One shotting has got to end
By
Acanous_Quietus,
Posted on: 2005-12-07 01:38 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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I think I'm in almost total agreement with you except that I think players knowing that there is even a small chance to respond is key. A good Stalker against a poor player should be able to 'gank' about 100% of the time. Against an average player? 80-90%. I don't believe that to be the case at this time. Player response should also put the Stalker at risk; those able to remove themselves from combat straight after an AS should either: Not get a kill or be at risk of serious harm.
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Then I'd like the chance to be able to respond to being slept, held, confused, taunted, sniped, ice patched, critted, and debuffed.
Deal?
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That's why we not have Break Frees instead of Disciplines. Because Disciplines were unable to be reactive and let you RESPOND to a status effect.
You can't RESPOND to a one shot.
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Correct, but you can PREVENT it from happening in the first place (for Stalkers).
You can't tell me otherwise because I've played against people of all ATs who've managed to avoid AS one way or another.
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Well, when they faced a similar problem with controllers, they converted the PREVENT inspiration to a RESPOND inspiration.
You can do the math from there.
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I think I'm in almost total agreement with you except that I think players knowing that there is even a small chance to respond is key. A good Stalker against a poor player should be able to 'gank' about 100% of the time. Against an average player? 80-90%. I don't believe that to be the case at this time. Player response should also put the Stalker at risk; those able to remove themselves from combat straight after an AS should either: Not get a kill or be at risk of serious harm.
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Then I'd like the chance to be able to respond to being slept, held, confused, taunted, sniped, ice patched, critted, and debuffed.
Deal?
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That's why we not have Break Frees instead of Disciplines. Because Disciplines were unable to be reactive and let you RESPOND to a status effect.
You can't RESPOND to a one shot.
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Correct, but you can PREVENT it from happening in the first place (for Stalkers).
You can't tell me otherwise because I've played against people of all ATs who've managed to avoid AS one way or another.
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Well, when they faced a similar problem with controllers, they converted the PREVENT inspiration to a RESPOND inspiration.
You can do the math from there.
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That was because magnitude of holds could trump the inspirations, thus making them useless.
I fail to see how seeing a Stalker before he/she even gets a chance to line you up somehow doesn't prevent you from being AS'd.
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Trick Question. The answer doesn't matter. It has the same psychological effect that a one-shot does.
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Bingo. This was exactly my point.
PvP is a very fine balance and there are a lot of ways to creatively combine powers for extreme effect. Assassin Attacks, while powerful, are only the most visable (irony?) example. There are others which are worse and whatever solution we come up with for 'The one shot problem' has to address as many variations as we can identify.
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I dont think 1 shots should be done away with, in fact I think that sniper attacks should be increased to match.
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Again - another post about responding to an attack. How about preventing it? There's more than enough tools out there to detect a Stalker.
This point seems to get ignored.
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As does this point.
Before the arena there was a perfectly good way to PREVENT a status effect. It was called the DISCIPLINE INSPIRATION.
For some reason, people did not seem to feel it was enough to be able to PREVENT that kind of attack in PVP, they wanted a way to RESPOND to it.
Thus we have break-frees. Which BOTH PREVENT AND REVERSE status effects.
If it's a sufficient solution to be able to PREVENT only, let's eliminate break-frees and turn them back into DISCIPLINES. Let's see how fun PVP is then.
If you find that untenable, perhapse you might explain how the situation is significantly different here?
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That was because magnitude of holds could trump the inspirations, thus making them useless.
I fail to see how seeing a Stalker before he/she even gets a chance to line you up somehow doesn't prevent you from being AS'd.
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Revolver_Law:
There are not that many tools to prevent a Stalker one-shot.
1) There are a tiny handful of auto-hit Aura powers. Five? Six? They are scattered across a number of ATs secondaries. If you weren't lucky enough to pick one of those ATs, you're just SOL on that front.
2) PBAOE powers. These not only have the same problem of availability that the auto-hit Aura powers do, but they also have to hit. Realistically, this is only going to happen against */Regen Stalkers. There are plenty of posts over on the Blaster Boards of people specifically testing Lightning Field with three (3) Single-Origin Accuracy Enhancements slotted and it still only hit a Defense Set (which comprise the other secondaries) Stalker 10% of the time. These are simply not a reliable defense, even if a person's AT has access to them. Most simply don't.
3) It requires not one +Perception power. Not two +Perception powers. It requies three +Perception powers to detect Stealth + Hide. This requires that a hero be lucky enough to have access to Glacial Shield (Ice/* Tankers), Minerals (Stone/* Tankers), Focused Senses (*/Super Reflexes Scrappers), Cloak of Shadows (*/Dark Armor Scrappers), Targetting Drone (*/Devices Blasters), or Shadow Cloak (Warshades); AND Tactics; AND buy IR Goggles. If you do not have access to one of the above powers, you're just SOL; as has been confirmed repeatedly, if you're not a Defender, Tactics and IR Goggles will not be enough to see a Stalker who's using Stealth + Hide at the same time.
A long time ago, the Developers said they did not want to "require" players to take any specific Power Pool power. These statements were made in the context of Hasten and Stamina, but this is really the same issue: if someone wants to engage in PvP, he or she will need to take Tactics if he or she is a hero. Furthermore, he or she will need to know several others who have also taken Tactics and/or he or she will have to lay down 10k Influence every 30 minutes to keep PvPing.
40062: The World's Worst PUG
84008: Jenkins's Guide to Super-Villainy
230187: The Hero of Kings Row
No H8 - 08.04.10
@Circuit Boy - Moderator - Pride global chat channel
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I think I'm in almost total agreement with you except that I think players knowing that there is even a small chance to respond is key. A good Stalker against a poor player should be able to 'gank' about 100% of the time. Against an average player? 80-90%. I don't believe that to be the case at this time. Player response should also put the Stalker at risk; those able to remove themselves from combat straight after an AS should either: Not get a kill or be at risk of serious harm.
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This is happening in WoW from the 1st day it come out,rogues can come to u stealthed,and get a Stun lock on u,u were dead in like 4 or 5 attack and u couldn't even move on that time,that is still happening now,that's the way that stealth a toon deal with things becouse on all the games they are week other wise,the diference is that in WoW (to make thigs whorse) any levels can enter a "contested area",so u could be killed for a player 40 levels over u,i don't think that u have to much time to react on that situation as well,at least on this game all players are at the same level on a given area.
Sorry for my spelling !!
You are forgetting one of the easiest ways to prevent a AS strike. Its also one of the the hardest learned lessons non-combat experience aviators in a war zone ever get...
KEEP MOVING!
If you don't move - you are just a target. And your probably dead. Its one of the reasons experience pilots have low attrition rates...
Also any aoe effect around you will interupt a strike - even if you don't see it coming..
PvP zones are WAR ZONES!
See him first...
set up defences...
keep moving - or your probably going to die...its the same in any PvP fight..Stand there - give THEM the initiative...expect to die...
LvL 50 Dark Dark, Emp/Rad Defenders
LvL 50 Inv/Axe, Fire/Fire, Stone/Stone, Mace/Shield Tanks, EM/Inv
LvL 50 Spines/DA Scrapper
LvL 50 Ice/Storm, Ice/Rad, Earth/Rad, 2 Fire/Kin, Ill/Rad, Grav/FF, Controller Elec/Storm
LvL 50 Bots/FF, Merc/Traps, MM Thugs/Traps, Demon/Thermal
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Trick Question. The answer doesn't matter. It has the same psychological effect that a one-shot does.
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Bingo. This was exactly my point.
PvP is a very fine balance and there are a lot of ways to creatively combine powers for extreme effect. Assassin Attacks, while powerful, are only the most visable (irony?) example. There are others which are worse and whatever solution we come up with for 'The one shot problem' has to address as many variations as we can identify.
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First of all for heroes, only /devices blasters (1 power set from 1 AT get this) can do the cited example.
Sorry but players are morons if they repeatedly run into a caltrops field and get trip mined. TP Foe hardly has a great range. Ive seen this happen a handful of times. I've seen stalkers 1-shot people 100+ times easy. Stalkers consist of 1 entire AT and are a huge population in PvP for villains.
Who wants to bet that 99.X% of all one-shots are by stalkers? The devs have this information, care to share? Thought not.
One-shoting by another ATs is extremely hard to do and requires teams, or massive amount of insp eating. Stalker can take powers in their primary and secondary and accomplish this easily solo. (No you don't need stealth as it has no effect on damage; it only makes the setup easier).
I find your statement that there are worse examples of one-shoting amusing. The player base (not forum base 
) is not stupid. If this was true word of it would quickly spread and we would see complaints and strategies quickly arise. Im sure there are ways to do so, but none are as easy to do as rolling a stalker.
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Revolver_Law:
There are not that many tools to prevent a Stalker one-shot.
1) There are a tiny handful of auto-hit Aura powers. Five? Six? They are scattered across a number of ATs secondaries. If you weren't lucky enough to pick one of those ATs, you're just SOL on that front.
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There's a post about this in the Stalker forums - there are plenty Aura powers - some of which Blasters have in their secondaries.
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2) PBAOE powers. These not only have the same problem of availability that the auto-hit Aura powers do, but they also have to hit. Realistically, this is only going to happen against */Regen Stalkers. There are plenty of posts over on the Blaster Boards of people specifically testing Lightning Field with three (3) Single-Origin Accuracy Enhancements slotted and it still only hit a Defense Set (which comprise the other secondaries) Stalker 10% of the time. These are simply not a reliable defense, even if a person's AT has access to them. Most simply don't.
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As I said in a previous post, these hit VERY often. I haven't had an instance where I wasn't hit.
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3) It requires not one +Perception power. Not two +Perception powers. It requies three +Perception powers to detect Stealth + Hide. This requires that a hero be lucky enough to have access to Glacial Shield (Ice/* Tankers), Minerals (Stone/* Tankers), Focused Senses (*/Super Reflexes Scrappers), Cloak of Shadows (*/Dark Armor Scrappers), Targetting Drone (*/Devices Blasters), or Shadow Cloak (Warshades); AND Tactics; AND buy IR Goggles. If you do not have access to one of the above powers, you're just SOL; as has been confirmed repeatedly, if you're not a Defender, Tactics and IR Goggles will not be enough to see a Stalker who's using Stealth + Hide at the same time.
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Actually I run Hide and Stealth and can be seen by a Scrapper/Tank with only IR, a Dev Blaster with only Targetting Drone, Trollers/Defenders with Tactics+IR.
So it doesn't take three powers.
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A long time ago, the Developers said they did not want to "require" players to take any specific Power Pool power. These statements were made in the context of Hasten and Stamina, but this is really the same issue: if someone wants to engage in PvP, he or she will need to take Tactics if he or she is a hero. Furthermore, he or she will need to know several others who have also taken Tactics and/or he or she will have to lay down 10k Influence every 30 minutes to keep PvPing.
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We both know that's BS. If that were true I wouldn't have to take TP Foe to make my main somewhat useful in PvP (which I refuse to do). It's a nice thought, but you and I both know it's just lip service.
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That was because magnitude of holds could trump the inspirations, thus making them useless.
I fail to see how seeing a Stalker before he/she even gets a chance to line you up somehow doesn't prevent you from being AS'd.
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Stack enough Disciplines and the magnitudes of the holds could not trump them.
Stack enough Insights and the stregnth of the stealth cannot trump them.
I was asking how the situations were DIFFERENT.
They're not, so why shouldn't we get a way to RESPOND to a stealth snipe the way we can now RESPOND to a status?
you do get an inspiration to respond to an AS attack . . . . its called an awaken 
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That was because magnitude of holds could trump the inspirations, thus making them useless.
I fail to see how seeing a Stalker before he/she even gets a chance to line you up somehow doesn't prevent you from being AS'd.
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Stack enough Disciplines and the magnitudes of the holds could not trump them.
Stack enough Insights and the stregnth of the stealth cannot trump them.
I was asking how the situations were DIFFERENT.
They're not, so why shouldn't we get a way to RESPOND to a stealth snipe the way we can now RESPOND to a status?
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I don't think the +perception from insights stack with each other.
I saw a tanker do almost 300 damage with a single attack in Siren's Call.
I've heard a lot of people say Tankers do "poor damage" in comparison to Scrappers and Blasters.
Revolver_Law:
There's only one Blaster auto-hit Aura power: Chilling Embrace. No others. Sorry, Charlie, but you're wrong on that point.
Second, read this thread about Lightning Field in PvP (link). That should more than adequately put to rest your claim that these "hit VERY often". They don't. Without Aim or Build-Up, it's going to be around 10%. I don't know about you, but that's not "VERY often" to me.
Third, _Castle_ posted here (Click Link):
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You are a Scrapper, no? Probably, these two powers [IR Goggles and Tactics] will not allow you to see a Hide+Stealth Stalker, *if* the Tactics is your power. Looking at the math, we can see the following:
IR Goggles give a straight 15% bonus to perception range, 50% of the time (checked every 10 seconds.)
Tactics gives a base 20% bonus, modified by your AT Type and your level. Assuming level 35, that gives you perception of ~775 ft. If you were a Defender, the value would be ~930 ft. A level 35 Stalker with Hide and Stealth has a Stealth radius of ~900 ft. That means a Defender could see the Stalker at ~30ft while the Scrapper cannot see them.
Edit: The above numbers assume the Scrapper and Defender are the power users. If the Defender has the Tactics, then both use the Defender value, while if the Scrapper has the Tactics, both use the Scrapper value. [emphasis mine]
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Unless _Castle_ is mistaken, you should not be seen by Tankers/Scrappers using just IR Goggles or Controllers with IR Goggles & Tactics. Perhaps _Castle_ was mistaken?
40062: The World's Worst PUG
84008: Jenkins's Guide to Super-Villainy
230187: The Hero of Kings Row
No H8 - 08.04.10
@Circuit Boy - Moderator - Pride global chat channel
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That was because magnitude of holds could trump the inspirations, thus making them useless.
I fail to see how seeing a Stalker before he/she even gets a chance to line you up somehow doesn't prevent you from being AS'd.
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Stack enough Disciplines and the magnitudes of the holds could not trump them.
Stack enough Insights and the stregnth of the stealth cannot trump them.
I was asking how the situations were DIFFERENT.
They're not, so why shouldn't we get a way to RESPOND to a stealth snipe the way we can now RESPOND to a status?
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Situations are different. Any build can get +perception powers to help detect a Stalker. You can't say the same about holds.
My favorite AT is the Blaster, fully capable of being one-shotted by a lot of things, yet don't complain about it if there is something I can do to prevent it. I can prevent being AS'd on every single one of my Blasters (three total). I can also prevent it on my Rad/Rad Defender, another one of my toons who can be one-shotted.
For one thing most of the time AS doesn't 1 shot kill usually has to be followed by something to finish the guy off and there is no 1 shot killing a Tanker or a Brute.
And a Stalker has to "Stalk" his prey and wait for the oppertune moment to strike, you don't relize how hard it is to keep people still in order to even execute the attack so we have to put more work into it then you may see.
And people can see us in pvp even with stealth.
AS is a big endurence drain if you have to toggle it more than once in order to try to get it to execute so by time one locks a stalker may have no endurence to fight back with.
In the long run any class has it's weaknesses and has its strengths.
Whether the +perception from inspirations stacks or not is irrelevant... you can't realistically run around with multiple Insights active all the time. They don't last long enough. Unless you want to keep running back and buying more Insights every 3 minutes...
Cascade, level 50 Blaster (NRG/NRG since before it was cool)
Mechmeister, level 50 Bots / Traps MM
FAR too many non-50 alts to name
[u]Arcs[u]
The Scavenger Hunt: 187076
The Instant Lair Delivery Service: 206636
It might be hard to find the right moment, but you're in relative safety the entire time.
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you do get an inspiration to respond to an AS attack . . . . its called an awaken
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LOL. Cute. Funny. Unless it can allow you to be on the offensive within 1 second, not really a solution.
<<There are others which are worse and whatever solution we come up with for 'The one shot problem' has to address as many variations as we can identify. >>
Why not apply whatever reasoning was used to remove one shot endurence drain from pvp?
Or one shot blaster nuke from instantly killing players?
Sorry i must dissent. Please, lets not sit here and say AS is the first time the "one shot" issue has come up. 2nd, do not lump the AS situation with others, claiming that all one shot situations can be alleviated by the same bandaid. Why?
Honestly, if you nerf or tank AS damage, what good are the stalkers going to be? Let's face it, they aren't exactly an AT that can go deep into the bench. You will end up with a similar situation as end drain...an utterly useless pvp power that has a great disparity from its pve counterpart, forcing those players to pick between a pvecentric build and pvpcentric build.
Castle, please do not make the same mistake that was made with end drain.
Nerf Blaster Controllers!!!!
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That was because magnitude of holds could trump the inspirations, thus making them useless.
I fail to see how seeing a Stalker before he/she even gets a chance to line you up somehow doesn't prevent you from being AS'd.
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Stack enough Disciplines and the magnitudes of the holds could not trump them.
Stack enough Insights and the stregnth of the stealth cannot trump them.
I was asking how the situations were DIFFERENT.
They're not, so why shouldn't we get a way to RESPOND to a stealth snipe the way we can now RESPOND to a status?
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Situations are different. Any build can get +perception powers to help detect a Stalker. You can't say the same about holds.
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I could swear there were some mez protection powers in the power pools. I could swear there were some mez protections in the shared pools. I guess I eas wrong, since some builds apparently cannot get mez protection.
Hear-hear, Million!
Let me alter the last statement slightly:
"_Castle_, please undo the mistake that was made with Endurance Drain."
Pilcrow:
Combat Jumping will mitigate against Immobilization. Acrobatics will mitigate against Holds. The protections on both are fairly weak, but better than zip. This is why a lot of Blasters take the Leaping Power Pool--I didn't, but I know why others did.
Also, Health will reduce the duration of Sleep effects (though it won't prevent them), and certain powers out of the Medicine Power Pool have effects, though I've largely forgotten what they are. (Aid Self will reduce Disorient Duration, right?)
40062: The World's Worst PUG
84008: Jenkins's Guide to Super-Villainy
230187: The Hero of Kings Row
No H8 - 08.04.10
@Circuit Boy - Moderator - Pride global chat channel
Its silly, the only people who want the one shotting to stay is stalkers and scrappers. PvP is pointless if all you do is get attacked from behind by some sissy assasain strike bull, and i hope states nerfs the hell out of ya'
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_Castle_:
With all due respect, this seems to be a semantic game to avoid dealing with some of the realities of PvP.
As my post regarding Siren's Call demonstrates, with Build-Up and one (1) Enrage, Stalkers can easily one-shot Controllers, Defenders, Peacebringers (Human/Nova), and Warshades (Human/Nova).
Furthermore, Trip Mine is only available to certain secondary powersets (Blasters' */Devices, Masterminds' */Traps, and Corruptors' */Traps, I believe). Not every Blaster, Mastermind, or Corruptor even has access to the power.
Every single Stalker has Assassin's Strike or some variation of it, however.
It's not a "Trick Question" as it is a "Red Herring" to distract away from the issue of the easy Stalker one-shot kill.
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Again - another post about responding to an attack. How about preventing it? There's more than enough tools out there to detect a Stalker.
This point seems to get ignored.