One shotting has got to end
By
Acanous_Quietus,
Posted on: 2005-12-07 01:38 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Snipes are already governed by Line of Sight so they're not as bad.
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This applies to AS as well. If you jump behind around the corner of a building, no AS.
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Are we talking about PvP here or did you just try and solo Requiem at level 10?
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Actually it doesn't matter. Barring the situation of tackling stuff that is way beyond your level, getting one-shotted by anything is equivalent to the game randomly deciding it is time for you to die. Even getting 95% swatted isn't fun, since usually that other 5% has already been queued by another critter before you know what happened. And not being afforded an opportunity at all to respond isn't challenging in the sense that an adventure game is fun to play, it is challenging in the sense that draws people to Roulette or slot-machines.
So it really doesn't matter if what one-swatted you was a stalker, AV, nasty boss, or even a lucky minion. It sucks regardless of how it happens. Relying on random insta-death (from the dieing player's perspective) isn't challenging, it is a design crutch. It might have been fun back in the SNES days but this isn't Super Mario.
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Well said.
PVP requires no skill now if all a person has to do is make sure their victim has no perception powers/defense and one shot them. This becomes even easier when your victim is preoccupied with another opponent.
I dont mind getting 2 shotted. 2 shotted means I have a reasonable chance to heal, escape, retailiate. And I dont wanna be forced to play a more hearty, boring AT just bc there is a few ATs out there than have this 1 shotting advantage. Thats why I refuse to play blasters/stalkers. Hitting the "I win button" is pathetic. It requires no thought.
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Just wanted to say that it does take skill to play a stalker.
That is all.
Patience does not = skill.
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PVP requires no skill now if all a person has to do is make sure their victim has no perception powers/defense and one shot them. This becomes even easier when your victim is preoccupied with another opponent.
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That requires no skill? So then why is it that I've lived thru AS before with multiple defenders. It's not a lock for a kill. If it were a no brainer it would work 100% of the time no matter what the stalker did. That isn't the case.
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I dont mind getting 2 shotted. 2 shotted means I have a reasonable chance to heal, escape, retailiate. And I dont wanna be forced to play a more hearty, boring AT just bc there is a few ATs out there than have this 1 shotting advantage. Thats why I refuse to play blasters/stalkers. Hitting the "I win button" is pathetic. It requires no thought.
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If you force the stalker into a 2 shot then "you win" each time. The stalker can't live much longer after a failed AS. So we should doom the stalker because you don't like to play them? A bit selfish don't you think?
Oh, and you don't have to play a tanker or scrapper to defeat a stalker but you have to change your tactics. Are you against adapting to the situation or something? Why can't you pick up a perception boosting power, or team with someone who has it, or stay close to a teammate who can help? In other words .. adapt?
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Patience does not = skill.
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So then being intelligent isn't a skill either? Or that means that if I'm impatient and just attack the nearest target when he's at full health I'm still being skillful?
No matter what you think AS is not a given one shot. You should try it and see how often it fails (and how often you die when it does fail) just to see what it's like. Otherwise it's sour grapes really.
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We're not saying that Stalkers should always lose, we just want a chance to fight back.
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You do have a chance to fight back...
... in fact you have the chance to fight back FIRST.
build up the perception bonuses needed to see through hide... snicker to yourself as the stalker 'sneaks' up on you... then blow him to smithereens.
Or is that not fair to him?
Stop your blathering, the weakness is not in the powers but in yourselves.
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If you force the stalker into a 2 shot then "you win" each time. The stalker can't live much longer after a failed AS. So we should doom the stalker because you don't like to play them? A bit selfish don't you think?
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Can't live much longer? Sorry ninja but that's if you have the brilliant idea of attempting an AS in the middle of multiple opponents. Other than that, you just placate and prepare AS again.
Stalkers not having an inch of defense is a fairy tale.
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Oh, and you don't have to play a tanker or scrapper to defeat a stalker but you have to change your tactics. Are you against adapting to the situation or something? Why can't you pick up a perception boosting power, or team with someone who has it, or stay close to a teammate who can help? In other words .. adapt?
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So if they change the 1 shot-kill thing, or placate (which never misses) will you adapt too?....
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Stop your blathering, the weakness is not in the powers but in yourselves.
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Wheter they end up changing AS or not, this is the biggest piece of C.R.A.P. I've ever read. I'm sure you thought smoke grenade was "working as intended" 
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Can't live much longer? Sorry ninja but that's if you have the brilliant idea of attempting an AS in the middle of multiple opponents. Other than that, you just placate and prepare AS again.
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Yes and while the stalker placates you the target is completely helpless and is unable to I don't know use respites, +HP powers (like dull pain and such) or pop lucks so that AS misses so that the stalker does not stand a chance.
/rolls eyes.
If you hate stalkers so much why don't you get + perception powers. You don't go out in below zero weather butt naked then blame the weather because you got sick
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Snipes are already governed by Line of Sight so they're not as bad.
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This applies to AS as well. If you jump behind around the corner of a building, no AS.
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No [censored] Sherlock. But here's the thing... AS is a melee attack. Teleporting or Leaping 50 yards away while it's still interruptable, but being hit because there's still a line of Sight is the kind of crap you'd expect in magical fairies and hobbits and sharks with friggin lasers on their heads fantasy Land... It has no place in a game like this that is highly twitch based and goverened by Ragdoll Physics. ...Do you have any idea of the full collision detection potential that Ragdoll and CoH's superior AI programming could accomplish??? We're talking 9th Wonder of the World here. We should expect better. Infact combined with Placate, long-range AS is the biggest "I Win" Button any AT has ever had in PvP, beating out I4's Perma-Ellude Scrappers and Perma-Phaseshifters.
Infact#2, I already passed this issue onto Statesman and he in turn went through the trouble to reply back and tell me he was sending it to Castle. It doesn't seem like an issue that 'would make the engineers' heads explode' so no one here is to say it's "working as intended" or "going to stay that way" until the Devs get back to us on it. Capiche? (Not directed at BRod, but at everyone else who argues just for the sake of arguing)
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Yes and while the stalker placates you the target is completely helpless and is unable to I don't know use respites, +HP powers (like dull pain and such) or pop lucks so that AS misses so that the stalker does not stand a chance.
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Cool! I can pop up some respites! What a brilliant idea!!! Great way to fight back!!! I'm sure your idea of "fun" is more whacked than jack's!!!
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If you hate stalkers so much why don't you get + perception powers. You don't go out in below zero weather butt naked then blame the weather because you got sick
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You're a dork, I don't hate stalkers, I play one. Sooner or later, they will change something...so lets enjoy it while we can.
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So if they change the 1 shot-kill thing, or placate (which never misses) will you adapt too?....
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This is the thing I love the most.
Someone posts a link to an argument that suggests the devs are going to be incredibly short-sighted and put in some sort of 'no 1-shot' rule... so no you make sure to start dogging and moaning about another aspect of the power set, just in the hope that you can get that nerfed too.
The problem with this, is that just as soon as they nerf the stalker... they're going to have to go after other people too... because the Stalker will become totally ineffective in PvP.. and since you are pushing that the class has to be balanced for PvP... well they'll either need to up the stalker or reduce other people (say make it impossible to penetrate 'hide')... guess which will happen?
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Can't live much longer? Sorry ninja but that's if you have the brilliant idea of attempting an AS in the middle of multiple opponents. Other than that, you just placate and prepare AS again.
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So waiiiiiit a second... you want it balanced so a stalker can't run over a squishie who he gets alone? Because things should be balanced for when a stalker is fighting a single opponent?
Huh.
Why can't they balance things for when people aren't being stupid?
I mean let's see.... you're in a PvP zone.... there are enemies that can AS you... and you're wandering alone as a squishy... and doing it in such a way that they can walk up and kill you.
Do you often make large cash withdrawals from ATMs on poorly-lit streets, and then walk to the alley where you've parked your BMW?
No class in the game should be gimped just so that other people can be stupid and live. Though we have plenty of evidence that enough people whining will get exactly that.
BTW: I don't play a stalker... so you can toss out all those little tidbits about enjoying killing people with AS. In fact... I enjoy hunting stalkers and making their lives a bit difficult, but that's just me 
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If you hate stalkers so much why don't you get + perception powers. You don't go out in below zero weather butt naked then blame the weather because you got sick
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You're a dork, I don't hate stalkers, I play one. Sooner or later, they will change something...so lets enjoy it while we can.
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nice to see your level of intelligence has not gotten past kindergarden level, calling people dorks suits you very well.
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Wheter they end up changing AS or not, this is the biggest piece of C.R.A.P. I've ever read. I'm sure you thought smoke grenade was "working as intended"
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Ah.. you're a funny funny man... let me list all of the devices blasters I played.
Wow... long list right there.
I've played 0 of the cheesy combosets, and I've 0 times done the TP Foe/Trip Mines, or AS, or any of that. But way back when they first pushed PvP into this game and people started whining about it I became a proponent of using your brain for something other than a chamberpot.
So... before you make assumptions and personal attacks, why don't you make a counter to the argument? Please explain why you should not in any way shape or form have to take measures so that you're prepared to deal with the core power of someone else's powerset?
This is akin to asking to be immune to being mezz'ed the first time, without having to use break-frees.
This is akin to asking not to be debuffed/slowed/knocked down the first time a status effect hits you successfully.
You don't want to have to adjust your tactics around the fact that stalkers exist.... so you'd like them castrated.
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Are we talking about PvP here or did you just try and solo Requiem at level 10?
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Actually it doesn't matter. Barring the situation of tackling stuff that is way beyond your level, getting one-shotted by anything is equivalent to the game randomly deciding it is time for you to die. Even getting 95% swatted isn't fun, since usually that other 5% has already been queued by another critter before you know what happened. And not being afforded an opportunity at all to respond isn't challenging in the sense that an adventure game is fun to play, it is challenging in the sense that draws people to Roulette or slot-machines.
So it really doesn't matter if what one-swatted you was a stalker, AV, nasty boss, or even a lucky minion. It sucks regardless of how it happens. Relying on random insta-death (from the dieing player's perspective) isn't challenging, it is a design crutch. It might have been fun back in the SNES days but this isn't Super Mario.
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Well said.
PVP requires no skill now if all a person has to do is make sure their victim has no perception powers/defense and one shot them. This becomes even easier when your victim is preoccupied with another opponent.
I dont mind getting 2 shotted. 2 shotted means I have a reasonable chance to heal, escape, retailiate. And I dont wanna be forced to play a more hearty, boring AT just bc there is a few ATs out there than have this 1 shotting advantage. Thats why I refuse to play blasters/stalkers. Hitting the "I win button" is pathetic. It requires no thought.
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And so we see what PvP almost instantly descended into -- the ATs with the massive alpha strikes lining up to one-shot the ATs that are vulnerable to their alpha strikes, who in turn hide from the ATs that can survive their alpha strike and the subsequent damage long enough to beat them into the ground, and avoid the ATs that can keep them from getting in to deliver their alpha strike. Stratification based on HP and defenses.
"But in our enthusiasm, we could not resist a radical overhaul of the system, in which all of its major weaknesses have been exposed, analyzed, and replaced with new weaknesses."
-- Bruce Leverett, Register Allocation in Optimizing Compilers
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Are we talking about PvP here or did you just try and solo Requiem at level 10?
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Actually it doesn't matter. Barring the situation of tackling stuff that is way beyond your level, getting one-shotted by anything is equivalent to the game randomly deciding it is time for you to die. Even getting 95% swatted isn't fun, since usually that other 5% has already been queued by another critter before you know what happened. And not being afforded an opportunity at all to respond isn't challenging in the sense that an adventure game is fun to play, it is challenging in the sense that draws people to Roulette or slot-machines.
So it really doesn't matter if what one-swatted you was a stalker, AV, nasty boss, or even a lucky minion. It sucks regardless of how it happens. Relying on random insta-death (from the dieing player's perspective) isn't challenging, it is a design crutch. It might have been fun back in the SNES days but this isn't Super Mario.
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Well said.
PVP requires no skill now if all a person has to do is make sure their victim has no perception powers/defense and one shot them. This becomes even easier when your victim is preoccupied with another opponent.
I dont mind getting 2 shotted. 2 shotted means I have a reasonable chance to heal, escape, retailiate. And I dont wanna be forced to play a more hearty, boring AT just bc there is a few ATs out there than have this 1 shotting advantage. Thats why I refuse to play blasters/stalkers. Hitting the "I win button" is pathetic. It requires no thought.
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Just wanted to say that it does take skill to play a stalker.
That is all.
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Just wanted to laugh at that. Stalker really was "Easy Mode" for me. That's why I abandoned the AT. It just made every victory feel...cheap.
Stand UP.
FIGHT BACK!
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And so we see what PvP almost instantly descended into -- the ATs with the massive alpha strikes lining up to one-shot the ATs that are vulnerable to their alpha strikes, who in turn hide from the ATs that can survive their alpha strike and the subsequent damage long enough to beat them into the ground, and avoid the ATs that can keep them from getting in to deliver their alpha strike. Stratification based on HP and defenses.
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Or you know... maybe just maybe people approach PvP as what it is?
Heroes fighting Villains.
Plural.
Maybe they put a bit of thought into assembling a PvP team, so that there are complimentary strengths, and adjust their tactics for their weaknesses.
Because any amount of good teamwork beats all the instakill BS in the end.
The other night I saw a team of heroes essentially dominating Bloody Bay. They were out on the beach fighting heros and villains alike as they came. Using good tactics and support, using defenders on the team as lures... they did an awesome job.
I got a pickup group together, and we got shellacked the first time we tried to knock them off the beach... and the second. The third time it devolved into a draw with people down on both sides.. and people hurt and both groups scattering to the winds for survival.
Then we took the beach.... then we gave it back. Heh.
It was a lot of fun, and though there was one instant of instakilling (defender lures tend to get hurt, when instead of luring one guy back they turn a corner and an entire group hits them at once), it was generally a tactical combat.
Which is what PvP SHOULD be.
What it's devolved into is people wandering around the zone on their own trying to gank people, and getting ganked and then coming to the boards to whine about getting ganked and to ask the devs to nerf the class that ganked them.
It's also involved to people camping the lobby of the hospital on the villain side in order to grief people and rack up cheap kills.
The second you came to the board to ask the devs to 'fix' the problem that you're to lazy to adjust your build for, you became part of the problem, so don't sit back and tsk tsk tsk like you're above it all.
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Snipes are already governed by Line of Sight so they're not as bad.
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This applies to AS as well. If you jump behind around the corner of a building, no AS.
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No [censored] Sherlock. But here's the thing... AS is a melee attack. Teleporting or Leaping 50 yards away while it's still interruptable, but being hit because there's still a line of Sight is the kind of crap you'd expect in magical fairies and hobbits and sharks with friggin lasers on their heads fantasy Land... It has no place in a game like this that is highly twitch based and goverened by Ragdoll Physics. ...Do you have any idea of the full collision detection potential that Ragdoll and CoH's superior AI programming could accomplish??? We're talking 9th Wonder of the World here. We should expect better. Infact combined with Placate, long-range AS is the biggest "I Win" Button any AT has ever had in PvP, beating out I4's Perma-Ellude Scrappers and Perma-Phaseshifters.
Infact#2, I already passed this issue onto Statesman and he in turn went through the trouble to reply back and tell me he was sending it to Castle. It doesn't seem like an issue that 'would make the engineers' heads explode' so no one here is to say it's "working as intended" or "going to stay that way" until the Devs get back to us on it. Capiche? (Not directed at BRod, but at everyone else who argues just for the sake of arguing)
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What are you suggesting here? Are you saying that in order to get off an AS, the target should have to stand still for 4 seconds?
I was merely stating that the same means of escaping an activated AS/snipe are the same. It doesn't matter if you are in melee range. You can get around the building 5 yards aways, AS will miss.
From my experience, I get a HELL of a lot less LOS interruptions on my sniping blasters. I don't see where the inconsistency is.
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Snipes are already governed by Line of Sight so they're not as bad.
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This applies to AS as well. If you jump behind around the corner of a building, no AS.
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No [censored] Sherlock. But here's the thing... AS is a melee attack. Teleporting or Leaping 50 yards away while it's still interruptable, but being hit because there's still a line of Sight is the kind of crap you'd expect in magical fairies and hobbits and sharks with friggin lasers on their heads fantasy Land... It has no place in a game like this that is highly twitch based and goverened by Ragdoll Physics. ...Do you have any idea of the full collision detection potential that Ragdoll and CoH's superior AI programming could accomplish??? We're talking 9th Wonder of the World here. We should expect better. Infact combined with Placate, long-range AS is the biggest "I Win" Button any AT has ever had in PvP, beating out I4's Perma-Ellude Scrappers and Perma-Phaseshifters.
Infact#2, I already passed this issue onto Statesman and he in turn went through the trouble to reply back and tell me he was sending it to Castle. It doesn't seem like an issue that 'would make the engineers' heads explode' so no one here is to say it's "working as intended" or "going to stay that way" until the Devs get back to us on it. Capiche? (Not directed at BRod, but at everyone else who argues just for the sake of arguing)
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Ok, so teleporting and jumping 50 yds are something that happens daily in your hometown? This game is a fantasy land. But if we go with the "reality" of the video game, why should a blasters attack be heat seeking and follow you all across the map.
This looks like a disguised "Nerf Stalkers!" post... Maybe it's just me.
This game needs Guitar Blast.
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If you hate stalkers so much why don't you get + perception powers. You don't go out in below zero weather butt naked then blame the weather because you got sick
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You're a dork, I don't hate stalkers, I play one. Sooner or later, they will change something...so lets enjoy it while we can.
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nice to see your level of intelligence has not gotten past kindergarden level, calling people dorks suits you very well.
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Yeah, I'm the one who thinks people "hate" other AT's (as if I couldn't make one too) and show "brilliant" ideas to counter AS
.......dork! 
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We're not saying that Stalkers should always lose, we just want a chance to fight back.
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You do have a chance to fight back...
... in fact you have the chance to fight back FIRST.
build up the perception bonuses needed to see through hide... snicker to yourself as the stalker 'sneaks' up on you... then blow him to smithereens.
Or is that not fair to him?
Stop your blathering, the weakness is not in the powers but in yourselves.
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Yes, my defender damage will surely make all stalkers shake in their boots!
Please hold still a minute while I kill you.
Quick question:
Is Caltrops + (Trip Mine * 3) a "One Shot" or is it 4 attacks?
I would call it 4 attacks. Caltrops is an auto-hit (also not really an attack, so to speak), but the 3 trip mines all need to make separate accuracy checks.
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Even if they were to just add a short "winding down" period of no more than one second at the end of a snipe or AS (or fixed how suppression doesn't work for them), then things would be fine.
It would sort of exclude them from normal attack chains, but those powers are rarely part of them anyway. I use my snipe in the middle of a battle all the time, but that's just me
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Again, another good idea. I'm sure you'll get some arguments on how leaving a player totally non-offensive for a brief time is a death sentence (especially for squishies).
Again though, there is a definition problem with one shotting. If you have a team of stalkers pulling AS's simultaneously, it really doesn't matter who the target is, they are going down, and FAST. No chance for retaliation there. Same is true of a few sniping blasters.
So is the issue really one shotting or dieing quickly without the chance for retaliatory action? It seems like the latter is really the issue being complained about. In all reality, I don't think there is any way, nor should there be, any way to counter good team work.
I just hope people just think about what it is that is really upsetting them. If you are upset about going down fast while you were fighting another target, that was just good teamwork on your opponents side.
I know I get railed sometimes by a good duo without being able to take any action. It's just a part of the game. Like I said before, there are ways around it though.