The blaster v. scrapper "Who is the damage AT and why do they get mez protection" argument will probably restart in a week...if it hasn't already.
I see the thread in the General PvP section is still going strong with all the melee talking points being trotted out.
It will all come up here again too I am sure.
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I see the thread in the General PvP section is still going strong with all the melee talking points being trotted out.
It will all come up here again too I am sure.
[/ QUOTE ]
Meh, let the debate start if it's going to. I for one, am not getting sucked into it again.
As far as I'm concerned, _Castle_ and the other devs in charge of balancing know our issues, and will work 'em out after I7 and probably by I8, I'm thinking.
I really do hope they listen to our more reasonable suggestions.
For instance, 20' attacks to 50' and 40' cones to 60' (and a minimum range of 50' for any "ranged" blaster attack) wouldn't break anything, and would almost definitely fix a lot of stuff.
I don't know about you guys, but I trust _Castle_ to fix our issues the way he fixed Stalker/Scrapper issues.
If new Claws (which I'm actually excited to play now) is an indication of anything, I'm betting we'll see some positive changes to the more eyebrow raising problems with our sets.
Arc Salvo: Okay hold one sec guys, we can't just rush in blindly vs these Nemesis, they've got these ranged aoe's tha-
Teammate1(charging in): Shut up, Arc Salvo, you lame*$% Viewtiful Joe wannabe! What do you know?!
Teammate2(also charging): yeah, ST#& arc salvo u PWR RANGR U!
Arc Salvo: *sigh*
Well, it will be interesting to see how the toggle dropping reduction jives with his statement that melee characters should bring break frees and be prepared to fight without their defenses sometimes.
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Scrappers do more damage than blaster what kinda [censored] is that?!?! They get mez protection and they get... blah blah blah blah blah blah blah... blaster should get.... blah blah blah blah.... why can stalkers one shot kill but blasters cant drain endo... blah blah blah blah..... 
The Kronos has a hold n00b!
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I see the thread in the General PvP section is still going strong with all the melee talking points being trotted out.
It will all come up here again too I am sure.
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Meh, let the debate start if it's going to. I for one, am not getting sucked into it again.
As far as I'm concerned, _Castle_ and the other devs in charge of balancing know our issues, and will work 'em out after I7 and probably by I8, I'm thinking.
I really do hope they listen to our more reasonable suggestions.
For instance, 20' attacks to 50' and 40' cones to 60' (and a minimum range of 50' for any "ranged" blaster attack) wouldn't break anything, and would almost definitely fix a lot of stuff.
I don't know about you guys, but I trust _Castle_ to fix our issues the way he fixed Stalker/Scrapper issues.
If new Claws (which I'm actually excited to play now) is an indication of anything, I'm betting we'll see some positive changes to the more eyebrow raising problems with our sets.
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set the bar a little higer arc 
minimum should be 80 we are the range AT after all, more dam in primaries even ice, faster activation times and no rooting in animations to compensate should you fire on the move there should be a slight acc penalty.
What's sad is that _Castle_ can be so incredibly wrong when he is the only dev that regularly posts on balance issues. Perhaps they should datamine kills in the arena, especiall the arena on Test to see what is and isn't true.
Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
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What's sad is that _Castle_ can be so incredibly wrong when he is the only dev that regularly posts on balance issues. Perhaps they should datamine kills in the arena, especiall the arena on Test to see what is and isn't true.
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To the devs this game is a job. Our own interest in it varies from hobby to obsession. It's only natural that from time to time the devs will not understand things that seem obvious to the forumgoers.
And who's to say whether our "obvious truths" really are?
~Gabriel
Its my belief, which I practice with my own business, if you aren't passionate about what you do you should probably look for something else to do. IMO, its like someone trying to design a cell phone when the designer doesn't regularly use one or a surf board manufacturer building boards with having any good surfers on staff. I don't know, maybe its just me but it would be pretty dumb for a company to make tennis rackets, without understanding how they actually work in high level play.
Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
/agreed.
I know I would not like to go see a doctor for some surgery. To which:
"To the doctors surgery is a job. Our own interest in it varies from increased interest to obsession when we are to go under the knife. It's only natural that from time to time the doctors will not understand things that seem obvious to the concerned patient."
Granted this is a HUGE! jump in importance but the notion still remains. Take something as basic as insurance. Would you be upset if your agents non understanding of how your policy worked resulted in your insurance claim being void when it should be granted?
If we are paying 15 dollars a month to play a game, having the people that design and balance it understand all the angles should be expected not optional. Granted not everyone needs to understand everything, but between the team it should be understood as a whole, and a post about such should come from someone who recieves such info and factors this into his/her knowledge base.
Thorizdin_LotD:
Who's to say that _Castle_ hasn't "datamine[d] kills in the [A]rena" "to see what is and isn't true"?
Ask him in a PM. He'll answer. Last week, I asked him to clarify whether Stalkers have a higher kill-to-death ratio in Warburg, too (which he didn't mention in the post I've got currently quoted in my sig). I got an answer (it was the answer I expected to get, but it's nice to get confirmation).
40062: The World's Worst PUG
84008: Jenkins's Guide to Super-Villainy
230187: The Hero of Kings Row
No H8 - 08.04.10
@Circuit Boy - Moderator - Pride global chat channel
This is why I outdamage scrappers in Melee in PvE and PvE.
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Thorizdin_LotD:
Who's to say that _Castle_ hasn't "datamine[d] kills in the [A]rena" "to see what is and isn't true"?
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I would have expected something to be mentioned, but I will PM him. I try not to bother the staff, they are busy enough without having to deal with lots of player communication.
The other reason is that datamining has value, but doesn't represent what is possible. Looking at what happens to the average player does have value, since they need to enjoy the game, but you also have to look at what the above average player can do. In high skill level team PvP, Scrappers are not the AT that scores the most kills, blasters are by far. This may not be possible for the "average" or new team but its of critical importance when it comes to determining how to balance the game. The techniques that only the dedicated PvP SG's/VG's are using will filter down over time.
Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
Thorizdin_LotD:
You are not in any position to make the following assertion with any kind of reliability:
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In high skill level team PvP, Scrappers are not the AT that scores the most kills, blasters are by far.
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First, you simply do not have the necessary information to make the claim. You do not know this. You cannot know it. It's impossible; you do not know the results of every Arena fight and every PvP zone fight on every server.
Second, however, the rhetorical game you're playing--and, believe me, it's a game--will allow you to maintain the assertion even in spite of actual data or facts. You qualified it with "in the high skill level team PvP game"--but that's such a murky phrase that it has no actual meaning. You can continually redefine what "high- skill level team PvP game" means until your assertion becomes true, even to the point of ridiculousness. You can continually say "those players just weren't skilled enough so we need to throw the actual data we have out" until you get the results you want. However, this is bad statistics--anyone who's ever taken a stats course knows that. You don't toss the data out until your point is proven. You analyze what you've got and make your assertions from that, not the other way around (which is what you're doing, effectively).
Don't take this the wrong way. You MIGHT be right. I'm not disputing that. But without the data available, you simply cannot make the assertion you made with any accuracy or reliability, and it seems to me that you're trying to pre-ordain the answer so it'll fit what you want.
40062: The World's Worst PUG
84008: Jenkins's Guide to Super-Villainy
230187: The Hero of Kings Row
No H8 - 08.04.10
@Circuit Boy - Moderator - Pride global chat channel
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The other reason is that datamining has value, but doesn't represent what is possible. Looking at what happens to the average player does have value, since they need to enjoy the game, but you also have to look at what the above average player can do. In high skill level team PvP, Scrappers are not the AT that scores the most kills, blasters are by far. This may not be possible for the "average" or new team but its of critical importance when it comes to determining how to balance the game. The techniques that only the dedicated PvP SG's/VG's are using will filter down over time.
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Here's the thing with datamining. In addition to having access to statistics concerning the mean and median player, it's reasonable to also assume the Devs have access to the outliers. Seeing what the bulk of players are doing is useful and pertinent. And you're right that the Devs should also be looking at overperforming builds, but we have evidence that the Devs also pay attention to those builds -- one potential argument for that being thehits to perma-38 Scrapper secondary powers in I4.
Whether or not they do regularly look at such outliers is open to debate, without more detailed knowledge of their inner workins, it's hard to say. But in principle, we know they have access to the necessary information from the live servers.
No one is perfect. Everyone makes mistakes here and there. Looking at the numbers, it would seem that Scrappers do more damage but in the "real world" it can be different.
Unfortunatley, devs dont have the time to post DOOOooOOOOM all the time on the boards and just give what they thought looked right but we correct and then they go back and go "Well damn, it looks like we were off, our mistake"
This space is intentionally left blank.
CB, the best PvP'ers in the game play on the test events. Even given the fact that not all high skill level PvP'ers are there, it is by far the highest concentration of skilled PvP players in the game. We don't even have to look at scores, we can look at team composition of the best teams an it becomes readily apparant that Blasters (specifically Blappers) _are_ the melee AT of choice. Scrappers are a distant second, ironically the "best" Scrapper set, Spines/Regen, depends on in part on its ranged attack to be effective. It is true that the recent change to Whirlwind and the coming change to toggle dropping may shift the balance, but currently Blappers are king of melee. If you disagree or think that the events on test don't represent the highest skill level PvP in the game, you really ought to check out the events being scheduled by Labrynth:
Test League
and Terpman:
1v1 Tourney
Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
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CB, the best PvP'ers in the game play on the test events. Even given the fact that not all high skill level PvP'ers are there, it is by far the highest concentration of skilled PvP players in the game. We don't even have to look at scores, we can look at team composition of the best teams an it becomes readily apparant that Blasters (specifically Blappers) _are_ the melee AT of choice. Scrappers are a distant second, ironically the "best" Scrapper set, Spines/Regen, depends on in part on its ranged attack to be effective. It is true that the recent change to Whirlwind and the coming change to toggle dropping may shift the balance, but currently Blappers are king of melee. If you disagree or think that the events on test don't represent the highest skill level PvP in the game, you really ought to check out the events being scheduled by Labrynth:
Test League
and Terpman:
1v1 Tourney
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Hey Thor I've met you and your LOTD vg lots in sc and WB fun times. About the labyrinth tourney I dont think that I have the time to register for a team but I'm interested in becoming one of the free agents just on the off chance I might be able to sub do you know how that is handled?
I agree with you arena test is the higest comglomeration of the highly skilled pvpers, and although it maybe that blappers tend to get the higer scores out there it is because they are heavily supported by thier team especially a pocket empath and kenetics is really good. A blapper with no support will probably do no better than a scrapper and infact will be more easily killed imho.
The change to WW and TD will really impact the blappers and not just because it affects them directly but the ww change to thieir support who are now going to be more vulnerable. And like you said might shift the balance to melle AT's.
My personal opinion on the scrapper vs blasters thing is that blasters should be tops in kills when teamed properly it says it in the AT description in teams scrappers are overshadowed by blasters.
Scrappers being the jack of all trades should be just that average on teams, they die less have better protection so they should be killing less. And this should go for every melle AT out there stlakers are a breed onto their own. Like Ohms said damage is all blasters have going for them so in a good team that can support them they should be tops in kills and damage. It's just my opinion though
1) Castle's post gives the example of 1v1. The devs have stated on more than one occasion that this game isn't balanced for such a scenario.
2) The example that is given excludes inspirations. Currently there is no form of PvP that gives such an option.
Currently roleplaying, badgehunting, and laughing at the PvPers of CoX. lol, PvP.
Truedusk - Human Rogue
_Castle_'s post also doesn't establish a timeframe. He may be 100% accurate, in fact, since he doesn't define 'damage', and very well may be saying damage over time. Which may be entirely irrelevant for PVP, if the point where scrapper damage starts to surpass blaster damage happens well after the scrapper is dead.
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Scrappers out damage blasters in melee. Blasters AT mod is 1, while scrappers is 1.125. Scrappers also get unresistable criticals of 2x damage 5% of the time, which can be compared to Blasters 33% unresistable damage.
Energy Melee's Stuns coupled with toggle dropping pretty much make the damage a secondary effect. While the blasters (who have little or no mez protections) are used to functioning with break frees active, most scrappers are not, as they rely on their inherent protection powers to keep them safe.
In other words, despite your toggle powers protections, pretend you don't have them and prepare based on that -- because those protections will be knocked down at some point.
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Personally I was floored by this _Castle_ post. He has shown a real understanding of balance problems in the past, but on this one he seems completely ignorant of the nuts and bolts of the issue.
Blaster AT damage mod vs. Scrapper AT damage mod means nothing. The base damage of the actual attacks is what matters. How about we compare a non-crit Tier 9 Scrapper attack to a Blapper's Total Focus? The Scrapper will not come out on top by 12.5% on that test, I assure you.
PVP is burst damage. An unreliable 5% chance for crits, versus 33% guaranteed unresistable damage is not equitable. Advantage to the Blaster again.
And the statement that Energy Melee's damage is a secondary effect?? If a dev considers the absolute highest damage in the game to be a secondary effect then I am scared for the future of PVP.
Like Thorizdin said, they need to datamine kill rates or something. And it's pointless to look at the kills-to-deaths ratio. Kills-to-deaths ratio is subject to social considerations. If a Blaster's melee is a much bigger threat than a Scrapper's melee, guess who we're going to kill first? Just because Blasters are squishier than Scrappers doesn't mean they should be better at melee than Scrappers.
Blaster melee > Scrapper melee. It looks like the devs can't see that on paper, though it's fairly obvious in practice. I have never seen whirlwinding Scrappers bouncing around 2-shotting people with melee attacks before their healer can even react... can't say the same for Blasters.
Woah, woah, woah.
Let's not dismiss the "kills-to-deaths" ratio as "pointless".
It gives us quite a bit of information that is useful.
And, Thorizdin, you really haven't addressed my second point, which is that using a criterion like "high-skill level team PvP" is competely subjective. There is no way to quantify "high-skill level team PvP" or make any kind of objective category known as "high-skill level team PvP". For data analysis to be remotely valid, you want to eliminate as many subjective factors as possible.
40062: The World's Worst PUG
84008: Jenkins's Guide to Super-Villainy
230187: The Hero of Kings Row
No H8 - 08.04.10
@Circuit Boy - Moderator - Pride global chat channel
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And it's pointless to look at the kills-to-deaths ratio. Kills-to-deaths ratio is subject to social considerations.
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Like if alot of stalkers killed heroes that were mezzed, slowed, or otherwise distracted by someother villain?
Of if alot of stalkers left zones or switched to better teaming villains when heroes brought teams with +perception?
If kill to death ratio really mattered in pvp wouldnt ATs like Defenders and Dominators need some real positive adjusting?
I am not calling any dev out...but that post really opened a can of worms on that Kill to Death matters for balance IF it was a call to change stalkers.
But really the change to Placate wasnt even a nerf, it was more of a bug fix to make it function the way it works in pve.
Will the Kill to Death ratio change noticably?
Does the Kill to Death ratio even matter?
If Kill to Death ratio matters, then can the k-to-d of Defenders and Dominators be looked into.
I saw that too... I love it, I just love it.
Brother of Markus
The Lord of Fire and Pain
The Legendary Living Hellfire
Fight my brute!
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Scrappers out damage blasters in melee. Blasters AT mod is 1, while scrappers is 1.125. Scrappers also get unresistable criticals of 2x damage 5% of the time, which can be compared to Blasters 33% unresistable damage.
Energy Melee's Stuns coupled with toggle dropping pretty much make the damage a secondary effect. While the blasters (who have little or no mez protections) are used to functioning with break frees active, most scrappers are not, as they rely on their inherent protection powers to keep them safe.
In other words, despite your toggle powers protections, pretend you don't have them and prepare based on that -- because those protections will be knocked down at some point.
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I got it saved, just for when the arguement comes up again. You know it will.