DarkPhoenix

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In all that I have said I hope one thing stands out. Every AT is diffrent...with diffrent merits and flaws. What one AT has for an advantage another may not. That is the exact reason for having the diffrent AT's. One will not be balance against another and I hope they never do.

One last thing, DarkPhoenix, do you have any thoughts on the body of my post or just that small small part of it?

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I agree with the overall sentiment of your post that every AT has their weakness and that when they team the fact that they complement each other (or at least your hope) makes up for whatever imbalance they have 1 vs 1. I just have a very hard time with your example since I don't think it's true.

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What I mean is that a defender needs to use extra powers which can miss as opposed to the brute who only needs to hit. I probably should not have said 'regardless of build or tactics' that implies they have no chance to overcome their difficulties.

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RI, EF, DN, tar patch, Hurricane, freezing rain,snow storm and all anchors and AOE powers don't miss still don't see what difficulties you are refering to since I have yet to see a brute take down a rad/dark/storm defender solo. Which brute attack do you know of that's auto hit.

Happy Bday Starsman very subtle avatar

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A defender has low health, low defences and low damage output. What they do have are the capacity to buff and heal others. To me this says they are made more for teaming. Knowing this, going solo into a PvP zone as a defender will leave you at a disadvantage reguardless of build or tactics.

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Are you serious the only one that applies to is empathy that's it. Rad, storm, dark, kin have damage that rival that of blasters thanks to their debuffing/buffing abilities they are not at a disvantage. The only people that are at a disadvantage is any poor sap that aims for them thinking they are easy prey. There is no way for my brute to take down dark, rad or storm, kin can be a mix bag. The only way to win is if I sneak on them that's right a brute sneaking on people. Your entire analysis is based on false propaganda I have played enough defenders to know this is very very false.

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For the record, if I could change my MA/Invuln Scrapper's secondary to /SR for PvP, I would in a heartbeat. I5 + I6 + all of the toggle dropping powers out there + crits bypassing resistance has pretty much obliterated Invuln as a PvP powerset. Be thankful that Stalker secondaries are defense-based and not resist-based.

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but inv is regeneration+resistance+defense, I am not saying I like it I absolutely hate it but that's the direction the devs have decided to take the set. Inv is superior to stalker def set because of the triple combination, although I wish they would do something about that health crash on unstoppable.

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As such the only rebuttal I need to offer is that I do not agree with you and that I have a different opinion on the matter.

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is that your way of saying it's best to agree to disagree

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I approached a lvl 52 Boss... He smacked me and began to reduce my HP at a phenominal rate... Then I double stacked Divine Avalanch for an additional 48% defense... Suddenly I could stand there all day and not worry about death.

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48% but wait what about invincibility you weren't surviving on that alone were you?

Ok let me give you a scenario a scrapper in a siren's call has 50% defense (that's assuming he is slotted defensively and has SO's). Tanker build up gives what 40% acc buff so the stalker now has 10% chance of not getting hit suddenly the odds don't look so favorable now do they. And that's not taking into account builds that have double build ups (fiery embrace + build up or Aim+build up, targeting drone) which trumps your entire secondary all together. Some of these powers last 10 seconds take a guess how long it will take for one player to execute a full attack chain then you understand the stalkers leannig towards running rather than fighting.

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Absolutely I can... when dull pain has already been used and I am down to 10% of my HP... it is not getting hit that is keeping me alive... not anything else.

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Dull pain regenerates you health so it's not gone per say and resistance is making you take less damage. unless you just play with just invincibility on you cannot say that the 90% that was taken away from your HP was mitigated with defense. [ QUOTE ]
if you would like me to go into the mathematics of it I would be happy to, but I really do not think it is necessary to make this post any lengthier than it already is.

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your first example used 100% defense versus 100% resistance but thats simply not the case when you take into account powers that trump defense all together and the fact that it's not 25% defense versus 25% resistance for scrappers. But you would also have to take into account utilities, difference in HP and several other variables such as stun, fear effects that cannot be quantified. Simple fact it is much easier to trump defense then resistance you can debate that all you want, but there are simply more then enough tools in either secondaries and primaries of AT to do the job. If the devs did not feel that way then they would not have changed PVP to help the defensive sets. I have yet to have any problems taking down an ice tank or SR scrapper though so you figure it out.

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You do not have to believe me, but on my invuln scrapper it is often his defense that saves me and not his resistance.

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you have defense, resistance and dull pain (plus HP plus health regen) you are not only relying on one mitigating factor there is no way you can say one for sure that defense is saving you. [ QUOTE ]
Let us assume there exists an AT that has 1000 HP... let us assume that the player in question then has the choice to select 90% resistance to all damage and zero defense... or 90% defense to all damage and zero resistance.

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you do know that the translation from def and resistance is not as clear cut as that which is the case states made when comparing lucks to sturdies. Because mobs and we have a default accuracy and accuracy boosting powers. The odds are dramatically worse when the other guy has AOE's.

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I am making that statement because I am working under the assumption that all scrapper sets are "roughly" equivalant in terms of survivability

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If it were so then defensive sets would not be viewed as problematic would they. You also have to take into account the difference in HP and utility certain sets such as (DA) stun and fear and multiple defense, (inv)def, resistance, health regen. [ QUOTE ]

Based upon that kind of thinking stalkers have much better damage as their criticals are reliable and scrapper criticals are a roll of the dice.

Mathematically it all evens out over time.

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are you assuming that they both have the same base damage. Stalkers BI is .9 while scrappers is 1.125, scrappers damage rivals brutes and blasters and their defense is enough to stand up to my DM and SS brute even with a full fury bar. I have lost many matches to scrappers and thats with me fully slotted with SO's, while they have np taking down scrappers, that's not taking into account primaries such as spine that cancel out AS or secondaries with auras that do the same.

The only defensive scrapper set is SR, 3 out of 4 stalker secondaries are def. How can you possibly make such a broad statement.

Download the latest version of hero planner no need to beat around the bushes build a stalker to level 30 and see for yourself. http://joechott.com/coh [ QUOTE ]
So far as buildup and aim go... those enhance damage as well, so resistance sets are equally effected... build-up adds 100% damage for scrappers and blasters and 80% damage for stalkers

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not in reality because if you are relying on defense you either dodge or die with resistance if you have some type of resistance to the damage you get some time to react (respites, lucks, +HP powers). Once your defense is trumped you have nothing to protect you and less breathing room to react.

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Blasters by comparison should see around 66% the survival of a Stalker who opts to slot out their defenses... should they choose to ignore their defenses, that is another story.

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blasters do more damage and 33% of their damage is unresistable, not to mention the fact that with EN and dev secondary they can toggle drop and tp foe into trip mines for an easy win. Also except for AR most blaster damage is non s/L which is another advantage while only EM has energy damage. I was not counting top tier powers but if you want to include them why not take into account blasters APP FON alone can cap resistance for a blaster. [ QUOTE ]
Taking all factors into account SR stalkers and scrappers function as if they ALWAYS have 1 luck running... plus they have elude and status protection to make their sets even more defensive than a squishy AT running that same single inspiration.


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I was not accounting for their top tier powers but if you want to include them you may as well include everyone else in the process. And there are other sets too you know like ninjitsu and EA. Stalkers get their top tier at level 38 so do you wish to take into account all the power and abilities other AT get by then as well?

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I dont understand what you're saying about BI. Are you saying Stalkers have higher BI than Blasters

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Scrappers have an Higher BI than blasters. [ QUOTE ]
So what if they have less HP than Scrappers? Thats the trade off for Hide, Placate and controlled crit

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less HP = less chance of survival you were arguing about their defense remember. [ QUOTE ]

If you really think you're squishy, I'd suggest that you try playing something with equivalent HP (say an Empath or Trick Arrow defender) but no defense, mez protection or stealth and see the difference.

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would a storm controller and a dark defender do, TA is recognized as the worst set I don't know what point you are trying to make and for the record you and I both know that emp is mostly a team build. Of course slap on a controller and you wouldn't know it. I just want to clarify I am refering to the any top tier powers since most of the PVP is done in siren's call this would be pre top tier powers. [ QUOTE ]
Defense can be overcome with Accuracy inspirations, this is true, but you can also up your defense with Lucks. And remember that in PvP zones base to hit is only 50%. If a Stalker has around 25% defense in PvE, then that defense is effectively being doubled in a PvP zone.

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yet when you take into account that most Heroes will have slotted for accuracy and Aim and build up can give you great accuracy it does not seem much now does it? As for inspirations take a guess which side has easier access to them and usually more influence and slots to carry and purchase them.

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Given that Stalkers have equivalent defensives to Scrappers (or in the case of some sets like Ninjutsu, trade defensive capability for utility and control) I really dont buy the line of thinking that a visible Stalker is somehow extremely vulnerable. A visible Stalker is not necessarily at the mecy of the person who can see them.

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most of the stalkers secondary are def roughly the equivalent of one luck and that's pushing it now take a guess how many builds have (build up, aim, targeting drone, rage or just plain accuracy inpiration) and how long it would take them to drop a stalker. Ninjitsu gets some cool toys but those toys are get me the hell out of here or set a trap tricks not stay and fight for long toys. I don't have a regen stalker so I am not sure how sturdy one is, scrappers on the other hand have two resistance sets one of which has major utility (dark armor). Also consider that stalkers have less HP than scrappers and an higher BI then even blasters, that also lowers their chance of survival you may not be buying it but it's the reality of it.

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Eliminate AS or reduce the damage by 1/2 even would make stalkers uneffective in pvp and even less effective solo in pve

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PVP changes don't have to effect PVE.

If the entire AT is "gimped" if a single power is nerfed/not taken, then the AT is broken.

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I agree with that statesment I have read some of your suggestion and think they would go a long way to make stalkers more balanced. But as it currently stands for most of the stalkers carreer AS is all that he really brings to the team or solo play. If that were to be taken away stalkers would basically be a watered down scrappers with a controllled critical.

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Oh? You mean there is a definite, absolute history of the etmology of the phrase "PvP not influencing PvE" for these boards? If there is, would you please do me the courtesy of citing it? And if not, could you please do us all the courtesy of not asserting your own ideal as the greater, better, truer meaning?

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These are phrase from the devs themselves that were first brought up when players were worried that PVP changes would ruin PVE. You can look at statesman and positron past quotes but I can paraphrase.

"PVP should not affect PVE however they are some case where PVP issues will play a part in PVE."

Whether or not they have held that to be true is debatable as I think many changes were purely PVP driven. I cringe everytime the dev make changes and say PVP was involved because simple reason being PVP is a sidedish. It's something to do when you are bored and want to kill time or goof around. I know there are hard core PVPers but they are the minority the kind of animosity (ganking, childish behavior, cursing) and nerf herding (see stalkers and the pvp threads) PVP brings makes it very unatractive to most. I know there are a few that don't participate in this kind of behavior but I can count with one hand how many i have met.

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(Aside: Yes someone could use Tactics etc, but as has been stated many times, PvP should not infulence PvE. It should not be necessary for any player to take a power or powerest in order to participate in PvP. If Tactics become essential, this is not the case.)

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that is a fallous argument, fire brutes that take acrobatics cannot take on flying blasters so they either have to take flight or TPFoe in order to deal with them by your reasoning that is wrong. What about the numerous blasters and controllers that have stealth and invis I am required to take +perception to see them so that is wrong by your analysis as well. There are too many things that simply are required in order to be competent against certain stratgies that just don't work in PVE. Do you really think the sudden popularity of TPfoe in PVP is because it's so good in PVE

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This is the one thing I currently dislike about the PvP zones at present, that you must constantly use your travel power to avoid the possibility of a Stalker creeping up behind you. It would be nice to be able to stand in one place and either take in the zone or fight without having to leap away after every few attacks.

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Sounds like you simply don't like to be caught off guard, if you haven't noticed that's the entire point of the AT. To catch you when you least expect it and take you down as fast as they can. I have a feeling that until stalkers are completly gimped unable to sneak on people or take them down no one will ever be really "happy" with them because of the nature of the AT.

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Not a huge PvPer here, but reading this thread certainly doesn't make me want to go visit these zones. Though the sightseer in me does want to visit and check things out. Maybe after I level up my stalker.....

Lots of interesting theoretical and experiantial arguments here. But game statistics should tell the story: IF an unusual percentage of CoVers in the PvP zones are stalkers, then there is probably something wrong. They are either too effective, or there are not enough useful powers to counteract them. The exact percentage is a decision, but this seems to mirror previous Cryptic behavior. AT sets that were incredibly popular were hit, and those that were taken by only the few concept die hards were buffed.

IF, over time the stalkers really constitute an unusual percentage of the PvP zone classes, something will be done about it.

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See Ice tanks, FF defenders, TA plenty of examples where being unpopular yet still get nerfed or not buffed at all.

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so let's start compiling a list because currently my brute has no chance of beating an controllers, /EN and /Dev blasters or any blasters in general that is stays out of range because my fire brute uses accrobatics for KB protection in PVE. I don't want to be forced to take certain powers or gimp myself in PVE in order to take blasters out. Count yourself lucky with + perception powers stalkers don't have a chance against you. There's no powerpool against, fear, confusion, slows or the fact that I lose all my toggles and get held by controllers without them breaking a sweat.

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Yeah but blasters and controllers aren't downing you in two shots though either. My scrapper that I normally PvP with has tactics by 30. If +perception meant you would be able to see hide+stealth stalkers in atleast melee range then you'd see a lot less complaints.

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No but they are taking down my HP while I either run or stay still and I get no chance to fight back, or I get stunned all lose two of my toggles and get beaten in 3 shots while disoriented. I thought it was about fairness, oh so now the complaint is with the +perception well that's easily fixed so why aren't threads popping up about perception being faulty.

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The thing is though, if you have SOs slotted compared to DOs or TOs then you should have an advantage. If you have more slots in all your powers than someone else, you should have an advantage. Stalkers seem to have the ability to totally nullify that advantage. I don't have a level 50 hero but if I went down to PvP I'd expect to lose, but should I expect to lose everytime to a specific class? I'd rather see stalker's alpha brought down some but them given some extra HPs maybe to blaster level, so that they could stick around a little longer.

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so let's start compiling a list because currently my brute has no chance of beating an controllers, /EN and /Dev blasters or any blasters in general that is stays out of range because my fire brute uses accrobatics for KB protection in PVE. I don't want to be forced to take certain powers or gimp myself in PVE in order to take blasters out. Count yourself lucky with + perception powers stalkers don't have a chance against you. There's no powerpool against, fear, confusion, slows or the fact that I lose all my toggles and get held by controllers without them breaking a sweat.

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Strange how nobody else is complaining about any of the other new CoV AT? Coincedience huh?

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Could it possibly be because from bloody bay to siren's call stalkers are the only ones that are taking down the mighty decked out level 50 Soed heroes with full inspirations trays

When my brute finally got SO's most heroes were like wow I never knew brutes hit so hard and that took me 25 levels of saving to do that I bought nothing not even a costume. My stalkers are still using DO's because I spend on them, let's face it most heroes are used to villains being easy prey. The odds are already in their favor (more of them, more slots, fully slotted SO's, more inspirations, temp powers more readily available), so they don't take too kindly to losing. I am not saying that's the entire issue but I have seen enough hero whinning on broadcast to know it's a major part of it. OMG I lost to X type villain you either A) must be cheating or B) your set is overpowered and people wonder why so many people hate PVP.

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Individual players having to build for PvP so that they can avoid being ganked will lead to a small PvP population. Most people aren't going to respec just to avoid being killed by a Stalker in PvP. Even if we all learned to build correctly for PvP so that Stalkers are seen routinely, this doesn't fix the problem. All it would do is make playing a Stalker in PvP no fun.

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/disagreed do you have any idea how many great builds in PVE simply don't work in PVP or vice versa. For example what would you suggest my fire brute do in order to deal with flying blasters that's right I have to pick up flight not only does that leave me with no immob protection but it is also very cubbersome in PVE. Stalkers take stealth that does absolutely nothing for them in PVE. What about having to take recall friend to deal with people constantly TPfoeing your teammates, or even worse having to take TP foe yourself to fight back. So this entire argument about having to take certain powerpools is moot, people are overlooking the big picture and using stalkers as scapegoats.

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If you hate stalkers so much why don't you get + perception powers. You don't go out in below zero weather butt naked then blame the weather because you got sick

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You're a dork, I don't hate stalkers, I play one. Sooner or later, they will change something...so lets enjoy it while we can.

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nice to see your level of intelligence has not gotten past kindergarden level, calling people dorks suits you very well.