One shotting has got to end
By
Acanous_Quietus,
Posted on: 2005-12-07 01:38 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Are we talking about PvP here or did you just try and solo Requiem at level 10?
[ QUOTE ]
Are we talking about PvP here or did you just try and solo Requiem at level 10?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yea, is this a PvP rant? If so, then what exactly would a melee AT with low defenses and stealth (Stalkers) hope to accomplish in PvP beyond just getting crushed? Also, I've been on the receiving end of an AS before as a squishy and many times I live.
You mean they don't pop red inspirations before delivering the fatal blow?!?!......They went from tankers to stalkers too fast, don't you think? 
[ QUOTE ]
There should be no attack in the game other than Nukes, that should do more than 75% of a squishies health, period. This game will be a better place.
[/ QUOTE ]Let me guess you must be a blaster that had his first experience with a stalker.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
*AIM*
*BUILD UP*
*SNIPER BLAST THIS POST TO HELL*
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There should be no attack in the game other than Nukes, that should do more than 75% of a squishies health, period. This game will be a better place.
[/ QUOTE ]Let me guess you must be a blaster that had his first experience with a stalker.
[/ QUOTE ]
Let me guess, you're a stalker...... 
I sometimes think it's funny when the Stalker comment on how whiny everyone is. They should read some of their own posts sometimes.
In the end, everyone is whiny except possibly defenders, who don't count because they largely get ignored.
[ QUOTE ]
There should be no attack in the game other than Nukes, that should do more than 75% of a squishies health, period. This game will be a better place.
[/ QUOTE ]
BZZZT! No it wouldn't. If such a thing were to happen we'd have to call it "City of Boredom". 
[ QUOTE ]
In the end, everyone is whiny except possibly defenders, who don't count because they largely get ignored.
[/ QUOTE ]
Great... Now your going to get the Defenders all whining about how they "can too whine!" Why don't you call them "healers" while you are at it??
[ QUOTE ]
Are we talking about PvP here or did you just try and solo Requiem at level 10?
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually it doesn't matter. Barring the situation of tackling stuff that is way beyond your level, getting one-shotted by anything is equivalent to the game randomly deciding it is time for you to die. Even getting 95% swatted isn't fun, since usually that other 5% has already been queued by another critter before you know what happened. And not being afforded an opportunity at all to respond isn't challenging in the sense that an adventure game is fun to play, it is challenging in the sense that draws people to Roulette or slot-machines.
So it really doesn't matter if what one-swatted you was a stalker, AV, nasty boss, or even a lucky minion. It sucks regardless of how it happens. Relying on random insta-death (from the dieing player's perspective) isn't challenging, it is a design crutch. It might have been fun back in the SNES days but this isn't Super Mario.
Princess Grace - MA/Inv scrapper
Solana - Mind/Energy dominator
Lyonette - Kat/SR scrapper
I move to make the word 'Period' a bannable offense from this board. It shouldn't be used. Period. It doesn't make your post seem more urgent, final or unyeilding. Period. It's just annoying. Period.
[ QUOTE ]
I move to make the word 'Period' a bannable offense from this board. It shouldn't be used. Period. It doesn't make your post seem more urgent, final or unyeilding. Period. It's just annoying. Period.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree, period! The Period nerf needs to be put into effect... STAT!
PS: nerf "stat" too!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are we talking about PvP here or did you just try and solo Requiem at level 10?
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually it doesn't matter. Barring the situation of tackling stuff that is way beyond your level, getting one-shotted by anything is equivalent to the game randomly deciding it is time for you to die. Even getting 95% swatted isn't fun, since usually that other 5% has already been queued by another critter before you know what happened. And not being afforded an opportunity at all to respond isn't challenging in the sense that an adventure game is fun to play, it is challenging in the sense that draws people to Roulette or slot-machines.
So it really doesn't matter if what one-swatted you was a stalker, AV, nasty boss, or even a lucky minion. It sucks regardless of how it happens. Relying on random insta-death (from the dieing player's perspective) isn't challenging, it is a design crutch. It might have been fun back in the SNES days but this isn't Super Mario.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well said. Unfortunately, little joe with his uber-stalker (who jumped ship from Device blaster/regen scrapper/tanker-land) can't understand this
[ QUOTE ]
getting one-shotted by anything is equivalent to the game randomly deciding it is time for you to die.
[/ QUOTE ]
Randomly?
Well, in a sense.
The to hit chance is random but it's modified by the statistics of both the attacker and the defender
The damage done by any given attack is not random, it's a combination of modifiers from the attacker and the defender.
The hit points of a toon is not random, it's a fixed value modified by their choices of build.
The resistance to any given attack is also not random. Again it's determined by build and AT.
So, the only random element in the entire equation is the to hit check. I fail to see how we can remove the to hit check from the game.
[ QUOTE ]
And not being afforded an opportunity at all to respond isn't challenging in the sense that an adventure game is fun to play,
[/ QUOTE ]
If anyone is guarenteed the ability to activate Personal Force Field (or any of the other "uber" defense powers, PFF is just particularly nasty because it's a level 1 power) between drawing aggro and dying then the game instantly becomes unbalanced in favour of people with those powers.
If you dislike getting one-shotted so much it ruins your enjoyment of the game perhaps you should consider an AT with higher hit points? Invulernability Tankers are quite hard ot one-shot now that Perma-Dull Pain is available.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In the end, everyone is whiny except possibly defenders, who don't count because they largely get ignored.
[/ QUOTE ]
Great... Now your going to get the Defenders all whining about how they "can too whine!" Why don't you call them "healers" while you are at it??
[/ QUOTE ]
Woah woah woah, there's a difference between being flippant and being whiny. Defenders are highly flippant, and we stand by our views. Insult them and you shall feel our wrath!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are we talking about PvP here or did you just try and solo Requiem at level 10?
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually it doesn't matter. Barring the situation of tackling stuff that is way beyond your level, getting one-shotted by anything is equivalent to the game randomly deciding it is time for you to die. Even getting 95% swatted isn't fun, since usually that other 5% has already been queued by another critter before you know what happened. And not being afforded an opportunity at all to respond isn't challenging in the sense that an adventure game is fun to play, it is challenging in the sense that draws people to Roulette or slot-machines.
So it really doesn't matter if what one-swatted you was a stalker, AV, nasty boss, or even a lucky minion. It sucks regardless of how it happens. Relying on random insta-death (from the dieing player's perspective) isn't challenging, it is a design crutch. It might have been fun back in the SNES days but this isn't Super Mario.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well said. Unfortunately, little joe with his uber-stalker (who jumped ship from Device blaster/regen scrapper/tanker-land) can't understand this
[/ QUOTE ]
So where exactly does it get "fun" again?
Ok, so it's not fun to get one-shotted --> nerf stalkers and blasters
It's also not fun to get two-shotted from a que'd up sequence --> nerf stalker, blasters, scrappers, brutes
Is it fun to get three shotted by another sequence?
Why must certain AT's be nerfed away from their strengths to accomodate other AT's weaknesses?
If I'm a squishy, I don't cry nerf when an offensive juggernaut crushes me. I overstepped my limitations.
If I'm an offensive juggernaut, I don't cry nerf when a squishy mez's me.
You have to live with weaknesses you have. Not bring everyone down because of your own weakness.
As long ast the opponent has some chance to do something other than die, then things are peachy. They don't need very long, maybe a second if not less, but at least having the chance to either put up some form of retaliation or evasion would be great.
We're not saying that Stalkers should always lose, we just want a chance to fight back.
[ QUOTE ]
As long ast the opponent has some chance to do something other than die, then things are peachy. They don't need very long, maybe a second if not less, but at least having the chance to either put up some form of retaliation or evasion would be great.
We're not saying that Stalkers should always lose, we just want a chance to fight back.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is a valid argument. But from experience playing both a blaster and a stalker in PvP, it would be just as easy to two shot people.
What I'm trying to say, is that 2 shotting is pretty much just as easy for any AT that can 1 shot.
Consider this:
I'm a stalker facing a scrapper - I can't one shot a scrapper without some serious buffage, so - I BU+AS+strong follow up melee. If I have this que'd up, that scrapper will die IF he doesn't get away from my second melee attack by effectively running. So if all goes right, I've killed my scrapper in 2 shots and in about 2 seconds after my initial attack.
I'm a blaster going against a scrapper - I can't one shot without serious buffage, so - BU+AIM+snipe+strong range attack. If i have this que'd up, the scrapper will die in two hits EVEN IF HE RUNS (in most cases because its very hard to escape the blaster range in the 1 second it take to fire off the 2nd attack). So, I've killed my scrapper in the same amount of time.
Point is, where is the line drawn on what is fair/fun? If we eliminate one shotting, two shotting is really just as easy for some AT's. Trust me, its how I kill beefier AT's. So do we get rid of two shotting too?
At some point everyone just has to play the hand thats out there. There are ways around EVERYTHING out there, even getting one shot.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are we talking about PvP here or did you just try and solo Requiem at level 10?
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually it doesn't matter. Barring the situation of tackling stuff that is way beyond your level, getting one-shotted by anything is equivalent to the game randomly deciding it is time for you to die. Even getting 95% swatted isn't fun, since usually that other 5% has already been queued by another critter before you know what happened. And not being afforded an opportunity at all to respond isn't challenging in the sense that an adventure game is fun to play, it is challenging in the sense that draws people to Roulette or slot-machines.
So it really doesn't matter if what one-swatted you was a stalker, AV, nasty boss, or even a lucky minion. It sucks regardless of how it happens. Relying on random insta-death (from the dieing player's perspective) isn't challenging, it is a design crutch. It might have been fun back in the SNES days but this isn't Super Mario.
[/ QUOTE ]
Random? How is it random when someone successfully manages to sneak up on you, que the attack, land it, and manage to kill you? It didn't just happen the guy did a lot of work to accomplish the task.
Are you saying there is zero defense against this AS? If so you're wrong. The stalkers have to be careful to not pick a target that can see them or fight back or has a buddy ready to smash them into a puddle. If the stalker kills you but then dies because of your teammate it's an even score. To gain the edge the stalker has to be somewhat patient and intelligent in what he does.
Oh, and if it's not fun then why are people playing stalkers? Seems like a good portion of people enjoy this style of play. It's not fun for you but they are having fun. Are you saying that it has to please everyone at all times? I doubt that's ever going to happen.
Lastly, please explain to me how a stalker can do anything if the AS fails to kill someone. My experience is that a stalker is either dead or running for his life when the AS fails to get the job done. He has very little else he can do. You want him to stand there and just take a beating? Even my defenders can kill them in a fair fight, or at least capture him so a teammate can do it. Yea, that sounds like fun for the stalkers - reveal yourself to the enemy and give him a chance to hold or mezz you so you can then be killed.
The balance for stalkers is that they really can't live much beyond the AS and when revealed are easy pickings. If you want to take away the AS then you need to change everything else because I don't see how they could do anything without AS being a seriously dangerous weapon.
Even if they were to just add a short "winding down" period of no more than one second at the end of a snipe or AS (or fixed how suppression doesn't work for them), then things would be fine.
It would sort of exclude them from normal attack chains, but those powers are rarely part of them anyway. I use my snipe in the middle of a battle all the time, but that's just me 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are we talking about PvP here or did you just try and solo Requiem at level 10?
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually it doesn't matter. Barring the situation of tackling stuff that is way beyond your level, getting one-shotted by anything is equivalent to the game randomly deciding it is time for you to die. Even getting 95% swatted isn't fun, since usually that other 5% has already been queued by another critter before you know what happened. And not being afforded an opportunity at all to respond isn't challenging in the sense that an adventure game is fun to play, it is challenging in the sense that draws people to Roulette or slot-machines.
So it really doesn't matter if what one-swatted you was a stalker, AV, nasty boss, or even a lucky minion. It sucks regardless of how it happens. Relying on random insta-death (from the dieing player's perspective) isn't challenging, it is a design crutch. It might have been fun back in the SNES days but this isn't Super Mario.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well said.
PVP requires no skill now if all a person has to do is make sure their victim has no perception powers/defense and one shot them. This becomes even easier when your victim is preoccupied with another opponent.
I dont mind getting 2 shotted. 2 shotted means I have a reasonable chance to heal, escape, retailiate. And I dont wanna be forced to play a more hearty, boring AT just bc there is a few ATs out there than have this 1 shotting advantage. Thats why I refuse to play blasters/stalkers. Hitting the "I win button" is pathetic. It requires no thought.
Actually, something is already being looked into for this. It may not be something like you want were you are left with 25% hitpoints, more likely 1 hitpoint, but at least one shotting is being looked into .
PERIOD. EXCLAMATION POINT! (can we even do that?)
Your idea sucks. PvP and Stalkers would be boring as hell without 1-shotting. The only thing that needs to change about 1-shotting is the mechanics leading up to it....IE: Inspiration and Stealth Abuse ...Including Nukes. Snipes are already governed by Line of Sight so they're not as bad. But everyone needs more options on stopping 1-shotting. After that, it's their own fault if they get 1-shotted, or 2-shotted.
There should be no attack in the game other than Nukes, that should do more than 75% of a squishies health, period. This game will be a better place.