TJ_Solomon

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I think that each skill should've been evaluated instead of just carte blanche nerfed.

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I really agree with this.

In blaster sets, Elec Manip and Energy Melee get toggle drops that have mezzes attached which adds the chance of having the target mezzed with all toggles dropped, while other sets don't have such a good secondary chance.
The tog droppers that don't have attached chance for mezzing should have a higher chance to drop toggles then attacks with attached chance to mezz.

Also, in the /Devices line which power has the 64% chance to drop a toggle Trip Mine or Time bomb?

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Did it nerf them, or did it put them on a powerlevel par with the rest of the world?

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Depends which tank set you are speaking of.
ED didn't treat all sets equally.
A set that has passives which were mostly effective when 6 slotted such as the ones in INV got the shaft. While sets like Ice that have a defensive power like Energy Absortion that already had diversified slotting didnt get bothered by ED and in fact is doing great after a handful of number buffs for ICE.
While INV continued its downward spiral in useful PVP Tank sets.

INV is not onpar with in the pvp system of COH for Tanks, scraps, or brutes.

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Energy is good, but doesn't really need Barrage, Energy Punch or Total Focus


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Energy is great...but barrage is not in the EM blaster line.

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Devices works well, though not particularly fast.

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Devices can be very dynamic and quick if the tools used are Web Grenade, Caltrops, and Targeting Drone. If playing a TP Miner, the set will seem very slow.
With the dynamic route blasts like Elec, Ice, and Fire shine with Web Grenade.

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The others need to drop a couple of things here and there and take mostly support type stuff like Power Thrust, Thunderstrike, and the like.

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I am not sure about Ice as a secondary, atleast Ice has a secondary effect.

Fire Manipulation needs to be given a 'slotable' secondary effect in pvp and pve. I personnally would like one of the AoEs taken out and blasters given Incinerate and Greater Fire Sword.

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3) Datamining -- I looked at Blaster/Scrapper a few minutes ago. In terms of raw kills, Blasters are the better PvP killers, but only if they have Energy Manipulation. Without EM, they are roughly 60% of scrappers numbers. In terms of kills to death ratio, Blasters are slightly behind scrappers with EM, but competing with Defenders and Dominators for lowest value Note, that these are solo values! Things are very different in team play.

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So will Kill to Death be the new reasoning for power reductions.

While we dont even know what a baseline K-to-D is per AT.

K-To-D...teh nuw Smoke Grenade

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And it's pointless to look at the kills-to-deaths ratio. Kills-to-deaths ratio is subject to social considerations.

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Like if alot of stalkers killed heroes that were mezzed, slowed, or otherwise distracted by someother villain?

Of if alot of stalkers left zones or switched to better teaming villains when heroes brought teams with +perception?

If kill to death ratio really mattered in pvp wouldnt ATs like Defenders and Dominators need some real positive adjusting?

I am not calling any dev out...but that post really opened a can of worms on that Kill to Death matters for balance IF it was a call to change stalkers.

But really the change to Placate wasnt even a nerf, it was more of a bug fix to make it function the way it works in pve.

Will the Kill to Death ratio change noticably?
Does the Kill to Death ratio even matter?
If Kill to Death ratio matters, then can the k-to-d of Defenders and Dominators be looked into.

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I spent an hour PvPing in Siren's without Hide or Stealth and left with a 5:1 Killeath ratio. Of course, I was a little more careful than I normally am, but nonetheless, my point stands. If my Stalker can achieve a better K ratio than most of my (very) HO'd lvl50's in Siren's without the use of hide, you have little to whine about.

A Stalker without Hide/Stealth still = PvP in easy mode.

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So you can take your stalker and not use Hide/Stealth for a 1 day for 1 hour in Sirens and get a k:d ratio of 5:1. Is 5:1 low, high, or medium?
We didnt even use the term Kill to Death ratio untill _Castle_ mentioned it a few days ago and we still dont know what a normal k:d is for an average player.

So without knowing baselines, saying your 5:1 in only 1 hour means stalkers = Easy PvP Mode really doesnt hold water.

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I ask that you point me to a post where a dev has stated that the level differential does not apply in the arena.

Until then, I'm going to believe that the arena is under the same percentages for level differential as the PvE game - just that everyone is granted +25% defense. No matter what, even 5 on 1, you will be destroyed by a +8 opponent - especially one piloted by a human.

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I may have said everyone is "auto-leveled" in the arena, but I was mistaken. Instead, the same code as effects Giant Monsters is in effect -- when you attack a player, your To Hit and Damage is the same level they are. So, a 40 attacking a 50, would attack as if he was level 50, while the 50 attacking the 40 would be roughly equivalent to a 40.

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Thanks for the clarification on it _Castle_

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TJ_Solomon's over on another part of the board trying to argue that the "change to Placate" will entirely resolve the PvP imbalance and that no other changes are necessary.

In other words, he's not being entirely consistent with his arguments. Either it will balance PvP, as he's claimed elsewhere, or it will have absolutely no impact, as he's claiming here.


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Why the hell are you telling lies and trying to start flames, thats against forum rules.

If you are referring to your little thread, I said nearly the same thing, that this placate nerf wont effect my playstyle.
And that you are incorrect on your assumptions of the quote you are using in your sig and blatantly take things out of context.

What I have been saying time and time again is there are counters that have been provided by the devs. Use them.
Players that dont use the powers provided have put the devs in the boat of needing to put in further adjustments to stalkers.

Stalkers that dont read the boards think that in pvp placate only placates the one target and when this change hits might not even notice.
Stalkers that read the boards know placate works like an AOE in pvp but being board readers are above the skill level of average players and know how to pick which target will need the actually placate.

This doesnt address the issues players perceptually have with stalkers, AS damage and perception. Neither of which are issues against teams that use some of the antistalker powers provided.

Even after this patch goes Live, posters like CB will still have chips on their shoulders because they just dont get it.

This thread is called placate nerf. I try use the word change more, but nerf keeps popping up. One players nerf is anothers change.

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It goes this way for controllers in pve as well... my controller almost never dies in pve... and kills just fine... does that mean if he gets killed in pvp I should just leave the zone and not bother with it?

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I was speaking about the stalker AT not your controller build. I was speaking about the tendencies of some of the stalker players that pvp.




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Lets watch the magic of mathematics at work shall we?


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As you stated it depends on what said ratio is to begin with.

Will an added number of deaths caused by this change really bring the k/d down to other AT levels?

I cant see this change adding many deaths to my stalker nor any of the stalkers I fight or team with.

But hey if the devs think 2 or 3 more death per hour of pvp will bring stalkers inline with other ATs k/d then let's do it.

This nerf has destroyed the stalker AT, let's strike the Test server....with a mallet.

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Making placate have a to-hit check for pvp adjusts both ends of the spectrum while not touching stalkers in pve.

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Actually this would be too much of a buff for defensive sets like Ice tanks and SR scrappers.


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If you do not see how adjusting placate will reduce the k/d ratio perhaps it is because you have not considered how placate influences their k/d ratio in the first place.


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Would it decrease their kill count, doubt it.
Would it increase their deaths, of course it is a nerf after all.
Would it increase their deaths to be inline with other ATs, show me the numbers of all the ATs. This is a minor change to placate really so minor that if the difference in k/d ratio was that blatantly large, this change isnt enough.
If the difference is that great.

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In addition... why do you suspect that stalkers will only stay in the pvp zones if they can kill and not be killed?... no other AT plays this way... have stalkers become so spoiled by their current k/d ratio that anything less means avoiding pvp altogether and just leaving the zone?


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Thats mostly how pve goes for solo stalkers, killing easily while not being killed.



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Blasters manage to stay in the zone even when they die... so why would stalkers suddenly just vanish from the pvp zones unless they are immune to any retaliatory action?

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Thats mostly how blasters are used to playing in pve. Dying multiple times while soloing a blaster in pve is normal. Blasters can take a licking and keep on ticking.

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If this is true it says something very odd about the mentality of the stalkers you are referring to.

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Just an observation from playing on in SC on Victory, Guardian, Freedom, and Triumph.

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So instead of adjusting stalkers the developers should not allow perceptionless players into the pvp zones?

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And this change to placate will aid perceptionless players how exactly?
If I use placate on a perceptionless player it is used to get a crit from my next attack or setup AS. Reducing the defense I get in my placated state is not going to help my target.

Bah there I go telling you guys stalkers arent hurt by this nerf. I am out of place.


Yes this nerf is

















DOOOOO000000OOOOOOoooOoooOOOOOM!!!!

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I have no doubt adjusting Placate would tank a solo stalker's Kill-to-Death ratio.


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It wont.....

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So what you are saying is that the developers data is only accurate for real ingame scenarios over the course of 6 months of data mining, but that it should not matter.

That if people played differently their numbers would be different.

Alright... then your proposed solution is to have the developers demand that everyone play differently so that the numbers come out better for stalkers.

Do you see that happening?... I don't.

The developers cannot make the players play differently just so they can avoid balancing anything... they have to react to how things evolve in the game as it is actually being played.

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I am saying that Stalkers > Perceptionless players and that more often then not perceptionless players are the ones in pvp zones with stalkers.

I am saying that Players that use anti-stalker tools > Stalkers. But this type of player is not in pvp zones as long as the perceptionless player and that when the zone is full of players with perception alot of stalkers leave...

Alot of Stalker players will play when they can kill similar to killing in pve but will leave when those things change. The numbers of kill to death might not even change much if stalker players leave when they die a few times.

Unless the devs can make stalkers stay and die then I doubt the kill to death ratio will change with this Assassin class.

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This may be your personal experience... unfortunately the data the developers have collected not only dissagrees with you... but even if scrappers are second best, they stall land far below Stalkers in terms of k/d ratio.


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stalker k/d ratio is better then a scrappers. I REALLY REALLY have to see that and can the devs look up my toons Stalker: Locked N' Bound and Scrapper: KillerRabbit for personal reference? That would be appreciated.

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That means that if you take every single other AT in the game and line them up in order... Stalkers are way above even their closest competitor... in otherwords, they win hands down, it is not even a contest so far as the numbers are concerned.

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It also means other ATs face more dangers. For example a Thermal COR on a team with 3 Stalkers. Go figure who will be targetted and die more often. Then you have ATs that cant get a pvp kill solo and the kill ends up going to stalkers. Another reason stalkers can get kills is because of 'bait' from more visible ATs.

But I can go on and on about the reasons the devs got the numbers they got but since they interpreted one way, it has to be right. Since it was from a red name and all. Red names arent wrong.

I dont see how this placate change will effect stalkers on their k/d ratio when stalker will just continue to pick on the targets that die quickly or just leave the zone as to not die themselves.

Goodluck with this nerf changing k/d ratio.

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This statement implies that the gap between stalkers and the second best AT is so large that required a fix... not that there should be no difference between the AT's at all.

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The statement didnt name the 2nd best AT.
From experience in all the pvp zones and the arena, I have to say scrappers are above and beyond more effective soloing then a stalker. Thanks to the fact there are far less restrictions to scrapper damage output.

In good teams blasters are easier to be kept healed, thanks to higher HP and constant damage output it also higher then stalkers.

I dont get the information Castle gave, it has to be deluded with all the times in Bloody Bay and Sirens Call when the only people in the zone are perceptionless heroes and stalkers.
If the numbers only reflected times when Sirens and BB had decent teams going(you know the ones that use the dev provided tools against stalkers) then I suspect the Stalker killl to death ratio to be closer to that of a blaster but not as good since when teamed most blasters can 2-3 shot a stalker.

Not what I am saying. Winning wasnt expected.
A death, one defeat, one time when her HP went to 0...would have been good. It wasnt a 1v1 it was FFA up to 5 of the players tried to gang up on the scrapper but to no avail.
The spike damage needed to take the scrapper down is in AS but with FA, WW, and CJ going for the scrapper AS was useless.

There isnt a purple patch in the arena. Whatever the devs call it.

I am not saying thats exactly how Recluses Victory will be just that it gave me a taste of what to expect from scrappers with FA.

Being a defense base AT, since everyones ACC starts at a base 50%, and we all had SOs. I figured there would be a 'chance' for the villains to at least kill the scrapper once, not win the match.

I dont do FFAs normally, it was on a whim and the result was disheartening as what to expect on a lvl50 Stalker,...with a snipe.

Looks like this nerf to placate for the sake of lowbie zones will make the supposed 'fantastic soloer' into a team needing AT in higher zones.

Not that there is anything wrong with teaming. Just that the solo ATs like scrappers still dont need to team to be effective but the devs want to push stalkers into *needing* to team by weakening them instead of improving other villain ATs and having stalkers *want* to team more.

Well the patch is not i7 so there could be buffs to villains...which if that was the case the buffs would have been better to put on a patch with the one-shot code and then if needed the placate nerf added later.

Measure twice, nerf once.

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EDIT: Additionally, this change was mostly aimed at the Bloody Bay and Siren's Call levels where Stalkers are so far above any other AT in Kill Count vs Death Count that it isn't even funny. In higher level PvP zones, players have plenty of options of dealing with Stalkers, which *should* force Stalkers to Team more.

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Since this doesnt include the one-shot code in the kill to death ratio, wouldnt this change to Placate be too much considering.

If this was to even stalkers to other ATs in Bloody Bay and Sirens Call, then what about Warburg or Recluses Victory?
RV adds more perception and a massive tohit bonus with Focused Accuracy. For the record FA destroys stalkers. I did a FFA with a few people and a lvl48 Spin/Regen with FA was in it. Killed every stalker at least once while never coming close to a death. Kill my stalker through Overload. But single Hero > multiple villains seems to be ok.

Even if the kill to death ratio included hero ATs, what about villain ATs which are way behind the pvp curve. Most villain ATs cant solo very well in pvp but most hero ATs can do well solo. Further skewing the numbers you are using to justify such a change.

It is a change we will have to deal with or find something horribly broken with it on Test.

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Why should stalkers be any different from anyone else? You show me a scrapper that can jump into the middle of a smart team and take them all out single handedly.

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My Spine/Regen some spine/srs (with AidSelf).

Well depending on what the scrapper can see, it is very possible to handle a decent size team of villains and take out a few of their players and not die.

I wouldnt say all because some of the team might be completely invis to a scrapper or after losing so many on the team, the remaining members regroup.

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FYI: my first COH character on Live was (is) a Fire/Fire Blaster.

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I knew there was a reason I respected you, you poor little Fire/Fire gimp.

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1- Perception is not intuitive and relies too much certain powerset specific powers

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+Perception is not the only tool to prevent getting ASed.
All of the others do work when employed.

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2- Packing so much damage in a single attack leaves no room for active defense. The only thing you can do is insulate yourself from the attack.


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Thats if the attack is able to get triggered and if it is allowed to land.

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3- Jumping around is exactly what gets you noticed in the first place. It's also makes it difficult to maintain group cohesion.

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Depends on the group.

If a group is only effective by standing under a Storm user then jumping around might be detrimental.

If a group is based around moving then moving is beneficial.


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3 typical stalkers will own 8 typical anything.


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I think thats untrue but that really depends on what you call typical.

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While it's true that no AT was designed 1v1 PvP...if stalkers are more effective in teams, then someone needs to let them know.

You don't need someone to distract your target, when your target can't see you. Or have you never fought against stalkers with a defender?

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This is teamed pvp?
What team in pvp is not suited to see stalkers? That would mean the team has no EMP or Tactics and is open to more then just stalkers.

Bait in pvp is great for stalkers.

PvP much or just go into a zone and whine about stalkers? The latter is not pvp just because you are in a pvp zone.

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Hunh...so the hundreds and hundreds of posters who complain about Stalkers in PvP...don't count?

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(Appeal to popularity?)


Players complain about everything from holds to inspirations.
Just because a number of players complain about something does not mean that something is broken,..well not in the way they complain about it.

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ah yes...the Stalker rep during CoV Beta. Well, it's certainly beyond the possibility he might have a bias towards stalkers isn't it?


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To keep them true to the original design? I hope so.

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You mean like the opening poster....lmao...or maybe Pilcrow, or Hunter, or Helmkat, or any number of rationale posters who perceive a problem?

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I am sure SuperChum would agree with you...or even Unique Dragon.

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I would like to see some evidence of that, since it goes against all of the experience and testing that I have done. Also, CM and Clarity's +PER do stack, or at least Clarity's does, which is all I have access to test with. I had been told that CM==Clarity, but its possible that isn't accurate. Is that statement based on testing?

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The +perception from CM does stack, even if the CM is cast from the same player.

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Heh, I'm sure they do. The point is, they die more often than Stalkers, or are you going to tell me that isn't true, too?


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The kill ratio of stalkers is more aligned with blasters while death ratio is similar to scrappers. unless +perception is heavy then most stalkers go down as fast as MMs. =)

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I wouldn't say as fast as MMs. MMs have less HP, no mez protection, and very little defense for themselves.

To my blaster (ice/fire), an MM is two shots with Aim and Buildup. A stalker is 4.

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To my Ice/Elec and Elec/EM blasters a MM is 2 shots and a Stalker is 2 with Aim and BU.

I have to respec my Fire/Fire again for PVP after i7, I really dont like the build I made. After the respec I think a 6slotted Blaze with a FireSword 6 slotted will 2 shot Stalkers...but I have to test it.

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Cool deal. So just out of curiosity, how much end does a power-boosted Short Circuit drain (fully slotted)?


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In PVE it drained 100% on bosses. In PVP and after ED, around 40% to players that dont have End Drain Resistance.
Combined with the other Elec attacks I could keep tanks at near 0 END.

My friends that have Elec/Elec blasters are able to keep Regen scrappers drained of End.


After CoV hit my Elec/EM has respecced out of Short Circuit and went full Blapper.

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Heh, I'm sure they do. The point is, they die more often than Stalkers, or are you going to tell me that isn't true, too?


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The kill ratio of stalkers is more aligned with blasters while death ratio is similar to scrappers. unless +perception is heavy then most stalkers go down as fast as MMs. =)

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Please elaborate. Does it work on endurance drains? I didn't think it did, but if so, then nice.


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Yup

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Yes, I have, and they're very nasty. I only mentioned that Blizzard does less damage in the interests of full disclosure, because Dwarflord is taking the pro-Blaster angle. It wasn't in any way intended to imply that Ice/cold corrupters are gimped.

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I didnt say you meant they were gimped, just that saying their blizzard does less damage then a blasters doesnt do justice an Ice/Cold Cors.

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Unless the Blapper loads up on Inspirations, it's suicide even to THINK about attacking a someone in a team, though.

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Then call my blasters suicidal cause I will and do jump into teams of villains to kill my target...hell if I have Inferno or Thunderous Blast up I kill multiple targets.
Of course thats when I solo, when teamed I make sure I am with my teammates. Good times when they are all suicidal.

The supreme importance is to get the kill...
Do alot of blasters think like that?


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1. The Blaster has what? 10% more hitpoints? I'm honestly curious.

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In Sirens =
Blaster HP is 820.2
Stalker HP is 692.6

so about 16% more.

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As for Power Boost, it used to be uber, back when power pool defenses were worth a damn. I'm not sure whether it works on slows or not, but either way, it's another power that appears to compliment Ice almost exclusively, because of the ranged mezzes in that power set. Other sets are going to see little or no benefit from it, except, of course, Energy Manipulation itself, assuming your in melee range (stuns).

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Power Boost compliments the heck out of my Elec/EM blaster.

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Interestingly, an Ice Corrupter is better suited to leverage Blizzard in small-scale or one-on-one play, although for Corrupters, the power does less damage.

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Less damage, like it matters.
Seriously have you fought an Ice/Cold COR?
You have no idea how well they can capitalize on their stacked slows, -recharge, -regen, -fly, -def, -res, -heal,....and ugh I didnt have fun fighting one to say the least.