Perhaps, but you are now speaking of a PvP zone that has yet to be implemented.
In 3 out of the future 4, the risk v reward is still broken. There is no loss of reputation for dying. In SC, one does not lose bounty for dying. Hence, many ATs will jump into the fray to try to get even 1 kill. Dying doesn't mean anything.
I was thinking about that. In the overall picture deaths may not mean anything simply due to the different playstyles that players have with their ATs but it does still have the impact of travel time if that player is teamed.
So, when looking at team battles, you have to consider that time that the blaster is returning from the hospital. That of course varies depending on where in the map two teams are fighting. It is still a factor even if it is a small one for some of the time.
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3) Datamining -- I looked at Blaster/Scrapper a few minutes ago. In terms of raw kills, Blasters are the better PvP killers, but only if they have Energy Manipulation. Without EM, they are roughly 60% of scrappers numbers. In terms of kills to death ratio, Blasters are slightly behind scrappers with EM, but competing with Defenders and Dominators for lowest value Note, that these are solo values! Things are very different in team play.
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A lot of folks seem to believe that energy manipulation on blasters is overpowered, both in respect to other ATs and other blaster builds.
Even in PvE the sheer power that energy manipulation carries outweighs the powers of fire manipulation or the adaptiveness of traps.
Statesman hasn't talked (ranted) about game balance in awhile, but this looks like a major contender...
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Statesman hasn't talked (ranted) about game balance in awhile, but this looks like a major contender..
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for the other secondary sets to be modeled after. Your right.
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There are components to the buff/debuff sets that are shared with Controllers that are more effective in the hands of Defenders. Hal fof the Storm set (it's not just Hurricane).
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Not really, the synergy between controller primary sets and their secondary allows them to use the defender Primary powers as secondary powers to greater effect.
Grave/Storm for instance. AoE immobilize + Snow Storm. Add Freezing Rain. The slow from the immobilize + the slow from the storm + the slow from freezing rain. Even if the target is not immobilized, they are at the slow cap because all three powers produce a slow effect. Ice/Storm is even better since all three of their powers would also give -recharge.
You can go down the line and see how controllers are MUCH more dangerous to the opposing team, yet are still pursued less than the defenders. The reason is that the defender has the least defense for himself and is an easier target which means you can get a kill count faster. Thats it.
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CB, the best PvP'ers in the game play on the test events. Even given the fact that not all high skill level PvP'ers are there, it is by far the highest concentration of skilled PvP players in the game. We don't even have to look at scores, we can look at team composition of the best teams an it becomes readily apparant that Blasters (specifically Blappers) _are_ the melee AT of choice. Scrappers are a distant second, ironically the "best" Scrapper set, Spines/Regen, depends on in part on its ranged attack to be effective. It is true that the recent change to Whirlwind and the coming change to toggle dropping may shift the balance, but currently Blappers are king of melee.
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Just replying to say that I totally agree. I pvp on the test server frequently and blasters (specifically ice/em) are the king of damage and melee, bar none.
When comparing my Ice/EM blaster (blapper) to my others, this one can fire through its attack chain and be well into its second before my others finish their first.
All you need to do is attend the Test pvp league matches on a regular basis and record the kills. Blasters easily out melee every AT in the game. It's my experience that scrappers are becoming fewer and fewer in teamed matches as well.
I don't see the whirlwind change doing much to upset the balance either. So long as I can drop 2 or 3 toggles in one hit, I'll take out a scrapper faster than they can me.
And the fact that Castle is basically telling people that they should just pvp like they have no toggles is not very encouraging.
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3) Datamining -- I looked at Blaster/Scrapper a few minutes ago. In terms of raw kills, Blasters are the better PvP killers, but only if they have Energy Manipulation. Without EM, they are roughly 60% of scrappers numbers. In terms of kills to death ratio, Blasters are slightly behind scrappers with EM, but competing with Defenders and Dominators for lowest value Note, that these are solo values! Things are very different in team play.
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What are you datamining for this? For example, in Siren's, you get stuff for killing people, and you lose nothing for dying. So I will often charge into the thick of a pack or port one person away and try to take them out with my ice/em, even if I know it's possible or probable I'll die in response. Even when low on health, I fight on, since defiance gives me a chance for a kill and dying means nothing.
As far as blaster secondaries, I think devices is quite servicable in pvp, although lacking buildup is a huge disadvantage. Then again, tp foe+trip mine is a pretty nice combo. One trick pony, but a NICE trick.
The others, well, both their attacks and their utility are a bit behind em. I mean, you can't compare conserve power vs burn.
There is something else though: EM is self selecting. It has a small edge over the other sets, for certain. However, players who play extensively in PvP are fully aware of such an edge, and therefore their characters (like my main PvP character) are built with this in mind. So people "dedicated" to pvp pick the best set even if the edge is small a disproportionate amount of the time. Casual players pick their sets based on concept, aesthetics, or whatever. Then they PvP. They lose more because PvP is a lark or an experiment for them, or perhaps a quest for a badge.
To verify this claim, simply data mine those PvP blasters who have /EM, and check the percentage who have Ice. Hardly proportional, eh?
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Very good points. For anything that involves data mining (not just in a game) the raw information is just a starting place at best.
I guess they would then need to go one step further and break it out by serious and casual PvP'er. Time spent in PvP combat should be a decent way to do this.
Among casual PvP'ers it may show all set are around the same, and therefore the other sets should be buffed to make the hard core PvP'er need to rethink choices and also it would ensure the casual player puts together a decent PvP set even if that was not a goal they set out for at the start.
An ice / dark corruptor is an entirely differenct beast than a dark / dark defender -- especially when you consider that, three of the powers you highlighted, by and large, work the same across all three sets that have access to dark miasma. The slow (and maybe movement penalties in general) in tar patch is classified as a control and not a debuff, and so defenders do not get a bonus while using it. The fear in fearsome stare is also a control, so no AT bonus again for dark miasma. Pet. gaze is, of course, a straight-up hold and is, once again, another power for which defenders get no bonus.
The best PvP powers in dark miasma don't work any better as a primary than they do as a secondary. The powers that do work better for defenders are the debuffs, particularly the layered accuracy / to hit and damage debuffs that are the real mainstay of a dark defender's arsenal. But those are the same powers that don't work well in PvP because debuffs only work on base values, not enhanced + buffed values; the debuffs don't scale. The more accuracy and damage your opponent has, the less noticeable the debuffs become.
The real difference between DM corruptors and defenders comes down the blasts. Ice is a good PvP set because of its combination of controls + single target damage. There is nothing comparable available to defenders. An ice Corruptor gets higher starting damage and better PvP utility than any defender can possibly get from her blasts.
An ice / dark corruptor is a significantly larger threat than a dark / anything defender.
Controls trump debuffs in PvP, plain and simple. Debuffs are very, very easy to work around, but controls are trickier. If you can layer a bunch of controls, you're far better off than if you can layer an entire set's worth of debuffs.
Anyway, I don't have any solutions; I'm just offering up my experiences. Ice corruptors are just plain nasty in PvP, regardless of their secondaries. Single defenders on big teams are cannon fodder.
FWIW, my all-time best experience doing PvP was the Siren's Call event in CoV beta. I re-made my bubbler and joined a defender-heavy team with a couple kins, a couple sonics, my bubbler, and a couple empaths. We were nasty; nothing could stop us. We had something like 5 defeats and a 100 kills. Hereos would hover near us for buffs, and villains would move to the other side of the zone.
But something tells me that it wasn't the devs' intention to have defenders come in pairs (so they can keep each other safe), what with single accounts allowing you just one toon logged in at a time.
PvP is a fun diversion, but ... that's just it. It's not a common thing for me to do because, in the end, it's no fun seeing my favourite toons getting ganked. Over. And over.
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I think you're letting your ATist rhetoric blind you to the point that Castle's list strictly discusses solo PvP, which he explicitly qualifies. Furthermore, he goes on to vaguely suggest that PvP-performance hierarchy is wholly different on teams -- which is ostensibly what PvP is built around.
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In team play, most AT's are within 30% of one another. The few exceptions should be looked at. Defenders, Controllers, Corruptors and Dominators are NOT at the bottom of this list, by any stretch.
"Release the numbers" -- I can't. It really is proprietary info, and the generalities I'm providing are about as far as I can go.
"OMG! He's nerfing EM!" -- Nope, at least not for I7.
CoX will be a better place with EM adjusted.
In any case there are more parameters to take into consideration... ratio in PvP is not everything...
1) You need to consider how ATs perform int he Arena and in Base raids as well...
2) You need to take into consideration that Squishies will die more often as long as it's so easy to kill em ... they're defense is... a strong offense or control... (an active defense)...
In the case where they get one-shotted and that Stalkers are so dominant in zones... they hero squishies will get bad numbers.
Tankers... whom Stalkers basically almost ignore entirely... are gonna get high kill ratios for the simple fact that MMs are such easy kills and that Tankers seem to not be worth the effort... attacking a tanker is an open invitation to be ganked. Doesnt mean in a controlled environement that people will shy away from it.
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CoX will be a better place with EM adjusted.
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That may be true, but /em currently is a good balancer for regen stalkers and scraps.
I'm not saying nerf one for the other though, believe me. I do think /em in some capacity may need some tweaking. We'll be able to tell a little better after the toggle drop changes. I would much rather see the other secondaries raised somehow to compensate for the disparity.
I am waiting for the fear to sink in over -
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"OMG! He's nerfing EM!" -- Nope, at least not for I7.
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- for the boards to erupt in convultions. 
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"OMG! He's nerfing EM!" -- Nope, at least not for I7.
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That's ok, some classic nerfs came right before or right after an issue release.
Plus if I read you correctly EM is more powerful than the other sets. Hmmm.... boost all other sets to match EM? Or nerf EM to match other sets... hmmmm which one will the devs go for. It's a mystery.
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CoX will be a better place with EM adjusted.
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CoX will be a better place if the other blaster powersets were improved with EM as a guide.
There is nothing particularly overpowered about stalker, Tank, or Brute EM.
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There is nothing particularly overpowered about stalker EM.
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You're crazy.
Yeah, I like Energy Manipulation as a Blaster set. I just played through my longish, alta-holic list of Blasters the other day, and I was shocked at how much of them were ranged-only (I've always been a concept player) and how many (3/4ths) had Energy Manipulation as a secondary.
Power Thrust (for the fun, "smackiness" factor and the boss-level mitigation + the decent frontloaded damage at lower levels) is just so awesome, and the early availablility of Buildup is quite nice.
If you like Blaps, Energy Manipulations has lots of good ones, and stuns in 'em to boot, and if you like Range (like I did when I made all those Blasters), Conserve Power, Power Boost, and especially Boost range make for some awesome non-situational buffs.
When I look at energy manipulation (as a Blaster secondary) it really rocks so hard because every power is useful (even Stun), and just about all of 'em are non-situational, and the secondary as a whole is very flexible and useable to any given player, imho.
As for Energy Melee itself... the set doesn't seem overly powerful to me PVE wise (the dps after the alpha drops off considerably compared to more balanced dps sets), but the frontloaded burst damage + stun potential makes for some great pvp utility, although whether that's unbalanced or not is up for discussion.
Given that I'm not a pvp-er, I really don't know too much on the subject.
I do agree with Concern in saying that Blaster secondaries should be balanced with /EM in mind though. Out of all the secondaries, it seems to be the most capable of being "all things to all people", and it doesn't have a taunt aura.
Seriously, although I did expect the devs to drag their feet on fixing Blaster issues for a long period of time, I still don't know why they haven't removed those damn things yet.
I see SO many new Blasters taking those things and gimping themselves out of a much better power when I play the lower levels...
Arc Salvo: Okay hold one sec guys, we can't just rush in blindly vs these Nemesis, they've got these ranged aoe's tha-
Teammate1(charging in): Shut up, Arc Salvo, you lame*$% Viewtiful Joe wannabe! What do you know?!
Teammate2(also charging): yeah, ST#& arc salvo u PWR RANGR U!
Arc Salvo: *sigh*
FINALLY team numbers.
What gets me is that not too long ago, Pilcrow made the thread about balancing blasters. Castle replied that the chances of the sets being reworked the way the players were mentioning was not going to happen. I would love to see all the secondaries be as effective as EM... but the devs take the easy road out most of the time.
Currently roleplaying, badgehunting, and laughing at the PvPers of CoX. lol, PvP.
Truedusk - Human Rogue
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"OMG! He's nerfing EM!" -- Nope, at least not for I7.
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Not nerfing EM, BUT maybe they're giving ALL of the sets 10 BI attacks with Mag3 stuns!
...
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There is nothing particularly overpowered about stalker EM.
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You're crazy.
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I second that.
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In team play, most AT's are within 30% of one another. The few exceptions should be looked at. Defenders, Controllers, Corruptors and Dominators are NOT at the bottom of this list, by any stretch.
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Well, it's nice to have some confirmation that TA defenders aren't actually defenders, since they're THE bottom of the list. It's a step in the right direction, at least!
>.>
<.<
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In team play, most AT's are within 30% of one another. The few exceptions should be looked at. Defenders, Controllers, Corruptors and Dominators are NOT at the bottom of this list, by any stretch.
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Is this still based on Ratio only? To suggest otherwise, would be saying that Tankers, Brutes, Scrappers, or Stalkers die more often while on a team... Which is completely perposterous. If you only look at # of deaths for all AT's then Scrappers, Blasters and Stalkers will win that category simply b/c they're the largest populations in PvP.
People people... why scream nerf... scream buff. Perhaps it isnt EM that is overpowered but the other sets underpowered?
|� |�| |�| |� |�| |�����| |����| |� |�| |��� /���
~SNES, NES, GCN, N64, GB, Wii, GBC, GBA, SP, DS~|
|_| \_| |_| |_| \_| .. |__| .. |____| |_| \_| |___/ \___/
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I think you're letting your ATist rhetoric blind you to the point that Castle's list strictly discusses solo PvP, which he explicitly qualifies. Furthermore, he goes on to vaguely suggest that PvP-performance hierarchy is wholly different on teams -- which is ostensibly what PvP is built around.
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In team play, most AT's are within 30% of one another. The few exceptions should be looked at. Defenders, Controllers, Corruptors and Dominators are NOT at the bottom of this list, by any stretch.
"Release the numbers" -- I can't. It really is proprietary info, and the generalities I'm providing are about as far as I can go.
"OMG! He's nerfing EM!" -- Nope, at least not for I7.
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Wait, why aren't you nerfing EM?
I agree with Arc Salvo in that the other blaster secondaries are loaded with very dubious powers. I picked up Lighting Field on my first ever character (an elec/elec), and managed to use it successfully zero times. It drained too much endurance to keep it on all the time, and if the bad guys weren't near me, there was no need to run it...and by the time they were close enough for it to hurt them, a single attack would hit harder and generally drain less endurance.
Devices and Energy Manipulation are still the most useful blaster secondaries (though some people may disagree on Devices) because they're Swiss-Army knives. Our primary role is to be the artillery: stand back and hurl damage over our allies' heads. Our secondaries should complement that role. Self-stealth, accuracy boosting, secondary-effect boosting, range boosting; these are all complementary to the artillery mindset.
However, most of the powers in blaster secondaries aren't. So, we end up dipping repeatedly into pools to give us the staying power that comes innately to the other archetypes. I'd just like to add my voice to the throng requesting that the blaster sets get reviewed and tweaked some. I know it's not going to happen in the short-term forseeable future, but it's something we'd like to see, so I'm feeding back.
Have you or someone you know been the victim of Nerd Rage?
Find answers, get help.
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3) Datamining -- I looked at Blaster/Scrapper a few minutes ago. In terms of raw kills, Blasters are the better PvP killers, but only if they have Energy Manipulation. Without EM, they are roughly 60% of scrappers numbers. In terms of kills to death ratio, Blasters are slightly behind scrappers with EM, but competing with Defenders and Dominators for lowest value Note, that these are solo values! Things are very different in team play.
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First I think _Castle_ is super cool for responding, even in a thread where we were probably not being as respectful as we could.
On the K-to-D thing, again, I think looking at K-to-D is pointless. If you think about it from a tactical standpoint, it always makes sense to target the most threatening character first. My VG is heavily PVP oriented. When we are in a PVP zone, if an infamous /EM Blapper bounces into the fight, we nearly always switch targets to them to dispatch them before they can 2 shot us. So if you blow up the actual numbers, that Scrapper might have 5 kills to 3 deaths, but that Blapper might have 20 kills to 18 deaths. The Blapper's ratio appears worse in such a case, but it's pretty clear he's better at melee damage than the poor Scrapper.
Since we are picking on the uber power sets, how about datamining Spines/ Scrappers versus all of the other kinds. I imagine Broadsword might be close but I would bet the numbers for Claws, MA, DM, and Katana are pretty far behind.
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Exactly. The lack of a penalty for death makes the K-D ratio a bad way to balance sets. I think a better judge would be the number of kill per hour.
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Only if you are looking at rewards.
Think about Recluses Victory. If the blaster who dies has to come back from the Hospital more frequently than say, a stalker or another AT then that is time that he is not defending an objective. Apparently objectives are pretty important now, so having an AT that dies fast does make a difference.