That's all credible too... What I really should have put forward as a metric, is Mini-samples taken from 1 team at a time measured against their total Rep earned while in that team -- dataming the number of deaths of each person of the team and put into AT category, and then averaged later with any samples way outside the mean being discarded...but that's really labor-intensive
But I need to clarify that by "lacking deterrants", I'm not saying ALL Defenders are "Helpless"... none of them are Helpless until an /EM stalker manges to TP-Foe one of them and followup with a Stun. As long as they're behind the front line or on their front-line with some sort of Stun protection, they're never helpless in the vast majority of PvP situations.
Then again I could say the same thing about a number of stalkers who thought they could sneak around my Grav Controller when I was teamed with a Devices Blaster and */Empath who kept CM on me... at one point I managed to Wormhole 3 of them at once onto a huge clump of trip-mines. They couldn't stun me, but my Stun comined with the Detoggling of tripmines stunned all of them.
...That's the Defender and Dominator's cross to bear right there. It's all a matter of how much actual time you and your team have to respond. And if we saw the most accurate picture possible through datamining, I'm guranteeing it would show that Defenders and Doms don't have the Deterrants that other classes have which buy them enough time to escape quick deaths... and I'm not talking about a double-stealthed AS that they never saw coming... I mean seeing a train bearing down on you and not being able to slow it down one bit.
*/Devs have Caltrops and Mines.
Blappers have toggle droppers as Melee deterrents.
Tankers and Scrappers have Mez-Resists and +HP buffs as deterrents.
Controllers have Crit-Mezzes, Superior -SPD powers, and Debuffs incase the first 2 fail.
Stalkers have Placate-->AS and Status resists
Brutes have Fury (but it's Bugged currently 
)
Corruptors have more HP's than defenders and better offensive blasts...Plus Scourge.
Keldians have Dwarf forms.
Now... Storm Defenders and Plant Doms have a number of tricks in PvP that work to great effect... but all other Defenders and Doms must rely on their teammates for survivability in PvP... which anyone who's been on a PvP PuG knows... is a total gamble.
...I hope that clarifies what a real Deterrent is and why most Doms and Defenders lack them.
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3) Datamining -- I looked at Blaster/Scrapper a few minutes ago. In terms of raw kills, Blasters are the better PvP killers, but only if they have Energy Manipulation. Without EM, they are roughly 60% of scrappers numbers. In terms of kills to death ratio, Blasters are slightly behind scrappers with EM, but competing with Defenders and Dominators for lowest value Note, that these are solo values! Things are very different in team play.
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A lot of folks seem to believe that energy manipulation on blasters is overpowered, both in respect to other ATs and other blaster builds.
Even in PvE the sheer power that energy manipulation carries outweighs the powers of fire manipulation or the adaptiveness of traps.
Statesman hasn't talked (ranted) about game balance in awhile, but this looks like a major contender...
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Statesman hasn't talked (ranted) about game balance in awhile, but this looks like a major contender..
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for the other secondary sets to be modeled after when toggle dropping is fixed . Your right.
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Fixed it for you.
I know I am in the minority but I think the balance achieved by toggle dropping is fine as it is currently. No need to reduce toggle dropping although the game mechanic could be made more fun for all parties.
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That's all credible too... What I really should have put forward as a metric, is Mini-samples taken from 1 team at a time measured against their total Rep earned while in that team -- dataming the number of deaths of each person of the team and put into AT category, and then averaged later with any samples way outside the mean being discarded...but that's really labor-intensive
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I don't think it's a bad metric, but mostly limited by the resource-intensiveness of data-collection, as you point out, and the corollary that such resource-intensive data collection would probably limit the total n of such data. Remember that part of the premise of PvP itself is that player performance may be wildly variable, due to skill or particular team dynamics.
As a side note, there are statistical reasons for removing outliers, but there are plenty other reasons for keeping them in, as well. Simple, widely-used tests of statistical significance -- like the Students' t-test or Analysis of Variance, often make simple concessions for wide variations, or non-normal distrubtions.
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But I need to clarify that by "lacking deterrants", I'm not saying ALL Defenders are "Helpless"... none of them are Helpless until an /EM stalker manges to TP-Foe one of them and followup with a Stun. As long as they're behind the front line or on their front-line with some sort of Stun protection, they're never helpless in the vast majority of PvP situations.
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This is a fair concession -- I find it rather hilarious that in my most recent trips to Sirens' and 'burg, for some reason, my opponents keep thinking to try TP-ganking my Stormie. Doing it once, and getting Hurricaned is one thing. Doing it twice just smacks of cruelty.
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...That's the Defender and Dominator's cross to bear right there. It's all a matter of how much actual time you and your team have to respond. And if we saw the most accurate picture possible through datamining, I'm guranteeing it would show that Defenders and Doms don't have the Deterrants that other classes have which buy them enough time to escape quick deaths... and I'm not talking about a double-stealthed AS that they never saw coming... I mean seeing a train bearing down on you and not being able to slow it down one bit.
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Consider the "glass cannon" model for how Blasters are supposed to perform. Part of that problem was partly mitigated by the boost to Blaster HP. However, no small part of the adaptive response by the PvP playerbase comes about from teaming -- pocket Emps and other castable Mez Prots are almost indispensable for Blasters in PvP. In that regard, we hav ea rather clear example of the playerbase widely adapting strategies to counter the weaknesses of that AT.
I'd argue that the "glass buffer" performance of Defenders requires precisely that sort of thinking -- reliance on teammates in order to plug the gaps inherent in each AT.
Some of the best teams I've encountered in PvP are the ones who manage to manage to keep their Defenders safe. As soon as their Defenders start taking hits from a given player, guess who suddenly becomes a prime target for counter-attack?
Defenders being the "deterrent-lite" AT require support from other ATs (Tankers, are you listening?) to keep going, and that means PvP aggro management. Controllers get to provide their own aggro management, by virtue of their primary. Defenders get some tools in that regard, but can you honestly think of a better use for Tanker Taunt in PvP? Given the imminent changes to Gauntlet for PvP, that tactic should be even more useful.
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Now... Storm Defenders and Plant Doms have a number of tricks in PvP that work to great effect... but all other Defenders and Doms must rely on their teammates for survivability in PvP... which anyone who's been on a PvP PuG knows... is a total gamble.
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Which is fair. But we've come to accept that Blasters require Defender (or Controller) help to stay PvP survivable, why shouldn't that particular table be turned?
I know everyone always points an angry finger at Energy Melee, but Electric Melee is just as deadly. A quick look at the big numbers:
----------------
For the record Havok Punch is IDENTICAL to Bone Smasher...
Bone Smaher: 7.22 BI / 1.5 secs Activation / 13.5 endurance
Havok Punch: 7.22 BI / 1.5 secs Activation / 13.5 endurance
-----------------------
Thunderstrike is 7.11 BI of PURE ENERGY DAMAGE. This power is IDENTICAL to Total Focus but it doesn't have the additional 2.2 BI of Smashing Damage. This is more than fair because, Energy doesn't have the attack chain of Electricity. I've played both sets, and without an "external attack" from another powerset (and there aren't too many with 5+ BIs) Electricity can unload a SUPERIOR attack chain for DMG/DPS.
Here we go... (just using the powerset's main powers)
ENERGY
Total Focus 9.88 dmg / 3.3 secs
Bone Smasher 7.22 dmg / 1.5 secs
Energy Punch 5.44 dmg / 0.57 secs
Power Thrust 2.22 dmg / 1.00 secs
Totals: 24.76 dmg / 6.37 secs
ELECTRICITY
Thunder Strike 7.11 dmg / 3.3 secs
Shocking Grasp 4.99 dmg / 1.0 secs
Havok Punch 7.22 dmg / 1.5 secs
Charged Brawl 5.44 / 0.57 secs
Total: 24.76 dmg / 6.37 secs
Hmmm.... that appears to be awfully similar. In addition, Electricity has ANOTHER attack, Electric Fence, which offers a hold, end drain, 2.7 dmg, and 1.17 sec activation time. Furthermore, Electricity offers Stuns, Disorients, Toggle Dropping, Endurance Drains, nifty holds, etc throughout the lineup. Energy only offers knock-back and disorient. And yes, there is equal synergy for each set when it comes to stakcing MAGs.
In summary, perhaps Energy Melee is more popular for "conept reasons," but Electric Melee can bring it just as hard and with more utility.
Cheers,
SUN
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Some of the best teams I've encountered in PvP are the ones who manage to manage to keep their Defenders safe. As soon as their Defenders start taking hits from a given player, guess who suddenly becomes a prime target for counter-attack?
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Flamer,
Were you there in SC when CT and I were double-bubbling the Carls (and related affiliates)? I'm not sure if the non-bubblers noticed it so much, but the other team(s) had basically stopped trying to attack you and the 6 double-bubbled folks and were instead racking up a surprising number of kills against the bubblers.
The problem boils down to this: even if a team has two buff [censored], the buff [censored] will always be squishier than their teammates and, therefore, will always be the first and easiest targets to take out.
At least against organized opposition.
That ice corruptor was shredding your bubblers. If we were both dropped, and you guys didn't have two DBs giving you strong mez protection, well ...
Defenders are funny. It takes, from what I've seen, 3 or 4 to hit a critical mass of buffs and debuffs to keep each other safe. Once you get 6 or 7, it's just insane. I keep coming back to the SC's event in CoV. With 7 or 8 defenders, we could take on 20+ villains without breaking a sweat. 3 dispersions + clear mind meant there was 0 chance for us being mezzed en masse. With repel and repulsion field out, no pets could get near us, AS was nearly impossible to get off, melee toggles would get dropped, we had enough +end buffs to never run dry, enough heals to mitigate any lucky hits, 2 sonics meant we took nearly no damage, and 7 tactics meant we could see everything.
But the instant one of us left the "death bubble", he was dropped.
It's kinda like defense. Adding 6% defense to someone who has none isn't worth much. Adding 6% to someone who has 39 already means a lot. I kinda' see defenders as being that 6% ... the first one is better than a boot to the head. But the eighth turns the team into gods.
And that's kinda' the problem; defenders stack very, very nicely. If they were any better on their own, they'd be unkillable in groups of two or three, and groups of eight would simply be gank-fests. Consider having 2 stormies, 2 bubblers, 2 sonics, and kins on a team. That'd just be ... nuts.
And, once again, I'm at a loss for how to fix defender squishiness ... but, also, I'm pretty sure that defenders weren't meant to come in pairs since we can only log one toon in at a time with our accounts.
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CoX will be a better place with EM adjusted.
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Go home, you nerfherder. Blasters have been literally dying for the other secondaries to be brought up to EM standards. Nerfing EM is the wrong direction to go, bringing other secondaries up to EM standard is the right direction.
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The same was said for scrapper (Regen) and tank (INV) defenses. Sadly, the devs take the easy road and nerf to bring one set down rather that buff many sets to bring them all up in strength. Thinking that the other blaster secondaries will be made equal to EM is wishful thinking.
Shard Warrior - 50 MA/Regen/BM Scrapper
Founding Member and Leader : Shadow-Force
Co-Leader: Council of Heroes
"Whatever evils come this way... we will be there to stop them."
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People people... why scream nerf... scream buff. Perhaps it isnt EM that is overpowered but the other sets underpowered?
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it just seems more likely that 1 set is overpowered rather than 3 being underpowered IMHO.
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There is nothing particularly overpowered about stalker EM.
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You're crazy.
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Given the fact that all the EM attacks suck except the last 2 what do you expect? I have played as an Inv/EM tanker and it was a hard road. Can you imagine only being able to tickle your enemies to death for 35 levels? The only way they could nerf EM they would have to totally redo the set, and move the powers around because the attacks are pretty weak as they are until ET and TF.
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cry me a river. can you imaging tickling your foes for 50 lvls?
/warmace tank here.
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People people... why scream nerf... scream buff. Perhaps it isnt EM that is overpowered but the other sets underpowered?
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it just seems more likely that 1 set is overpowered rather than 3 being underpowered IMHO.
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Considering that the developers have already acknowledged that the other sets are underperforming, I disagree.
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People people... why scream nerf... scream buff. Perhaps it isnt EM that is overpowered but the other sets underpowered?
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it just seems more likely that 1 set is overpowered rather than 3 being underpowered IMHO.
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The data _castle_ showed says that only a ?/nrg Blaster is comparable to Scrappers solo in PVP. All other Blaster secondaries put them at the level of a Defender solo in PVP. Granted, Scrappers are supposed to be the solo Kings, but range should put meleers at a disadvantage. So that shows to me that only ?/nrg is at the level Blasters should be versus Scrappers. But, that is just me.
Basic Scrapper Info in Issue 7 (draft)
Basic Tanker Info in Issue 7 (draft)
The Harsh Reality of PVP
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People people... why scream nerf... scream buff. Perhaps it isnt EM that is overpowered but the other sets underpowered?
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it just seems more likely that 1 set is overpowered rather than 3 being underpowered IMHO.
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Considering that the developers have already acknowledged that the other sets are underperforming, I disagree.
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based on castles post in this thread i would say that both are true. em is overpowered and the others are underpowered. there seems to be maybe a middle ground.
the change to toggle dropping may be the fix.
i am speaking strictly from a PvP perspective.
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CoX will be a better place with EM adjusted.
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It would also be better if all Controler and defender toggles required per hit chances rather then being Automatic like so much of Rad is.
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All toggle debuffs are like that. Toggle debuffs are trivially easy to break though, since you can just move 300 ft and they drop.
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I agree with the exception of Snowstorm. An automatic, almost universially unresisted debuff to speed and flight. If you aren't a SJ user, this power is pretty ugly. Note that this is not a request for nerfage (there are lots of ugly powers); I'm just pointing it out as an obvious outlier.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Corruptors don't have more HP than Defenders....
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
"Tangentially, I'm curious as to how well self-described "Offender" builds perform in PvP, both solo and teamed, in comparison to more team-oriented builds." -- Flaming1
Happy to oblige. I created a Dark/Psi defender specifically as a psi "offender." One on one against an invul brute in Siren's, his healing powers stopped me from finishing him off, even with Fear. It turns into this long, drawn out affair that ends when I run out of End.
My Dark/Psi defender is not the anti-tanker or anti-brute I'd hoped. I'd expect similar results with a Mind/Psi Dom. So while in PvE the psi weakness in invul is telling, it PvP... it's a myth.
Team vs. Team a defender's just this massive agro-magnet.
"The problem is simply that some high burst damage sets can kill in one rotation of their good powers. High burst damage isn't a problem, as long as you can't kill in one burst. EM compares somewhat poorly to some other sets when it comes to damage over time. But in a PvP setting, this never comes into play...." -- Circuit_Breaker
Couldn't agree more. In this game, a /NRG blapper can consistently knock out a brute in two seconds flat, every time. Can Havok consistently knock out the Hulk? The damage to hitpoint ratio is so absolutely inconsistent with comic books I sometimes wonder if Statesman, Castle and Geko have ever opened one.
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In this game, a /NRG blapper can consistently knock out a brute in two seconds flat, every time.
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Preposterous, you're exagerating immensely.
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CoX will be a better place with EM adjusted.
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Go home, you nerfherder. Blasters have been literally dying for the other secondaries to be brought up to EM standards. Nerfing EM is the wrong direction to go, bringing other secondaries up to EM standard is the right direction.
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The same was said for scrapper (Regen) and tank (INV) defenses. Sadly, the devs take the easy road and nerf to bring one set down rather that buff many sets to bring them all up in strength. Thinking that the other blaster secondaries will be made equal to EM is wishful thinking.
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While this is historically correct, I believe that the Development Team has noted the underperformance of other Blaster Secondaries and will be making the adjustments in the appropriate direction.
As far as EM being overpowered, the largest complaint is the toggle dropping ability of EM vis-a-vis PvP. Once toggle dropping gets toned down, EM should be fine for PvP.
Of course, it is becomming clearer and clearer that this game will be balanced around PvP come hell or high water, much to many peoples chagrin.
Sign It : http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
Sunchild:
A few corrections.
First, the BI you have for Thunderstrike is wrong. It's actually closer to 8.2BI these days. The Hero Planners are BOTH wrong on it; they're wrong about a lot of things. Don't rely on either.
Second, Electric Fence is NOT a Hold power. It's an Immobilize. There's a difference.
Third, "Stun" and "Disorient" are the same thing.
40062: The World's Worst PUG
84008: Jenkins's Guide to Super-Villainy
230187: The Hero of Kings Row
No H8 - 08.04.10
@Circuit Boy - Moderator - Pride global chat channel
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Were you there in SC when CT and I were double-bubbling the Carls (and related affiliates)? I'm not sure if the non-bubblers noticed it so much, but the other team(s) had basically stopped trying to attack you and the 6 double-bubbled folks and were instead racking up a surprising number of kills against the bubblers.
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I'm not certain.
Though, it should be clear that my own recent experiences in PvP, and the whole point of this particular thread tangent, is the point that Defenders are a preferred target.
My argument is that the attractiveness of Defenders isn't just their relative squishiness, it's also that the whole team multiplicatively suffers from their absence.
A team that can keep its buffers alive more consistently is probably more likely to perform better than a team that can't. I don't think of this as a hard-and-fast PvP rule, but I suspect most players would at least agree it's a good guideline to follow.
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Defenders are funny. It takes, from what I've seen, 3 or 4 to hit a critical mass of buffs and debuffs to keep each other safe. Once you get 6 or 7, it's just insane. I keep coming back to the SC's event in CoV. With 7 or 8 defenders, we could take on 20+ villains without breaking a sweat.
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You forget the well-taken point that Controllers can fill in for a Defender in this model rather readily. The contention I've had in this thread, deferred upthread, is with the notion that the teamed Defender is completely without recourse for his relative squishiness. There are defensive options for Defenders, even if they're shared with Controllers, or dependent on assistance from teammates.
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And that's kinda' the problem; defenders stack very, very nicely. If they were any better on their own, they'd be unkillable in groups of two or three, and groups of eight would simply be gank-fests. Consider having 2 stormies, 2 bubblers, 2 sonics, and kins on a team. That'd just be ... nuts.
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I've had great success with as few as two buffsets on a team. The point is very well taken, though -- that as buffsets increase on a team, the relative bonuses increase geometrically. Note that the "critical mass" of Defenders being able to do without Tanks or Controllers or what have you, is not unlike the all-Defender teams that are popular in some quarters in the PvE game.
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And, once again, I'm at a loss for how to fix defender squishiness ... but, also, I'm pretty sure that defenders weren't meant to come in pairs since we can only log one toon in at a time with our accounts.
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Well, we're at a point in the game where a lot of players -- serious, casual, PvPers, PvEers, have a potentially extensive stable of toons to draw from to fill out a PvP team.
I've been of the opinion for quite some time now that no small part of the "Heroes > Villains" dogma that goes around here, especially in PvP, is largely due to the overrepresentation of Stalkers on the Villainside. Less Stalkers and more balance might not relieve all the imbalance (HOs and extra slots might only account for part of the rest), but I suspect it'd go a long way.
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The same was said for scrapper (Regen) and tank (INV) defenses. Sadly, the devs take the easy road and nerf to bring one set down rather that buff many sets to bring them all up in strength. Thinking that the other blaster secondaries will be made equal to EM is wishful thinking.
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If you selectively ignore the End cost and toggle-stacking buffs to DA and Stone Armor, the new scaling Dam Resist for SR, and imminent changes to Defense scaling for all Defense sets for I7.
The Devs-only-nerf claim is patently untrue.
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The data _castle_ showed says that only a ?/nrg Blaster is comparable to Scrappers solo in PVP. All other Blaster secondaries put them at the level of a Defender solo in PVP. Granted, Scrappers are supposed to be the solo Kings, but range should put meleers at a disadvantage. So that shows to me that only ?/nrg is at the level Blasters should be versus Scrappers. But, that is just me.
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Not really, it showed that the mean of the other Blaster secondaries was 60% Scrapper levels, by the one metric he describes, and only solo.
We can't conclude beyond that, given that information.
We can reasonably conjecture that among those sets, there's another level of variability between them. For instance, we imagine that /Elec and /Dev probably perform better than 60% of Scrapper killcounts, whereas /Fire probably performs worse than 60% of the Scrapper line.
Mind you, that 60% is probably some summation (an arithmetic mean, a geometric mean, or median) of Scrapper sets, which may have some consequential variability, as well.
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Happy to oblige. I created a Dark/Psi defender specifically as a psi "offender." One on one against an invul brute in Siren's, his healing powers stopped me from finishing him off, even with Fear. It turns into this long, drawn out affair that ends when I run out of End.
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Some of the most protracted 1v1s I've seen in the Arena have been between a DM/Fire Brute and a Fire/Kin Corruptor.
Seriously. Total stalemate.
No small part of that is due to the skill with which those particular players wield those particular powersets, but it almost seems like a rather classic case of Irresistible Force v Immovable Object.
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Team vs. Team a defender's just this massive agro-magnet.
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Arguably, that's due in no small part to the relative ineffectiveness of Dark/ in PvP. If you were running a Storm/Psi, by comparison, I find it likely you'd be singing a different tune.
If I may draw a slightly askance analogy, it'd be like claiming that my /Fire Blaster's underperformance in PvP is a sign that Blasters need to kill-kill-kill more in PvP and are deserving of a global buff -- irrespective of the exceptional performance of /Energy in PvP.
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Couldn't agree more. In this game, a /NRG blapper can consistently knock out a brute in two seconds flat, every time.
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I'm afraid I have to concur with Bluntzman -- I'm not sure I've seen an Eng Blapper two-shot a Brute, at least not without Insps or Con/Def buffs/debuffs helping.
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If you selectively ignore the End cost and toggle-stacking buffs to DA and Stone Armor, the new scaling Dam Resist for SR, and imminent changes to Defense scaling for all Defense sets for I7.
The Devs-only-nerf claim is patently untrue.
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Many of those changes were necessary due to the GDN of i5 stacking with ED. Sets may not have performed at all had they not made them. There is a difference. When it comes to sets being more powerful/effective, the devs nerf to bring it in line with the rest, not buff everything else.
Shard Warrior - 50 MA/Regen/BM Scrapper
Founding Member and Leader : Shadow-Force
Co-Leader: Council of Heroes
"Whatever evils come this way... we will be there to stop them."
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Of course, it is becomming clearer and clearer that this game will be balanced around PvP come hell or high water, much to many peoples chagrin.
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If anything, I'd argue that the many problems with PvP balance, as generously, but hardly comprehensively, detailed in this thread are evidence that it works the other way around.
PvP balance suffers primarily because the game is mostly balanced around PvE.
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I think he was getting at bounty and rep being shared by a team and then comparing how many times the ATs died. That is different from kills which are not shared by teams.
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Okay... maybe that too. But the difference between Rep and Kills is one of them has a timer on it and the other doesn't. Either way, it's impossible to gauge who's contributing to actual kills, and who's hiding in the hospital leeching b/c they don't have any mez/+PER protection of their own.
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Both of you (Ilr & Concern) make excellent points in this regard. But in the end, we're only looking at alternative metrics for Kills, in order to account for the fact that team dynamics may obscure the contribution of buff-heavy team-oriented support builds.
In either case, the example you present gives a false negative outcome -- the Leecher doesn't contribute to team Kills, even indirectly -- so if anything, Leeching behavior will minimize apparent contributions of a given powerset to his team's ability to Kill.
We presume from any of these metrics, that a team with buff/debuffer will score more Kills (or whatever) than a team without said buff/debuffer. The Leeching model you propose only decreases that apparent contribution, since the teammate in question isn't actually contributing.
Furthermore, there's no reason to believe or assume that such behavior partitions to a given buff/debuff set; there's no reason to imagine that Dark Defenders would have more reason to Hospital Leech than an Emp Controller, let's say.
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If it was up to me, I'd Calc these stats off of 2 very specific things:
# of Deaths per hour while 200ft or less from a Teammate
PvP Rep earned per hour.
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This metric you propose definitely has strengths over raw killcounts, or what-have-you, but it has its own problems, too. Buffing platforms could look insubstantial from this metric -- hiding an Emp inside a Hurricane or Force Bubble, and letting Blasters and Scrappers run wild, often outside of that 200' range, once they've picked up CM or Fort or whatever.
Ultimately, the metrics one considers just about anywhere in the game are simply representations of what actually goes on. They're models, and aren't guaranteed 100% accuracy in depicting actual player practices. The particular outcomes one chooses to look at will invariably color their interpretation in some way; and each has their strengths and weaknesses in minimizing that inaccuracy.
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Of Course a Blaster or Scrapper or Stalker or whatever is more likely to biff it when they leave the safety of their team to chase down the runners or take another team on...that's soloing but with the "I'm still in a team flag" up. No no.. I'm more interested in who's really getting GANKED here... sitting directly adjacent to their teammates or following them in, and then getting whacked so fast their teammates can't do anything about it. ...that's the kind of datamining I could trust.
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It's been reasonably argued by some that such "ganking" (a slight misuse of the word, mind you) is part of the premise for the Stalker AT. Hence, the Stealth component of the AT's very purpose.