had to learn to live without stealth - which when it comes to Soloing ... was difficult but not impossible. In fact, I'd say I've become a far better controller because I don't have stealth.
I disagree with the changes to stealth - but by the same token, I don't see them as the end of the world. As someone who's learned to live without it completely there's a lot of mistaken impressions IMHO as to the degree it's really necessary that you have it in battle during attacks.
Like I said, I don't agree with the Stealth nerf, and I'm frankly not sure what the necessity of it was or why it was even determined it was needed. But I also don't think it's the worst thing in the world.