One shotting has got to end
By
Acanous_Quietus,
Posted on: 2005-12-07 01:38 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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I sometimes think it's funny when the Stalker comment on how whiny everyone is. They should read some of their own posts sometimes.
In the end, everyone is whiny except possibly defenders, who don't count because they largely get ignored.
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OK, literally LOL'd on this one. Almost a ROFL, but my floor is pretty dirty and I stopped myself.
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There should be no attack in the game other than Nukes, that should do more than 75% of a squishies health, period. This game will be a better place.
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Also....a nuke is an AOE attack. It can attack tons of people at once. Why the hell should it be the only attack capable of doing serious damage?
THAT would be unbalanced!
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Hear-hear, Million!
Let me alter the last statement slightly:
"_Castle_, please undo the mistake that was made with Endurance Drain."
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???? Soooo.... In other words....
"Gimme my super ability back"
Soooo.... You nerf herd stalkers because somebody nerfed your power set? If end drain makes a comeback, something I would support, you'll sit down and shut up about Stalkers?
Didnt think so... Let the crusade continue as scheduled...
RachelRiley:
No, I just want consistency. If Endurance Drain is "overpowered for PvP", then so is one-shot killing people.
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No H8 - 08.04.10
@Circuit Boy - Moderator - Pride global chat channel
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Quick question:
Is Caltrops + (Trip Mine * 3) a "One Shot" or is it 4 attacks?
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well lets compair AS and Trip Mines really quick...
AS- 15 sec recharge with a 4 sec activation, dose not seam to supress travel powers, can be used in the air, it travels with you and can get anyone if you can get close enuff witch is not hard with hide+stealth combo
Trip Mines - 10.18 recharge (with 3 50++ recharge SO) 4 sec activation time, takes 4-5 and on average to kill some one so thats 56.72sec (if you only put down 4) that anyone even a stalker could sneak up on you while your putting them down, cant be used in the air, only 2 ways for it to work for you 1: TP people onto them if they get close enuff 2: get lucky some poor person jumps on them
now i'm NOT saying AS should be nurfed just saying bad power to compair it to
Personaly rather not see AS change but the whole stealth stacking thing to go away
yes know i cant spell ;p
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Its silly, the only people who want the one shotting to stay is stalkers and scrappers. PvP is pointless if all you do is get attacked from behind by some sissy assasain strike bull, and i hope states nerfs the hell out of ya'
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It's funny how an entirely inclusive statement such as "the only..." or "all..." are RARELY accurate.
I'm a blaster, I'm a stalker. I want one-shotting to stay.
If my blaster can NOVA and one-hit kill people and be vulnerable afterwards... So should my stalker. Difference is that my blaster requires ONE power to do it without insp., and my stalker requires two.
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Its silly, the only people who want the one shotting to stay is stalkers and scrappers. PvP is pointless if all you do is get attacked from behind by some sissy assasain strike bull, and i hope states nerfs the hell out of ya'
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It's funny how an entirely inclusive statement such as "the only..." or "all..." are RARELY accurate.
I'm a blaster, I'm a stalker. I want one-shotting to stay.
If my blaster can NOVA and one-hit kill people and be vulnerable afterwards... So should my stalker. Difference is that my blaster requires ONE power to do it without insp., and my stalker requires two.
[/ QUOTE ]If AA drained all your endurance...then I don't think you'd see this discussion. 
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Trick Question. The answer doesn't matter. It has the same psychological effect that a one-shot does.
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Bingo. This was exactly my point.
PvP is a very fine balance and there are a lot of ways to creatively combine powers for extreme effect. Assassin Attacks, while powerful, are only the most visable (irony?) example. There are others which are worse and whatever solution we come up with for 'The one shot problem' has to address as many variations as we can identify.
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(sorry this isn't more eloquently stated)
IMHO the most important issue is very much the nature of Teleport Foe. If someone takes a group of four damage-dealers who all have "their supreme nuke powers" and they all gang up on me it is very different from one person sitting on a building further away than my computer seems happy to render them and then making me suddenly appear somewhere I would be subject to a rapid demise (no matter what the source of that demise may be).
I don't have the fastest computer in the world, and I've been successful in PvP, but my screen hangs for sometimes several secconds before I even see that I've been teleported. Because of issues with my computer's performance I have "Promt Teleport" turned on in PvE, but that's not possible for PvP. Most of the time this gives them time to faceplant me even if they're doing a very bad job of it.
So for the sake of argument consider if my computer's specs should be seen as a one-shot. My computer's specs make it so that I experience slowdown that makes it possible to overwhelm me before I can react. By the concensus's definition that makes it a one-shot, but it clearly isn't. It's the "reasonableness" as the Supreme Court often says, that draws the line. So what's resonable?
In my opinion it is reasonable to take time planning an attack that has a good chance of defeating an opponent, but not reasonable to have a "one-shot button". Currently, Teleport Foe is not only the most glaring example of this, but also the most likley to be used somehow for greifing (also consider that TP Foe tactics are reacted to much in the same way that greifing is).
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Trick Question. The answer doesn't matter. It has the same psychological effect that a one-shot does.
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Bingo. This was exactly my point.
PvP is a very fine balance and there are a lot of ways to creatively combine powers for extreme effect. Assassin Attacks, while powerful, are only the most visable (irony?) example. There are others which are worse and whatever solution we come up with for 'The one shot problem' has to address as many variations as we can identify.
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(sorry this isn't more eloquently stated)
IMHO the most important issue is very much the nature of Teleport Foe. If someone takes a group of four damage-dealers who all have "their supreme nuke powers" and they all gang up on me it is very different from one person sitting on a building further away than my computer seems happy to render them and then making me suddenly appear somewhere I would be subject to a rapid demise (no matter what the source of that demise may be).
I don't have the fastest computer in the world, and I've been successful in PvP, but my screen hangs for sometimes several secconds before I even see that I've been teleported. Because of issues with my computer's performance I have "Promt Teleport" turned on in PvE, but that's not possible for PvP. Most of the time this gives them time to faceplant me even if they're doing a very bad job of it.
So for the sake of argument consider if my computer's specs should be seen as a one-shot. My computer's specs make it so that I experience slowdown that makes it possible to overwhelm me before I can react. By the concensus's definition that makes it a one-shot, but it clearly isn't. It's the "reasonableness" as the Supreme Court often says, that draws the line. So what's resonable?
In my opinion it is reasonable to take time planning an attack that has a good chance of defeating an opponent, but not reasonable to have a "one-shot button". Currently, Teleport Foe is not only the most glaring example of this, but also the most likley to be used somehow for greifing (also consider that TP Foe tactics are reacted to much in the same way that greifing is).
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So, What bearing does this have on the topic at hand?
Your really talking about how your PC is old and aniquated and shop be upgraded???
I don't have TP foe in my spec but just curious on what bearing this has to do with the subject at hand??
If your PC's that bad you should considering upgrading it as a solution and is not an overall issue of the game.
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PvP is a very fine balance and there are a lot of ways to creatively combine powers for extreme effect. Assassin Attacks, while powerful, are only the most visable (irony?) example. There are others which are worse and whatever solution we come up with for 'The one shot problem' has to address as many variations as we can identify.
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Do you see? Getting one shot is not just within the powers of stalkers. Many other ATs can effectively one shot certain other ATs.
Unless you really really really want another round of reduced damage across the board, I suggest getting the sets you like to play get looked into for possible buffs not try to bring down others.
Like I said in another post. If the dev lessen AS then there are a slew of other things that will have to be addressed aswell. I thought it would just be with buffing Stalker defense and critical ability but as _Castle_ eluded to it seems other possibilities for getting one shot would have to be dealt with.
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That was because magnitude of holds could trump the inspirations, thus making them useless.
I fail to see how seeing a Stalker before he/she even gets a chance to line you up somehow doesn't prevent you from being AS'd.
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Stack enough Disciplines and the magnitudes of the holds could not trump them.
Stack enough Insights and the stregnth of the stealth cannot trump them.
I was asking how the situations were DIFFERENT.
They're not, so why shouldn't we get a way to RESPOND to a stealth snipe the way we can now RESPOND to a status?
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Situations are different. Any build can get +perception powers to help detect a Stalker. You can't say the same about holds.
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I could swear there were some mez protection powers in the power pools. I could swear there were some mez protections in the shared pools. I guess I eas wrong, since some builds apparently cannot get mez protection.
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Acrobatics. One mez.
Tactics, one of many +perception powers available to avoid Stalkers.
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Trick Question. The answer doesn't matter. It has the same psychological effect that a one-shot does.
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Bingo. This was exactly my point.
PvP is a very fine balance and there are a lot of ways to creatively combine powers for extreme effect. Assassin Attacks, while powerful, are only the most visable (irony?) example. There are others which are worse and whatever solution we come up with for 'The one shot problem' has to address as many variations as we can identify.
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Simple enough, but the programming may be hard. Make it so you can't take more than 99% of your health in damage in any 1 second period. (PvP only I would say, though I know lots of squishies would enjoy this in PvE, and being one shotted there is just as unfun.)
That prevents one hit kills, any number of trip mines, etc, since any number of attacks won't "one-shot" you. It requires sustained attacks.
From TrackStar:
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Its silly, the only people who want the one shotting to stay is stalkers and scrappers. PvP is pointless if all you do is get attacked from behind by some sissy assasain strike bull, and i hope states nerfs the hell out of ya'
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My main is a Blaster. Blasters are my favorite AT. I get one shotted constantly. I have zero problems with "one-shotting" as long as it can be prevented.
Assassination Strike can be prevented.
BTW, don't let the sig fool ya, I play every AT except for Brutes and Controllers and am fully capable of avoiding AS with all of them and I don't build for PvP.
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There should be no attack in the game other than Nukes, that should do more than 75% of a squishies health, period.
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I'd just like to note that a certain number of people out there are huge fans of declarative sentences that end with ", period." or "- period.".
It immediately convinces some to believe... the contrary view.
It inspires certain readers to read on... no further.
It makes some people seriously consider the poster's point... and seriously consider putting him/her on ignore.
Honestly, what declarative sentence couldn't be improved by putting two periods at the end? Hmm? I'm sure our blind friends who read the forums in braille agree.
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That was because magnitude of holds could trump the inspirations, thus making them useless.
I fail to see how seeing a Stalker before he/she even gets a chance to line you up somehow doesn't prevent you from being AS'd.
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Stack enough Disciplines and the magnitudes of the holds could not trump them.
Stack enough Insights and the stregnth of the stealth cannot trump them.
I was asking how the situations were DIFFERENT.
They're not, so why shouldn't we get a way to RESPOND to a stealth snipe the way we can now RESPOND to a status?
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Just because it happened to work that way before doesn't mean it has to again. It is possible that the solution found in the end for that issue isn't appropriate, or desired, for this supposed issue. I suppose it comes down to "Just because we did it that way in the past doesn't mean we need to do it that way every time in the future".
I fail to see how a comparison can be drawn betwen a character who is typically easy to see and a character whose major ability is stealth or remaining hidden. There is no parallel between a controller coming up and holding you and a stalker sneaking up for an AS.
And, as pointed out before, there are ways to spot the stalker now, where before you could not stop the controller. There are powers you can use to see the stalker, which eliminates his advantage. There are aura powers that can reveal him. There was no way to stop a hold or break out prior to the inspirations.
I'm still not sure why this is seen as an auto win situation. I've had my defenders live through several AS or attempted AS.
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There should be no attack in the game other than Nukes, that should do more than 75% of a squishies health, period. This game will be a better place.
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Also....a nuke is an AOE attack. It can attack tons of people at once. Why the hell should it be the only attack capable of doing serious damage?
THAT would be unbalanced!
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Blasters dont have stacked stealth, blasters lose all end after a nuke. Nukes have hella-long recharge rates. Whats the down fall to using AS? Maybe that will solve the problem...after a successful AS maybe stalkers should lose all end. Would you like that? I think not.
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There should be no attack in the game other than Nukes, that should do more than 75% of a squishies health, period. This game will be a better place.
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Also....a nuke is an AOE attack. It can attack tons of people at once. Why the hell should it be the only attack capable of doing serious damage?
THAT would be unbalanced!
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Blasters dont have stacked stealth, blasters lose all end after a nuke. Whats the down fall to using AS? Maybe that will solve the problem...after a successful AS maybe stalkers should lose all end. Would you like that? I think not.
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A pbaoe extreme damage (on a Blaster scale) attack power needs to drain all end. That's always been fair IMO.
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Trick Question. The answer doesn't matter. It has the same psychological effect that a one-shot does.
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Bingo. This was exactly my point.
PvP is a very fine balance and there are a lot of ways to creatively combine powers for extreme effect. Assassin Attacks, while powerful, are only the most visable (irony?) example. There are others which are worse and whatever solution we come up with for 'The one shot problem' has to address as many variations as we can identify.
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I submit...it is not the one-shot that is the problem, it is the feeling that one cannot avoid the one shot and the constant annoyance of reoccuring attempts. I have no issue with running up to a blaster and getting killed by all the mines he or she has laid down. I'd have a problem if that blaster could use an "invisible hand" and get me from anywhere on the map....and there were ridiculously few powers or ways to stop it.
I don't have a problem if I see a brute teamed with three Kinetics Corruptors ...who fire Fulcrum Shift...and I get one shot.
While in Siren's, I get TP Foe'd into a throng of MM's with Tar Patch and minions ..good for them. I saw where they set up and stayed out of range.
But getting one-shot when you can't see the target...or knowing that if the one-shot misses, you still won't be able to defeat the target is not "Fun" (tm) for anyone but the person doing the killing.
It's fun to fight Stalkers who can one-shot me...provided that I can see them...and have an opportunity to stop the one shot...even when I don't succeed and still get one-shotted.
But the inviso + one-shotting + escaping feels like griefing = not Fun.
I am curious why Stalkers can one-shot squishies...but squishies can't one-shot stalkers? Wouldn't that be a fair trade off for PvP?....risk=reward?
As you point out...trying to stop "one-shotting" is a like chasing your tail. There is no functional difference between getting one-shotted versus ten shotted if you feel like you have no recourse in either situation.
However, I have never heard people on my team complain, not even squishies, when they get one-shotted by monsters or AV's. We know where the threat is, we elected to fight that threat, we know that we could have avoided it by staying out of range, popping Lucks before we engaged, or calling for extra teammates. So the it becomes evident that the problem is not the one-shot...it is the events surrounding that experience.
Trick Question: Why not put Stealth + Hide mobs with Assassin Strike in CoH PvE missions?
So why is it suddenly "fun" for players to be exposed to that in PvP?
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I agree with you 100%. But I guarrantee no stalker advocates will even challenge your post, they only prey on the squishies......errrr, the weak.
My question simply pertains to: "Why shouldn't a build matter in PvP?", or rather maybe it should be "why shouldn't it make a difference in PvP?". Perhaps I misunderstood, but the build should truly matter in PvP, as it should in PvE, as it should in any situation regarding any type of conflict.
Being prepared is important regardless of the situation. Someone who has spent the time optimizing for PvP/PvE/whatever should *always* (read: more often than not) dominate over someone who is not specialized in the given situation. A person who has given no thought about fighting other humans should be aware of the dangers in a PvP area because it is entirely different from fighting monsters. (Though some could argue that humans make better "monsters" 
) It is simply that they are not prepared for the given situation, some builds will inherently be better in some situations as opposed to others, this will and should always be true. In my opinion thats why AT's were devbelpoed in the first place so that everyone could have their role to play.
Another thing, I love when these stalkers tell us "your in a pvp zone, JUST KEEP MOVING!" Hogwash. Moving thru zone has pitfalls, ledges, and other obstacles that ppl get stuck on. Sometimes thats all a stalker needs to pull off an AS. Not to mention ppl get stuck in animations that would give stalkers a window of opportunity. So do give me that "keep moving" crap.
I've come to the conclusion that it's not the actual one-shotting at all. Sadly, I think it's a plain lack of effort. I play in Siren's everyday, seeing different heroes everyday - 65% of whom can see me just fine, the other 35% get IR goggles very quickly.
I'm honestly done arguing the point that Stalkers can be seen by anybody because it's obvious nobody wants to accept that even though you can go to any PvP zone and see plenty of people chasing Stalkers around.
BTW, I can't wait to see the complaining when villains start to take control of PvP zones and heroes get a taste of what these zones are like without the IR goggles. Most people who play mainly villains are laughing at how heroes (at least on the forums) don't appreciate how powerful that one temp power is right now.
Illu Troller: OMG!!! NO FAIR! He can use the IR goggles+Tactics and see through my Superior Invis! That's not fair!
I guarantee this will happen.
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Another thing, I love when these stalkers tell us "your in a pvp zone, JUST KEEP MOVING!" Hogwash. Moving thru zone has pitfalls, ledges, and other obstacles that ppl get stuck on. Sometimes thats all a stalker needs to pull off an AS. Not to mention ppl get stuck in animations that would give stalkers a window of opportunity. So do give me that "keep moving" crap.
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Yes. Everybody but Stalkers lag. It's true, it's true.
K. Done now. Have fun all.
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For one thing most of the time AS doesn't 1 shot kill usually has to be followed by something to finish the guy off and there is no 1 shot killing a Tanker or a Brute.
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AS can consistantly one shot kill Defenders and Controllers, among others. Its fairly easy to observe in an evening in Siren's Call.
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And a Stalker has to "Stalk" his prey and wait for the oppertune moment to strike, you don't relize how hard it is to keep people still in order to even execute the attack so we have to put more work into it then you may see.
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So, you have to pursue someone to set up your attack? So what? Every other AT has to do the same thing. Those ATs dont get to do it in near total safety from anyone without a build spefically built to counter their AT either. Try playing other ATs in PvP. You'll have to "stalk" and pursue foes just as much, if not more than a Stalker does. Try it without stealth too, and you may realize that pursuing a foe is hardly unique to Stalkers. Its a basic part of PvP that every AT and build has to engage in. All ATs have to pursue someone and set up an attack. Some have to close to melee range to do it, some dont. Even some melee builds dont have to close to melee range to begin combat.
EDIT: bbcode
Heroes
Dysmal
Lumynous
Sam Steele
Pluck
Wile
Slagheap
Pressure Wave
Rhiannon Bel
Verified
Stellaric
Syd Mallorn
Villains
Jotunheim Skald
Saer Maen
Jen Corbae
Illuminance
Venator Arawn
Taiga Dryad
Tarranos
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Illu Troller: OMG!!! NO FAIR! He can use the IR goggles+Tactics and see through my Superior Invis! That's not fair!
I guarantee this will happen.
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I can guarantee it wont.
Villains took Siren's a few times on Virtue.
No IR goggles in the villain store.
Heroes
Dysmal
Lumynous
Sam Steele
Pluck
Wile
Slagheap
Pressure Wave
Rhiannon Bel
Verified
Stellaric
Syd Mallorn
Villains
Jotunheim Skald
Saer Maen
Jen Corbae
Illuminance
Venator Arawn
Taiga Dryad
Tarranos
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Trick Question. The answer doesn't matter. It has the same psychological effect that a one-shot does.
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Bingo. This was exactly my point.
PvP is a very fine balance and there are a lot of ways to creatively combine powers for extreme effect. Assassin Attacks, while powerful, are only the most visable (irony?) example. There are others which are worse and whatever solution we come up with for 'The one shot problem' has to address as many variations as we can identify.
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I submit...it is not the one-shot that is the problem, it is the feeling that one cannot avoid the one shot and the constant annoyance of reoccuring attempts. I have no issue with running up to a blaster and getting killed by all the mines he or she has laid down. I'd have a problem if that blaster could use an "invisible hand" and get me from anywhere on the map....and there were ridiculously few powers or ways to stop it.
I don't have a problem if I see a brute teamed with three Kinetics Corruptors ...who fire Fulcrum Shift...and I get one shot.
While in Siren's, I get TP Foe'd into a throng of MM's with Tar Patch and minions ..good for them. I saw where they set up and stayed out of range.
But getting one-shot when you can't see the target...or knowing that if the one-shot misses, you still won't be able to defeat the target is not "Fun" (tm) for anyone but the person doing the killing.
It's fun to fight Stalkers who can one-shot me...provided that I can see them...and have an opportunity to stop the one shot...even when I don't succeed and still get one-shotted.
But the inviso + one-shotting + escaping feels like griefing = not Fun.
I am curious why Stalkers can one-shot squishies...but squishies can't one-shot stalkers? Wouldn't that be a fair trade off for PvP?....risk=reward?
As you point out...trying to stop "one-shotting" is a like chasing your tail. There is no functional difference between getting one-shotted versus ten shotted if you feel like you have no recourse in either situation.
However, I have never heard people on my team complain, not even squishies, when they get one-shotted by monsters or AV's. We know where the threat is, we elected to fight that threat, we know that we could have avoided it by staying out of range, popping Lucks before we engaged, or calling for extra teammates. So the it becomes evident that the problem is not the one-shot...it is the events surrounding that experience.
Trick Question: Why not put Stealth + Hide mobs with Assassin Strike in CoH PvE missions?
So why is it suddenly "fun" for players to be exposed to that in PvP?