November

Posi... man. What can I say?

This was something that floored me. Like a kick to the gut.

So sorry for you and the rest of the devs. You guys have been so amazing over the years. I can't see somewhere picking you up. The vision, the talent, the skill... COH to me is what a MMO was supposed to be. I have yet to find any other MMO which creates the special chemistry between players that you guys created with this.

It's an amazing achievement.

The game will be missed. But it is my most fereverent hope that you - and the devs will not. That you will continue on to other games and places we can enjoy your works from.

Player created content?

Unlike many I really don't think that what you're asking for is too much. But there'd be a need to scale it back a bit perhaps.

As anyone who's played this game to 50 even once knows - there's a lot of content (map) reuse. Selecting a map that's already in existence ... isn't a problem.

Placement of items/villians on that map - that comes into some problems. We're not talking a base here. We're talking a level of interaction. So - you'd probably be looking setting the expected level of the mission, and placement of the map A/V. From there you'd have to deal with default mobs and roaming mobs appropriately.

Could it be done? Sure ... the question - which is always the big question - does the cost justify it. In the words of the infamous film producer Rodger Corman, when asked why he always made low budget films instead of higher quality flicks ... "Would it sell one more ticket (copy of the game) if I do that?".

I'm not sure the answer of that is yes. To allow us these capabilities I'd guess a lot of the game would need to be re-written from the bottom up. And the cost on that would be prohibitive.

Now -- and since we know Jack IS listening here... here's a clue... When the time comes for CoH to be redone from bottom to top - a version 2.0 if you will - this should make it on the list of gotta have features. Being the first MMO to allow player customizable (essentially "mashup") content would bury WoW and anything out there hands down.

Just my 2 cents.

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Thanks for the update, but would the cape crash cause non cape wearers to crash? I stopped wearing one and was crashing quite a bit.


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Most likely, the cape crash is caused by the client program trying to render the capes and getting hung up on the geometry between the cape and the character. From what I've seen, it shouldn't matter if you're the cape wearer or someone else is. The client (I believe) doesn't see any difference between your toon and other people's toons, other than the fact that your camera angle is always relative to your own character. So a cape crash can be caused by you wearing a cape, or any other on-screen character wearing one.

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Wait, wait, let me get clear on this-so what you're saying is, even if I'm playing solo on a non-caped toon, that when I 'see' a toon with a cape on my screen, I'm potentially at risk for a client crash (as my comp tries to cope with the goofy geometry stuff)?

If that's so, it might explain the sheer randomness of my crashing a bit more...jumping through a zone, there's a caped hero in my LOS, BAM, crash. Moving through a mish, there's a caped/trenched/winged MOB, BAM, crash. Might make the whole thing make a bit more sense, then.

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You've described what appears to be the case. For those of us that never crash, around capes or not, I certainly don't have an explanation of why we don't.

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The crash would be dependant on the type of cape / trench coat, your proximity to them and your graphics settings. If I'm right you may be experiencing this around some of the areas with water (sewers, the dam) as well.

Capes, Trenchcoats, etc. are not what they appear to be as far as a computer is concerned. We all know that the game does not actually draw round objects or flapping capes/clothing - but that they're polygons. Sharp edged flat objects of irregular and regular sizes. In some cases these polygons have polygons all the way down to infintesimal dot sized polygons - and in order to give us the illusion of movement (as with capes and water) they move these polygons back and forth, changing their shape and color to reflect the conditions and the environment. Well - anything with a flowing or flexible polygon shape with sufficient detail to appear to be flowing or fluid, supple, transparent and moving - that needs to have a repeated pattern of polygons - and it needs to be calculated many many times and this process repeated and they which have locations that are updated regularly ... yeah - the math required to do that could easily cause a memory leak or looping. A bad class file that's passing variable that isn't cleaning it up or rounding error or - several things... and you got a mound of head ache to try to locate it in the code. To make matters worse - this in all liklihood is NOT in the code.

The code could be just fine - but how it talks to your graphics card may have changed. (Driver updates - you name it.) And did I mention that the implmentation engines (code called by the code) may be dependant on differing versions of drivers for you hadware?

This isn't an easy problem to solve more than likely it's in part your graphics card, and in part probably the implmentation of it in the code.

We've known for a long time the game really pushes the graphics envelop for people. Not all graphics cards are going to be using the latest drivers. And even the latest drivers are not always going to be the best drivers, nor will everyone have them. On top of that - the people who create the engines for things like environmental variables (capes, water, trees, sky) may have a bug in their code - but the devs can't locate it because it's in a library they can't access.

We always assume that NCSoft and Cryptic write all the code themselves - but some of it is actually industry standard, or top of the line gfx/sfx routines for things like the Trees and other environment variables.

If this is a situation where the code - what they've written - is correct - and the implementation (the graphics engine and routines are made by someone else) are suffiiciently cutting edge ...Then I hate to say it may be a while before this can be resolved because the card makers will need to update their drivers or the engine makers may need to release a patch to Cryptic. Neither of which will be something the devs can do anything about except listen to us complain. None of these issues btw - would have come up in testing. Only way to detect them properly would have been to have the servers under a real load ' real world scenario.

I tend to think this may be the case - as I really can't see anyone looking at bugs this annoying and saying, "Yeah, let's release this pig - I want to get 300 complaints in my email every day I can't do anything about so I can die of an ulcer at an early age and learn to hate my job.".

Let's make sure the devs know about it - but always remember they have their limitations on what they can do just like you and I do in our jobs. Makes their job a lot easier if they know we appreciate the long hours they go through for each of these bugs.

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This means that, if we wanted to, we could have an Invention that gave out XP.

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Wow. Please don't do that.

- Protea

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No... do... but once it's built - it will only work if you sit next to it alone and untouched while it works... and it only generates 1 pt every 35 minutes. Go ahead - TRY and abuse it.

Oooh - OOOH - even better!! You get a 15 extra XP per mission - but only if you team with a full team and run back to back missions.

Actually the invention I really want - is the one that lets me log on and no matter what server I'm on - there's enough people to team with at my level... oh - wait that's called the "SEARCH" button... now if we can just get more people playing to make it work.

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I'm extremely disappointed that an image of Statesman would be used in such a way. I know that we designed City of Heroes to appeal to "children of all ages." My proudest accomplishment with the game is that many parents (including my brother) play with their children...sharing, I hope, the same joy for the comic book world that I've had ever since I was 8. I cannot express the shock that I felt seeing that a character created by Cryptic would be used in the same sentence as Columbine.

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I can see the shock of it - and agree for the most part with the majority of the comments here. But I also as a parent chose COH as a game I could play with my son, and know what kind of games my kids have. That's responsible parenting.

By the same token - I see games where to score points you're shooting cops, burning people on the street, blowing away people because they don't believe in the same religion as you ... and I have to ask myself as a parent why the heck there's not something being done to limit this kind of thing beyond the efforts I put in.

I won't go so far as to say "If you play those evil games you'll be a drug dealing satanic axe murderer!!". But lets face it - it sure as heck does not shock me if you become one. You sleep with dogs - you have a tendency to wake up with fleas, and sufficient exposure to thinking that sort of thing is cool will affect your outlook.

Responsible adults know what their kids are up to - they don't control them - but they help guide them. Responsible game makers - need to decide if the message they're sending out is one they endorse, or one they plan on making money off of.

I have had some serious issues with CoH's emphasis on CoV for so many issues because I'm really not thrilled with the idea of my kid playing a villian. Let's face it - as corny as it is - CoV is supposed to be about being a successful villain.

And we can all say, "Anyone who can't tell the difference between reality and a game is nuts." and you'll be right. But then - how many sane people kill? How many sane people deal drugs, shoot cops, blow up schools? I'm hoping the answer to that question is zero.

Is it necessary to enjoy a game - to kill a cop? Is it necessary to enjoy a game - to kill someone who did absolutely nothing - they're just there? Well - some say yes, it increases the believablity of the game - allows you to get into the role - allows you to pretend. And that's all it is - it's pretending. Okay I can see that.

Is it necessary to enjoy a game to see somethings blood splatter all over a wall? To see a skull rip open with a chain saw? Why is it better in a game - acceptable in a game - but not in real life? The answer (I'm hoping) is you know you wouldn't ever do that but it's fun to pretend. And the violence - makes it more believable. Makes it more fun.

Gotcha. It's more fun - if you pretend to blow the head off something.

Now - I want you to think about what you would do - if the guy sitting next to you at McDonalds or where ever ... started explaining how chainsaws and blood and blowing the head off cops - was okay - so long as you're only pretending.
Let me know how that works out for you.

We cannot keep claiming that because it's all "pretending" and therefore it's okay. Adults - Parents have to take responsiblity at home - Game Designers have to take responsibility in the market. It's our world - we decide how it's supposed to be shaped.

States and CoH here has been seriously slandered in this clip. CoH and even - regardless of it's design - CoV - do a good job of pushing a positive set of life values. They're one of the very very few games that manages to do that, and Cryptic should seriously look into legal action because it does give people the wrong impression.

Even still - you'd impress even me more if my kids could pay for a Hero expansion that means they don't have to buy CoV to get into SG Bases.

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Great guide!

I have a question but I'm not sure how to articulate it, so here goes. What are the standard video styles used to capture specific emotions or feelings for the demo I want to create. For example,

I want scene A to evoke a lonliness feel, so I do film school 101 standard sequence X. I want scene D to evoke a panic feel, so I do film school 101 standard sequence Y. I want scene C to evoke sad feel, so I do film school 101 standard sequence Z, etc.

Director's use these standard filming "devices" all the time in movies I think.

Maybe there is a website with an index of Emotion storyboards, something like:

* Lonliness - Single person. Close view. Zoom out slowly while turning.
* Panic - Quick zoom directly on face. Quick cut to person A. Quick cut to person B. Quck cut back to me.
* Buildup - blah, then blah, then blah.
* Mysterious intro - this, then this, then that.

I hope my question makes sense. Maybe my question is too complicated for a website and I need to go to film school, lol.

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As a former film student - I'd give you one bit of advice... three times.

Story Board - Story Board - Story Board.

Get a stack of paper - draw squares on it - and draw it out just like a cartoon to get the look you want.

You mentioned several "stereotyped" (and frankly overdone) visual motifs for various emotional states.

But the fact is - to really make something work well you need to consider what you're doing and when you're doing it in your story.

If it's a quasi-rock video, well the bit with the close up and fly-out effect might work. But frankly I'd be more concerned as to what builds up to that shot.

Here's an example:

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One: Open on Scene of Hero walking - head down - along the street.
Two: Hero stops at base of statue ... looks up.
Three: Slow pan up base of statue to sunlight cresting over top of statue - from the flare of the light we see a set of wings beating flying out of the light at high speed..
Four: Hero at base of statue turning and following running after ... as the winged flying hero zooms out of site... Our Hero running futily after them... tripping and falling...
Five: Close Up on Hero With Determined Look...
Six: Hero Stands ... begins powering up...
Seven: Close Up on Hero... pull back as power explodes from them... and they shoot up into the sky.
Eight: As they fly up - behind them - they are now at the height of the statue behind them and the light flares off of them like the sun...

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In this - sure the shots tell a story but there's already some kind of a story there. Man on street sees hero - wants to be hero - and becomes one. Story-board it out - even if it's stick figures and very simple script like that. The example above has very few camera directions.

Best advice in film school they give you is when writing a story - to visualize how you would see the story and then write down those camera directions... "Close Up On Face" "Camera Pulls Back and we see...". Literally write it up exactly as you see it in your minds eye. If you see only the blinking eye of someone staring - then "Extreme Close Up On XXX's EYE IN ANGER - FX - SEE REFLECTION OF GLOWING FIGURE MOVE ACROSS PUPIL OF EYE".

There's no sterotypical formula for expressing an emotion. Tell a story first - worry about camera angles later. True - close up shots are personal and provoke intensity. Long Shots are usually place holders or to show desolation - distance. But placement of characters - cool camera angles and FX don't give you a story, and even your best music videos at least tell some kind of story.

Don't limit yourself to the limitations of the DEMO program here either. A bit of photoshop - and careful editing and you can create that effect (the one of a glowing figure passing across just the close up eye). I've seen some really amazing videos done just that way around here.

Tell a story first. Know your story - then worry about how you have to shoot it. You'll come up with the angles and the tech if you need to.

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I didn't reread the transcript, though I do remember the interview distinctly...but here's my take on bases:

They give players their own property...not exactly new ground for MMP's...however, they do offer an unprecedented level of customization.

Clearly, that customization, as well as the several gameplay benefits that the base provides hasn't been perceived to be worth the cost (i.e. Prestige/time played)...hence, Posi and several others (including myself) have taken a spin at making bases more accessible at an earlier stage.

It isn't the popularity of bases so much as the fact that our programming & art team did a phenomenal job of allowing players to generate their own lairs. Maybe not enough players have experienced this content to comment on it, though hopefully Posi's changes will help.

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And yet... we still have no Coffee makers for our bases.

What's a hardworking hero got to do around here to get a simple cup of mud at the end of a long day?? I ask you.

I hate to say it but ... the whole 1 HP in the hospital thing is EXACTLY what this game needs.

1) Yeah - you do have to wait to heal up. Good idea. I've seen so many PVPers hit the hospital and jump right back into the fight.

This is the BIG LEAGUES people. It's where you get owned or your reputation is made. It's where if you really want to take down that other team you really really have to work for it.

Meaning yeah - you're going to have to find a band of heroes and be smarter, luckier or just flat out Better than the other guy.

2) The Delay Kills need to be fixed - that's dumb. I'll give you that - but it's undoubtedly a bug. As for debt... at level 50 if you haven't hit the debt cap you're not playing your 50 nearly enough. What's it gonna do? Double your time to the next level?? Okay so the lower levels have to watch themselves - cry me a river. You're in a PvP Zone for 50s... you want to play with the big dogs - you need to play like a big dog.

Sorry if I don't seem sympathetic to the cries of "this is unfair" and "that's over powered" but it's gotten to the point where this games not just nerfed the players they nerfed the content ... there was a time when goin to the hollows was terrifying. You had debt at level 5 and you had to bust your rump to get rid ot it... and running across a monster in one of the zones was something you did not want to do without a crowd. The other day I and another 50 took down Palladin - and frankly I think I could have handled it solo. That's wrong.

There was a time when you got the ClockKing AV mission - and you were Toast on the Alpha-strike - you brought someone along as a sacraficial lamb - and the fight was one you put in your books.

Last time I fought him - his alpha was a joke. They've dumbed the game down for people who like to say it's impossible at this or that level of difficulty - then when they get up to 50 say there's no decent content.

The content is there - if people would stop asking to have it nerfed to hell and back. This is the end game. This is it. Let's not make it easy for anyone. Make it a right of passage - something to be proud of to say you did it.

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Sure it might help - but it's hardly necessary - and in general gets in the way of enjoying the scenery if you have to stop and monkey with the mechanics every 10 miles to make sure it's in top performance. If for some weird reason - they change the road on you - or the car suddenly isn't able to out run that sporty new job ... you're spending waaay too much time mechanics - and not enough on enjoying the drive.

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No, what gets in the way of that Sunday drive is taking the car in for service and after getting it back, finding your buckets seats have been replaced with a bench seat. The reason? "Your car was never meant to have bucket seats." Still driveable? yeah, but certainly not as much fun.

Or even more applicable.. "Your car has been equiped with new tires that only allow you to inflate them halfway. Because you were never meant to get 30 mpg, or go faster than 50 mph"


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True enough - ED did make things more difficult to understand our powers. I won't argue that - or even the need to do some serious number crunching by the fan base when a new nerf hits.

But I'll be open here - would anyone here actually trust published numbers at this point? I don't think there's a set of numbers the devs have given us - that aren't picked apart clean and improved on by the fan numbers.

The numbers do exist - they're just given by the fans... the most accurate ones anyway. (Devs - don't beat me for speakin the truth!)

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No matter how much they nerf something - it will not change anything. You will still have to play

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No, actually i dont have to. The question is 'Will I want to?"


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Actually - if you want to be in the game - then there isn't any choice in it for any of us. The devs have made this clear over and over again - this isn't a democracy ... it's at best a benevolent dictatorship. We either play the game they give us or we go find another. So it's not a choice.

Quiting is a type of choice... but it absolves you of the game, so ... no it's not really a choice at all.

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Now... half the posts in these forums scream that new content needs to be added... something has to change.

Okay - it just changed. Is your toon unplayable? Or is it just harder than ever? If it's one - then guess what, game rules changed and it's time to start the process over.

If it's just harder than ever... over come it. Haven't seen anyone on these forums yet that isn't capable of rising to that occasion. We got great players in this game... if the game gets harder - we just gotta get smarter... and we will.

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Making the same few missions harder does not, has not, nor will it ever equal 'new content'. Harder does not equal smarter. See cuz they'll either increase xp given out or decrease debt.

Nevermind the bad code that spawns a map full of yellow and orange minion/lt combos (and only at intersections.. lotsa empty empty hallways) in coh. In fact, I rarely see any mish hero-side that isnt that way from 1-25 or so. (And yes, I'm set to heroic.)


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Hmm... I have got 3 controllers, 2 tanks, 1 scrapper and 3 defenders... on Heroic I almost never see a yellow or an orange unless it's a boss. But I'll take your word on that and accept it - everyone has different types of toons.

As for the rest of this... that was my attempt to say we've been given lemons, make lemonade. Which is the only option we have for reasons I've stated above.

Whether we like this stuff or not - this is how it is. This is the way the devs want it.

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What I see is that full attention is only being given to the PvP side of the game. And each 'tweak' to better pvp makes pve suck worse than dirty brown water.

Even with all the xp and debt changes, I still run out of missions sometime during L9 and either need to street sweep or go to the Hollows. Neither of which are very appealing to me. Yet the focus remains on PvP issues.

My 50's have been nerfed into the ground for PvP's sake, yet cannot get their own PvP missions. Oh, and the maps are broken for them.. still. Nor have they had any new content in .. well I can barely remember the L40+ content in coh.. long enough that I cant even remember the issue.

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Agree with this totally. I believe the argument / statement currently being tossed around is... they can't update the CoH side until the CoV side is up to speed since the two will be inextricably linked from here on out... or some such.

It may or may not be true. A lot has been promised for down the road. I know the consistent attention to PvP is due to the fact that PvP is some game designers idea of unlimited content they don't have to code or write... since the players create the stories themselves.

That's always been a cool theory - but as has been the case here - it's usually a failure. The only replacement for good content ... is good content. Content however is expensive - and if the suits over at NCSoft -- who think they know more than Jack and everyone else decide PvP is the best option...

All the good ideas we have here, that Jack and the rest of the Devs have ... are just that ideas. NCSoft signs the checks - so they decide.

To be honest ... with Croatoa I saw us take a massive step backwards. The whole mystic woods thing ... drifted us away from the comic book roots of the game. And that was the last real content we've recieved.

ED and everything else - has all been an attempt to bring the game more in line with the needs of the PvP community. So that eventually the villian side, would be taking on the hero side - and thereby providing us with "content".

But you're right - content is not endless mindless battles against one another.

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Just putting in my plea as so many others in this thread have already done...

Please Dev's, just give us the ACCURATE FORMULA'S that you use in game for powers.

This would help all of us to make decisions, and would allow the player base to inform you when something is not working AS PUBLISHED.

It is utterly pointless to attempt to "plan" a AT in game without hard numbers. I can add a enhancement to my powers which may give it a 33/20/whatever amount of "boost" but without knowing what the base actually is, it is an uninformed decision at best. While the Hero Planners help in this regard, there is still a dark cloud of mystery around making decisions in game about our AT's and this needs to end.

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Yes ... giving us the formulas would help us. It would also give any competition they might have invaluable assistance in building their games, and may even void any patents or potential patents the game might get.

Priorities... letting people design the ultimate toon ... or tossing all their corporate copyrighted information out there for free... decisions... decisions... decisions...

Everytime I hear people discuss "planning their AT and needing the numbers" I cringe.

Here's a concept. Build a toon. Play it. See if it sucks. Learn how to get around said suckage.

Wash-rinse-repeat until you have one you really like. My favorite toons - were never built using a numbers template - I just played them and enjoyed them. I never thought about the numbers and 90% of the people in the game don't either.

They were hard - and I had to learn a lot through trial and error and eventually they're all awesome toons. Needing the numbers to build a good toon is like - - needing to know the specs on a cars engine to enjoy a drive on a sunday.

Sure it might help - but it's hardly necessary - and in general gets in the way of enjoying the scenery if you have to stop and monkey with the mechanics every 10 miles to make sure it's in top performance. If for some weird reason - they change the road on you - or the car suddenly isn't able to out run that sporty new job ... you're spending waaay too much time mechanics - and not enough on enjoying the drive.

No matter how much they nerf something - it will not change anything. You will still have to play - and it will suddenly become harder. Now... half the posts in these forums scream that new content needs to be added... something has to change.

Okay - it just changed. Is your toon unplayable? Or is it just harder than ever? If it's one - then guess what, game rules changed and it's time to start the process over.

If it's just harder than ever... over come it. Haven't seen anyone on these forums yet that isn't capable of rising to that occasion. We got great players in this game... if the game gets harder - we just gotta get smarter... and we will.

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There's a difference.

This isn't anyone's job. There are two community reps: Cuppa and Awry. No one else has to come here and tell us squat.

That they do rocks. That they don't get it right sucks. That they have promised to get it right and not done so sucks. I want it to get better, bad and right now. But it just ain't their damn job.

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Whether or not communicating accurate information about the game to the players is techincally part of the job description of the developers is not really relevant IMO.

Producing the patch notes must be part of someone at Cryptic's job (as opposed to NCSoft where Cuppa and Awry work) since they make the changes. And I think its pretty clear that the person or person's responsible has not been doing a good job of keeping accurate, informative patch notes ever since the game went live. States has acknowledged that Cryptic, specifically, must improve in this regard, and yet nothing has changed. Significant changes have continued to go to test in an undocumented or poorly explained fashion.

How many years does it take to learn how to do this task compentently? How much community good-will is Cryptic willing to continue to squander by letting this sorry state of affairs continue? Jack and the other developers will have to answer those questions for themselves.

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I dunno ... how many years does it take for you to do your job competently? You NEVER screw up? How many people are involved in the process that is "your job" - 1, 5, 10, 100?

How many of them have different processes which are required for them to do their job? 10, 50, 100? I'll bet dollars to donuts - that even at your jobs most complicated - it's 1/100th as easy a task than getting even one release of this software out the door. And in that relatively uncomplicated job -- that you probably have common mistakes and fall behind on like we all do Not saying you dont' do your job well - just saying your human like the rest of us, prone to mistakes, and even on your best day ever - they happen.

I've been in software development for some of the largest software manufacturers out there - even worked for the people who build the largest and best selling test and software process software. Let me tell you - NO ONE gets it right every time.

Software development - on it's best days - hitting the target and getting all the elements in place, on time and accurately - is hit and miss at best. And that's when you have all the money, tools, manpower you can ask for.

IBM has over 12 products I know they charge over $30k for - none of which have accurate documentation. Microsoft? Oracle? Sun? Apple? Let's not go there... I'd be laughing too hard. RedHat? Oh Puh-Leaze!! It Hurts!!

Now, if the leading software manufacturers out there - with roughly over 100 times the employees and man power (in some cases) that Cryptic has - can't get it perfect - and in some cases not even close to perfect ... cut them some slack.

I don't know the process between Cryptic and NC - but I'm willing to bet good money - that the exchange of communications is no different than anywhere else. When a product has bugs - and there's a fix process, a rollout process and a new code development process all going on simultaneously with an extremely short turn around cycle between development, Q&A and drop -- amazingly enough - the degree accuracy of the patch notes are the least of the worries in getting it out the door.

Be glad you get them at all.

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So yeah, I'm soooooooo inclined to believe this nerf really affects I7's timeline. If you believe that, I have a bridge I can sell you in San Franscisco *wink*.

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I'm a professional software developer, and depending on their build protocols and source control tools, rolling back one specific change could indeed throw the schedule off. I don't know any of their specifics, but it's believable.

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What people fail to understand is - yes, it's certainly possible to get a small team of developers to drop a fix in on short notice.

The problem with that may be you're taking them off of other work - which in turn causes a delay there - maybe it's only a small one... that in tosses off the schedule for another group - say Q&A which has to test it - but can't because they've got another priority - so that would set the work back there - and probably affect serveral other groups, who in turn... would also have to shift their schedules to accomodate ... and so on and so on.

Even stuff that you know - should never possibly be affected, code that's been gold for over a year - needs to be signed off against by someone if you're doing the process right.

Now realise the game also has to be released for multiple Operating systems - and in several languages - each, btw, needs to be tested, localized and globalized for... so consider how insane each one of these releases actually gets.

Heck, even changing the text on something - causes endless headaches... as the text in english - doesn't have the same width, or rules as it does in asian or cryllic or - heaven forbid - hebrew - (which don't follow the same rules of left>right and bi-directional text). Consider what would happen if everyones word balloons were the wrong size? Anyone remember the GIANT blue hand fiasco a while back on test?? Little things like that - can cause days to fix - which causes other teams to fall behind waiting on that fix - even though it doesn't affect them - it affects the people who have to test their fixes and thereby their schedules.

Making a "simple change" is hardly that. In fact, the longer the game has been out - the more complicated it becomes as more is added to it - more needs to be tested.

Getting a release of software out the door - is a bit like assembling a fine watches gears, in the dark, by hand. You can't just cram any old gear in however it fits or the whole dang thing won't work when you're done.

So has anyone ever gotten SG Stats to work? I type it - no errors - just get nada.

So... let me get this straight... you umm... intentionally - ran up your definance meter in one shot - to one shot some bad guys.... and you're amazed it does not work?


Does the term "exploit" mean ANYTHING to you? It never occured to you that the Definance scale may have code in there to prevent the very thing you're doing??

C'mon - how much of a genius does it take to figure out you could basically go to a nice hot zone and powerlevel yourself with almost no risk using that strategy. You think the dev's wouldn't take that into account?

I have a level 34 AR/Fire blaster ... and amazingly enough yes, defiance does in fact work on almost all missions.

Granted... I'd probably get more ummph from lighting discharged rectal methane with a bic lighter than what I get from it 80% of the time... to really see it work you need about 3/4 of a meter full and hold it for a good while.

But even with that criticism of it - I have on many occasions found out much to my surprise not only was it engaged but it actually was giving me very impressive damage. Enough so I've saved several teams by just continuing to fire where no sane mortal - even the tank - was left standing. (I also eat debt like candy in that toon. He's spent more time on the carpet than a rug doctor.)

What I've seemed to notice is that you have to sustain that meter for a while - then it kicks in. I have no data to prove this but my observations tend to indicate that jumping off a building ... may run the meter up - but you have to hold it at a level for a period to really see results.

Mind you - when I'm playing my blaster I seldom pay much attention to definace as I've always considered using it as a tactic a good way to get yourself killed. It is - what it is - a nice "gimmee" that kicks in measurably only when you're doing something pretty hardcore you should probably die from.

That is - after all - what it's designed to do. Not allow you to near suicide and one shot bosses.

[ QUOTE ]
Who are you, and what have you done to the States that was on a nerfing spree?

[/ QUOTE ]

My guess is... the REAL Statesman's back... c'mon fill us in on the details - we wanna know how you beat your evil twin!!

Oh... I don't know... I had left my DA Scrapper in Bloody Bay today after a mission there when I had to go deal with the door. I logged back on - and knowing I was in a PvP area - deep in there - kicked on my Death Shroud to avoid Stalker attacks, then used my Jetpack (kindly provided by the Devs for Xmas - thx) ... I went straight up - so that I could not make out things below since I did not want to be harrassed by - or confuse anyone - flying Stalkers in particular.

I flew straight to the chopper and started to get on when suddenly both police drones fired and fried the stalker who'd been stalking me for a while apparently.

I have never laughed so hard in all my life. So I'm wondering - was the bugger really behind me from the point I left my mission and DS was running - or was he just there at the base?

And what's more ... if he was at the base, then why at the chopper pad?

C'mon Stalkers - give me some BS crap about how "I only go after people I know are doing PvP and not missions...", when you're hanging out around the chopper where people come in and out.

All this does is tell me two things about Stalkers...
1) They really aren't that bright.
2) They really are a bit over the line when they get as far as the chopper where you enter the zone.

well... and a third thing that I already knew...

3) They have no skill - if they have to gank to get a kill.

I'm kind of completely and totally against the idea of "giving" SG's huge sums. I agree it'd be like starting your toon off with the option of being a lvl 20.

I think if they just based the cost of items on a reasonable model in the first place we would not have these issues.

1,500,000 for some of these rooms and items - that's insane. Sure we can do it - but what does it get me? Another PvP feature like a Mega-Monitor which is basically eye candy?? How much does it actually increase your defenses in a raid? And... if I'm not going to PvP why should I want one?

Sure the answer to many is - if you're not going to PvP - then ... don't buy it. Okay ... so then all SG Bases are for is eye candy and PvP. Something we've been told over and over again is not the case.

If you tell me that bases are not just for PvP - then include some non-PvP content for them... and make it something other than glorified eye candy. Make it of value and use to us.

[ QUOTE ]
One needs to undergo risk to gather resources (let's use Salvage as an example), but there isn't much risk in clicking on a computer.

[/ QUOTE ]

My apologies States, - because I'm going to OPENLY - rob that last line out of context and I want everyone to know I did so they don't put words in your mouth like I'm about to....

Okay - we under went risk to get our Salvage. And now we have to pay again as a reward to use it for building? Then once it's built - since the inf used to build it now becomes a resource and is taxable - we have to pay for it again in rent?

How does the risk vs. reward work in that equation as an encentive?

You're absolutely right - it's not like clicking on a computer for no risk. I already garnered my risk. Where is my reward?

Maybe I'm dense - but in the risk vs. reward equation it's mine - I risked my neck to get it... you have no right to charge me to use it. That's like charging people for Hammi-O's or other drops.

I understand there's a bigger picture here - but please can anyone tell me anywhere else in this game - do we risk for no reward? I don't mean to cut you to the quick on this one Jack, but obviously theres some reasoning here - I - and most others - do not understand.

Please explain.

Pax, first of all - don't confuse me with the gentle person posting that a team of 5 is not an SG. - Let me rephrase that again ... 5 people can be an SG.

5 people can be - an SG.

I personally have - in addition to the 3 SG's which are quite large - some at the cap - a 3 man SG of my own as well. I do understand the needs and wants of a 3 man SG - their purpose and the desire for some people to keep an SG small.

I'm good with all of that. I support them - and feel that either way - small, medium or large - an SG is a grouping of people who when they get a base - deserve to have the things inside it provide value for the time, effort and energy they expend.

These things - and the effort used to produce them - should be in balance. If a group of 3, or a group of 30, puts in the man hours, death and debt - to obtain a Medical Bay with Reclaimators - then they should at least provide a level of functionality which is on par with the hospital.

I'm not saying they should heal like the the hospital - I'm saying if the units (which originally had a lot of weird bugs - I myself watched a couple SG mates use them and arrive dead needing to be rez'd in the base) - which - btw - still can happen)... if those units do not provide me with some reason that is equal to or superior to going to the hospital why should I spend the hard earned hours we've put into them for that??

The same goes for every other item. If all SG bases are is eye candy then I'm having a hard time justifying to people over level 35 to not just suck up influence and help out those under that level.

The balance that everyone seems to be seeking isn't between big SG's and smaller ones - it's between the level of Risk vs Reward that the Devs always talk about.

Is our risk - justification for the reward we recieve? That - I believe - is the real issue we need to address.

I got a couple PM's from people - so thought I'd make my thoughts actually clear on some things I've said here.

First off - in no way do I want people to think that the Devs and Jack have not done "enough" on the over all subject of Bases.

Just having them is great, and a big "Yea!" to all those who brought them to us this far - is in order.

What my complaint is - and it's the same one I'm hearing from other SG heads, and the same one I'm hearing from members is in essence...

"Great, we just spent the last week of our lives busting butt to get this - and it does what for us??? Why did I bother??"

As pointed out in a previous post - NONE of the things we've worked very hard for - work as described - or more accurately - as expected. The hype - does not live up to the reward when you finally get it.

This is due to broken items - such as the SG Mission Computer, which I suspect - is going to be more of a pain than it's worth to actually accomplish the trials that it's offering - especially the IoP, which from what I can see will be more bragging rights than useful. With only a 1% boost - or 5% boost depending on who you talk to - and only 2 months to keep, and the weekly damage to your base from every other SG out there trying to get at it - I can't justify that effort to my people. Once or twice for bragging rights - but after that - it's just a waste of prestige needed to rebuild the base after a raid.

It is due to items which work - like the Reclaimators and the TP units - but offer to be honest a double edged sword of value. A good example is the Reclaimators - now that they no longer drop you at mission doors - I'm recomending in most cases for my lower level sg members who do not have travel - to just go to the hospital.

The risk of running across a zone is not justified with reduced health. Until we get the SG Healing badge - which those of you with small to medium SG's I don't see happening very quickly (probably 3-9 months) it's usefulness is very very limited.

The TP units? I know from personal experience about 1 out of every 5-6 uses - does in fact drop me in mid-air in the hollows with a drop that does from 80-120 pts of damage. Now when I hit - I have personally landed in a group of CoT which promptly mezzed me and killed me. This is not useful.

The Workshop system is out of wack for small groups - and in some ways for larger groups as well. Salvage comes in faster than we can afford to incorporate build items into the bases. Those items which we build we are in effect billed for 3 times - once in effort to get the salvage, again in the cost of deploying the item (effectively purchasing it) and again in the form of rent because our rent goes up based on the valuation of the base - bigger items - bigger rooms - more rent.

That's just obscene. I know it's been argued that eventually an SG will no longer be able to add items due to the cost of rent coming in. By numbers - this is not the case, but it will create a rent level that is certainly prohibitive. Once again - this is insane.

We are talking about SG bases. We are not talking about powersets here. We are not talking about giving a player an unfair advantage over another - with the exception that those in an SG have an advantage over those who do not. But that has nothing to do with size of an SG and bases. Anyone - in any SG has an advantage over a non-SG member in this game merely because they can call on them and team with them more easily.

The concept of reward vs. risk - is out of wack with Bases. The reward recieved in prestige - whether we get too much or too little I won't argue.

But what we do - once we've recieved that reward - should not be tainted by the fact that all items we recieve are of little use. The analogy made earlier - that essentially most of the "useful" items in the base are akin to Carnival prizes, easily broken, often cheap and flawed, but eye candy is pretty much dead on.

When I spend money - in the name of others I have a responsiblity to do so wisely. To demand quality and useful return for my expenditures in the name of my group.

That is all I'm doing. Requiring that the devs go back - and revisit the actual usefulness of each item - and realise that the cost to produce or procure that item was in man hours of dozens of people - or a few people with hundreds of hours of play. Risk vs. Reward.

Did those hundreds of hours of play - justify the expense? What value add did it give us which we do not already have? Is there an additional cost in terms of risk associated with the use of it?

Those are the questions the devs need to keep in mind - and balance with the goal of a slow progression on a base. Is the return to the player who has invested time and effort sufficient for them to justify that effort for a bauble??

Keep in mind - the devs have had these for months. They're used to them. They didn't have to burn hours to get them. They know the final outcome. I think that in the end - each item will prove it's worth. But most players will not stick around to see that. Most will look at the hours they've invested and say, "There comes a time when you're just being a damned fool and wasting effort to that goal when I have other goals I want to attain.", and move on.

[ QUOTE ]
And let's see, comics examples of less-than-seventy-odd-member Super Groups:
[*] Teen Titans (5 members)[*] The Fantastic Four (well, gee ...)[*] The New Warriors (6 members)[*] The New Mutants (9 core members, IIRC)

[/ QUOTE ]

Titans have had over 60 members over the years... the Fantastic "Four" - has included everyone from Spiderman to the their Mailman as 'official' members - The New Warriors ... dunno it's not a classic title so not one I read - New Mutants have had an entire schools worth.

If we're going to compare titles to CoH you're wasting your time. We can emulate all we want but we are NONE of these and I suggest if you want a large SG you get them out of your head and concentrate on pleasing your members through being there for them and teaming.

That - more than anything will determine the size of your SG. To be a hero is to be there for people - SG members or people in general. Most SG's fall apart due to a lack of commitment not to the SG but to it's membership.

If you only want a small SG - then keep in mind that Batman, although a singular hero - is both insanely wealthy and has had years to build that ultra cool base. In the early days the batcave was nothing more than an underground garage.

Supermans Fortress of Solitude - has similarly had years to build up - and is owned by the most powerful being on the planet with people owing him favors going back over 70 years. Of course it's going to be packed.

The Fantastic Four - have Government and corporate sponsors.

Spiderman ... has a closet. Keep it in perspective.

If they were serious bout all of this balance on SG bases - then they'd dump the costs of crafting items from salvage and costing you prestige to place them. They'd have most - if not all items made from salvage - and salvage drops would be rare and from AV's or the like - so that building them required combined efforts and took time. And the more dangerous missions you ran - and the longer you've been as a particular toon - the more likely you'd be offered Government or Corporate Sponsorships. We'd also be given the option to make fortunes on our own - through "day jobs" - and use that to build up our bases.

In order to build the ultra-cool or neat-o toys in bases - you'd need to go to the universities and build up skills in technology and the like - get your degrees and invent your own crap. You'd need to have skilled (educated or skilled) Healers for your medical units - engineers for power and control, physicists for weapons and teleporters. You'd need massive tanks and blasters to carve your base rooms out - or diplomats and businessmen to purchase your rooms. It would possibly be cool - but it would take the kind of commitement that only a handful of SGs have to actually pull it off.

That would be a comparable situation to the comics.

And I also commend him for saying something and the offer of helping the Sm-Med SG's.

My point is not that bases are foundless or useless - just we put in the time and the effort - in many of our cases, millions worth of prestige which is earned slowly - the larger of the SGs not getting the advantages that smaller SG's do in that we have a cap limit, and it's only fair that the things we put into the Base should be of use to us.

As is - they aren't. I know that Jack and the Devs will get them going but this is very disapointing that they pushed this out with so much broken. It really deflates morale and is painful to many that the effort they put in is not rewarded in any form that is of use to them.

It's bad enough that the non-CoVers get no rewards for their efforts - but to put in the effort for your fellow team mates and discover that the effort is for items which are of no real practical use on a consistent basis is flat out mean.