A few early posters metioned the Blasters are the better melee over scrappers? What a crock!
First thing there are only two types of blasters that have good melee Energy and Elec. Second, very rarely do you see a blaster using 100% melee for ALL thier damage. Especialy against a melee AT. Third, A blasters few melee powers base recharge are slower than alot of scrappers unless they slot up for it or have hasten.
You cannot say that blasters/blappers are clearly the best meleers. You can maybe say that blasters melee do have better bonuses/effectiveness to them.
Couple things.
1) I was giving the AT mods, not considering build up/aim or external buffs. I did not specify a given power set. I think everyone who PvP's is aware of how dominant Energy Melee/Energy Manipulation can be.
2) "Damage as a secondary effect" If I don't Stun a person on my TF hit, they can typically escape. I could just be bad at energy melee, though (most of CoX PvP experience is Super Strength, Dark Melee, Claws, or Mind Control.)
3) Datamining -- I looked at Blaster/Scrapper a few minutes ago. In terms of raw kills, Blasters are the better PvP killers, but only if they have Energy Manipulation. Without EM, they are roughly 60% of scrappers numbers. In terms of kills to death ratio, Blasters are slightly behind scrappers with EM, but competing with Defenders and Dominators for lowest value Note, that these are solo values! Things are very different in team play.
Requisite "OMG Castle is nerfing EM" omgbbq response. 
I figure I should get it out of the way before someone who would actually be serious about taking that from your post does it.
However, it does raise an interesting issue. Will there be changes made to bring the performance of other blaster secondaries up to EM in PvP, or EM down to the others, or EM down a bit and the others up a bit? And when you look at how much EM helps blaster kill counts in PvP, do you factor in the popularity of EM as the FoTM PvP blaster secondary before you make changes?
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This does bring me some potential worry.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
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3) Datamining -- I looked at Blaster/Scrapper a few minutes ago. In terms of raw kills, Blasters are the better PvP killers, but only if they have Energy Manipulation. Without EM, they are roughly 60% of scrappers numbers. In terms of kills to death ratio, Blasters are slightly behind scrappers with EM, but competing with Defenders and Dominators for lowest value Note, that these are solo values! Things are very different in team play.
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So will Kill to Death be the new reasoning for power reductions.
While we dont even know what a baseline K-to-D is per AT.
K-To-D...teh nuw Smoke Grenade
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Couple things.
1) I was giving the AT mods, not considering build up/aim or external buffs. I did not specify a given power set. I think everyone who PvP's is aware of how dominant Energy Melee/Energy Manipulation can be.
2) "Damage as a secondary effect" If I don't Stun a person on my TF hit, they can typically escape. I could just be bad at energy melee, though (most of CoX PvP experience is Super Strength, Dark Melee, Claws, or Mind Control.)
3) Datamining -- I looked at Blaster/Scrapper a few minutes ago. In terms of raw kills, Blasters are the better PvP killers, but only if they have Energy Manipulation. Without EM, they are roughly 60% of scrappers numbers. In terms of kills to death ratio, Blasters are slightly behind scrappers with EM, but competing with Defenders and Dominators for lowest value Note, that these are solo values! Things are very different in team play.
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Consider Electric Blaster secondaries as well as Energy - I think you'll find they are quite compatible, just not nearly as common. With those #s, I have to wonder... are they where you think they should be? I would imagine Scrappers have the best, but do you find it a problem that one set out-performs them by 40%? (Derived from other Blasters being only 60% Total kill numbers of Scrappers).
Blasters kill a lot, and die a lot, just as I expected to see. I think since they ARE so much more vulnerable than Scrappers, somehow its only balanced if they got more kills than them, but alas, only Energy can claim that.
And yes, I do worry that EM will be nerfed, although it shouldn't, as the others should be brought up.
Thanks for eight fun years, Paragon.
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In terms of kills to death ratio, Blasters are slightly behind scrappers with EM, but competing with Defenders and Dominators for lowest value Note, that these are solo values!
[/ QUOTE ] Ok, pardon, but for some reason this comment confuses me. It's saying blasters are behind scrappers definately(slightly). But is it saying that they're down near dominators and defenders in having the worst survivability, or is it basically saying that dominators and defenders are suprisingly survivable in PvP?
MA Arcs: Yarmouth 1509 and 58812
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3) Datamining -- I looked at Blaster/Scrapper a few minutes ago. In terms of raw kills, Blasters are the better PvP killers, but only if they have Energy Manipulation. Without EM, they are roughly 60% of scrappers numbers. In terms of kills to death ratio, Blasters are slightly behind scrappers with EM, but competing with Defenders and Dominators for lowest value Note, that these are solo values! Things are very different in team play.
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What are you datamining for this? For example, in Siren's, you get stuff for killing people, and you lose nothing for dying. So I will often charge into the thick of a pack or port one person away and try to take them out with my ice/em, even if I know it's possible or probable I'll die in response. Even when low on health, I fight on, since defiance gives me a chance for a kill and dying means nothing.
As far as blaster secondaries, I think devices is quite servicable in pvp, although lacking buildup is a huge disadvantage. Then again, tp foe+trip mine is a pretty nice combo. One trick pony, but a NICE trick.
The others, well, both their attacks and their utility are a bit behind em. I mean, you can't compare conserve power vs burn.
There is something else though: EM is self selecting. It has a small edge over the other sets, for certain. However, players who play extensively in PvP are fully aware of such an edge, and therefore their characters (like my main PvP character) are built with this in mind. So people "dedicated" to pvp pick the best set even if the edge is small a disproportionate amount of the time. Casual players pick their sets based on concept, aesthetics, or whatever. Then they PvP. They lose more because PvP is a lark or an experiment for them, or perhaps a quest for a badge.
To verify this claim, simply data mine those PvP blasters who have /EM, and check the percentage who have Ice. Hardly proportional, eh?
Trying to interpret this is like trying to read tea leaves in a hurricane (pre-nerf). However, I share the sense of trepidation expressed by others. If there is one thing the devs have shown that they do not like, it is when one set is widely perceived to out-perform another and everyone flocks to it. It matters not whether the perception is reality or not - if *everyone* who PvP's starts playing /EM blasters then /EM is in for an adjustment (the devs have also shown that they remedy these cases by going after the high water mark, not by floating the rest of the boats).
Well, if everyone flocks to EM, then it must be because it outperforms the other sets. Perception fails in the face of reality.
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Couple things.
1) I was giving the AT mods, not considering build up/aim or external buffs. I did not specify a given power set. I think everyone who PvP's is aware of how dominant Energy Melee/Energy Manipulation can be.
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I take it that things like using ranged and melee attacks in attack chains were considered and then dps of non gapping chains were factored for both (so that rchg rates are done during animation, making animation a bigger factor on dps) . I also take it that things like tripmine, auto turret, voltaic sentinal, blazing aura, hotfeet were also in the comparision.
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2) "Damage as a secondary effect" If I don't Stun a person on my TF hit, they can typically escape. I could just be bad at energy melee, though (most of CoX PvP experience is Super Strength, Dark Melee, Claws, or Mind Control.)
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I take this combo was done: energy punch - bone smasher - total focus... to assure maximum toggle drops (if needed) and disorient chance.
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3) Datamining -- I looked at Blaster/Scrapper a few minutes ago. In terms of raw kills, Blasters are the better PvP killers, but only if they have Energy Manipulation. Without EM, they are roughly 60% of scrappers numbers. In terms of kills to death ratio, Blasters are slightly behind scrappers with EM, but competing with Defenders and Dominators for lowest value Note, that these are solo values! Things are very different in team play.
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I also take it that "regen" scrapper kills were taken out of the mix, if "regen" scrappers have higher kill rate then the other sets. I also take it this considers that stalkers likely have the most kills. And that most stalkers avoid attacking scrappers and tanks and focus on blasters and defenders. I.E. stalkers as a whole will likely attack 10 or so blasters for every 1 scrapper they fight. This to avoid factors like players fighting squishies so that they can get to 400 faster rather then if they can kill a non-shuishy but it may take longer. Or other things like trying to take out "threats" quickly to for your team. (like a healer mezze or toggle dropper being the target to kill, then after its out of the picture tying to take out others.) How often one dies can be a compliment in many ways also.
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I won't mind if they change the toggle dropping. I even won't mind if they did away with the stun chance in Energy Punch or Bonesmasher. But if they even look at changing the damage capability or any of the utility powers, I will be righteously pissed. The set is amazing in how it works together and I fell in love with it after a few levels. It's going to be the Million Blaster Walkout if anything huge happens to EM. I really don't think they'll do anything major to change it since they have said they want to buff the secondaries, so no one start jumping to conclusions yet. Go to the Test Server and post there 
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Blaster AT damage mod vs. Scrapper AT damage mod means nothing. The base damage of the actual attacks is what matters. How about we compare a non-crit Tier 9 Scrapper attack to a Blapper's Total Focus? The Scrapper will not come out on top by 12.5% on that test, I assure you.
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No they really won't, but compare it in relative terms where we assume they are fighting one another. Seeing as how you picked the single top melee attack that blasters have approx 9.9Bi (next best being thunderstrike at 8.26Bi) we should compare it to the best tier 9 scrapper attack, headsplitter approx 7.2Bi (normalized at 7.2x1.125= 8.1) or basically equal to thunderstrike from /elec manip
who's health bar is going to be impacted more from the other person's attack? The scrapper with 1600+ hp's (with dullpain cause aren't all scrapper /regin 
, or the blaster with 1050hps?
Also headsplitter recharges in about 70%of the time it takes Tf or thunderstrike to recharge.
Time is always an advantage of the scrapper in comparison to the blaster. The blaster MUST kill quickly or become greatly dissadvantaged against virtually every other AT in the game. Thus any AT that can prolong a fight with a blaster gains more and more of the upper hand (at least until aim and bu recharge 
) because of their non-damage powers becoming more useful over time.
You want to be more successful against blappers? Back off the second they attack you regardless of whether you saw them hit aim+buildup. Every AT in the game (except mm currently) can survive a fair number of attacks from any blaster that is not buffed by aim and/or build up. Just create some distance, for a few seconds while they waste their buff time, you often (but not always) will gain the upper hand once they are no longer buffed.
That's what my experience tells me anyway.
I would also be interested in seeing the stats on /energy manip vs /elec manip. /elec is much rarer, but they are very comparable in terms of damage, with /elec potentially coming out ahead. If /em is significantly ahead of /elec then the stuns need to be looked at and possibly addressed, but that would go for all AT's that have access to one form of /em or another.
Frosticus
Why? Clearly the indication is the Energy Manipulation is working far and away better than the other secondaries. Maybe because it actually does things a Blaster needs done to survive and function. It's something akin to proof that the other Blaster Secondaries need serious work to catch up.
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In terms of raw kills, Blasters are the better PvP killers, but only if they have Energy Manipulation. Without EM, they are roughly 60% of scrappers numbers.
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More proof that either...
1. /em is overpowered
OR
2. all the other secondaries need a lot of help (elec not as much as the "big crap three")
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Why? Clearly the indication is the Energy Manipulation is working far and away better than the other secondaries. Maybe because it actually does things a Blaster needs done to survive and function. It's something akin to proof that the other Blaster Secondaries need serious work to catch up.
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You sure about that. What is stated is that with energy blasters proform better then other AT's. Better does not mean equal.
Also the "other" factor to consider.
Number wise EM looks to be better, which may attract more "power gamers", power gamers, due to dedication, may be better pvpers then other players.
So it could be that a non EM blaster in the hands of a power gamer will fair just fine. But that most hardcore pvpers choose to play what they see as the most "optimized of builds"
Or new players post "what is the best pvp build" and get Ice/EM. So wanting to build a pvp toon they build Ice/EM and the players who donot pvp hardcore may build the diverse builds and bring them to pvp but they are not dedicated to pvp so do not optimize for it.
So sets that may function just as well with a different playstyle or approach are not being used as much, which results in lower numbers. etc etc. etc.
This is another "varibale" the devs seem to overlook.
Come on... use some sense here. Energy is popular because it's better, well-rounded and much more suited to PvP than the other sets. Everyone knows this. Everyone knows why this is. Don't be ridiculous and suggest it's a popularity contest.
EDIT: Besides, that's a non-quantifiable variable and honestly not all that applicable to this analysis. Your "variable" would have to be part of a census, which are impossible to conduct (and retain any sense of validity) in an MMO.
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In terms of kills to death ratio, Blasters are slightly behind scrappers with EM, but competing with Defenders and Dominators for lowest value Note, that these are solo values! Things are very different in team play.
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Raise your hand if you saw that one coming.
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Datamining -- I looked at Blaster/Scrapper a few minutes ago.
[/ QUOTE ] Any chance you could start a stickie which posts the stats by builds?
BS/Regen
DM/SR
Ice/En
Spine/SR
SS/EA...
We'd love to see that. And I can guarantee we'll do our best to make wild inferences and misinterpret the results every way possible.
I wonder who's ahead: doms or defenders.
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In terms of kills to death ratio, Blasters are slightly behind scrappers with EM, but competing with Defenders and Dominators for lowest value Note, that these are solo values! Things are very different in team play.
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Raise your hand if you saw that one coming.
[/ QUOTE ]I did. I got into it with Powerfist and various Stalkers about how Blasters are not the equal of Stalkers. Mez protection and defense mean you have to be brain dead to argue that Blasters are the same as Stalkers in PvP.
The problem is that a lot of old school PvPers are used to the Arena which weeds out all the sets that can't do the burst damage that is needed to win in PvP. Hence, people only saw /Em blasters and this became "blasters" in their world view.
Blasters are defenseless and by and large are sitting ducks in PvP. They can get mezzed and held from range and then subsquently wiped out in seconds. Without an Emp or Kin backing them up...they get worked. I'm not the least bit surprised that controllers outpeform non-/Em blaster.
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Come on... use some sense here. Energy is popular because it's better, well-rounded and much more suited to PvP than the other sets. Everyone knows this. Everyone knows why this is. Don't be ridiculous and suggest it's a popularity contest.
EDIT: Besides, that's a non-quantifiable variable and honestly not all that applicable to this analysis. Your "variable" would have to be part of a census, which are impossible to conduct (and retain any sense of validity) in an MMO.
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That is the point of my statement.
Energy is uber so it attacts more power or hardcore players. Which means the "best of pvpers" are not playing the other sets.
Saying the other sets are weak in pvp due to their "kill or get killed" ratio does not say much if the non- EM players in pvp are casual players and not hard core.
So saying EM > better the other blaster sets ... OK
But non EM< all scrappers when all the hardcore and "best" (for overall not absolute) pvpers are playing EM, is not accurate. Beacue what if all the hard core EM played elec or whatever.
And for blasters its more so. Because other sets may be more "AT" balanced for pvp within so you see hardcore pvp spines, BS, MA, DM, so their set as a whole has hardcore players through out.
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In terms of raw kills, Blasters are the better PvP killers, but only if they have Energy Manipulation. Without EM, they are roughly 60% of scrappers numbers.
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More proof that either...
1. /em is overpowered
OR
2. all the other secondaries need a lot of help (elec not as much as the "big crap three")
[/ QUOTE ]The problem with #2 is that you're limiting your design criteria to 1v1 PvP. It would be folly to modify the other sets simply so that non-/EM's can compete in 1v1 PvP. Castle's stats are only about 1v1...
While Ice/ maybe be "cool" in PvP zones...give me Fire/ in a base raid everyday and twice on Tuesdays...when we'll be scheudling our raids.
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I wonder who's ahead: doms or defenders.
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I'd guess perhaps defs, with their ability to use +Dam or -Res to boost their damage. Though as I said in a thread about something being better than Trick Arrow, being faster than a three legged dog isn't anything to get excited about.
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If kill to death ratio really mattered in pvp wouldnt ATs like Defenders and Dominators need some real positive adjusting?
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Hey now... I kill steal all the time on my defender! But really all I'm for is to pad the other team's kill count.
Currently roleplaying, badgehunting, and laughing at the PvPers of CoX. lol, PvP.
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