One shotting has got to end
By
Acanous_Quietus,
Posted on: 2005-12-07 01:38 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Quick question:
Is Caltrops + (Trip Mine * 3) a "One Shot" or is it 4 attacks?
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In my book no that is not a one shot unless followed by a tp foe onto the mines because that gives you no chance to fight where as if you accidentally or were strategicaly moved onto it was by your choice and you deserve the damage.
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I'm sorry but that's not the Stalker's problem. The options are there for all builds - whether you choose to use them or not is up to you.
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That's just it. You're right it's not the Stalkers problem. The options aren't there for all builds though. What is the advice for players whose viable PvE builds don't contain these powers?
Stay out of PvP? Start a new character?
Doesn't that seem a bit harsh?
Pinnacle - Atlantean L33 Eng/Eng Blaster, Aeonian L25 Rad/Dar Defender, Darksaw L38 Kat/Da Scrapper, Purple Dynamite L25 Inv/Eng Tanker
Freedom - Volcanic Force L50 Fire/FF Controller, Violent Force L30 Fire/Psi Dominator, Tabubua L24 Claw/Regen Stalker
Victory - Calistus L26 SS/EA Brute
this is going to sound like covered ground here, but believe me it's not. what is it that you think is broken, exactly? is it just stalkers because a.s. lets them 1-shot you? or is it that there are situations the game lets you get into where you can be killed without a chance to respond? if you don't like stalkers 1-shotting you then i can understand where you're coming from, but you know we can be 1-shotted by a lot of things, not just stalkers. and i get the feeling it isn't really 1-shotting that's got you concerned...it's really situations where you can be killed with no warning or ability to respond.
i sympathize there, but again there's no reasonable way to prevent this from happening in pvp. for example, we could cut stalker a.s. damage in half and stalkers will just find another way to kill us without allowing us a chance to respond. if you don't believe me just ask for examples, a lot of folks can likely rattle out a list of tactics that can be used to kill unprepared squishies without allowing for response time. and if the devs put in a safeguard so we as targets couldn't go from near-full-health to 0 from one attack, then someone could just tweak their attack chain and still kill us. without allowing for a response. if the devs tried to go even further and add on a period of "response time" there where your last hp can't be taken by someone after an otherwise-1-shot...then that person can just open their attack sequence with an attack that would prevent you from responding for an extended period of time (ex. knockdown/knockback, which prevents *any response at all*) and then follow up with other attacks to finish the job. i really don't think you can have a reasonable pvp combat system with effective guards built into the system to prevent this.
if you're really trying to single out stalkers, and you're saying that assassin strike is too powerful, i just don't think you can. the entire at is built around the idea of letting them kill quickly without much warning. what do you want? do you want a.s. to allow the target--say--a half second of guaranteed response time? i really don't think it'll help...believe me they'll find a way to catch you by surprise still. and giving a target much more response time than that would kill the utility of stalkers. it really doesn't take much "help" from the at's powers to allow someone to kill without warning or the provision of response time...because stalkers are just one example of an a.t. that's capable of this. and with stalkers alone, i guarantee that if any of us wanted to, we could get around any reasonable dev attempt to prevent stalkers from being able to kill someone without warning or response time. sure, they could design in a grace period where you cannot die, and stalkers could just simply use strategy and an attack sequence to minimize or completely remove your ability to actually respond during that time (reasonably at least).
so the deal is, people are going to be able to gank squishies without much warning, a.s. or no a.s. at all. it's inherent in pvp with toon types that are different enough through hitpoints to make things interesting. it's a whole different ballgame though if you want to start talking about playing in a way that *minimizes the ability* of someone to kill you without warning. you can do this with any a.t., squishies included. sure, you won't always be able to prevent getting ganked without warning. but it's like home or network security: you can make yourself a really hard target, and stalkers looking for easy prey may just look elsewhere 
. and that gives you more time to...say...hunt stalkers for revenge.
ps. to the people here going on the offensive: what's with all the nastiness? i mean, really?
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I'm sorry but that's not the Stalker's problem. The options are there for all builds - whether you choose to use them or not is up to you.
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That's just it. You're right it's not the Stalkers problem. The options aren't there for all builds though. What is the advice for players whose viable PvE builds don't contain these powers?
Stay out of PvP? Start a new character?
Doesn't that seem a bit harsh?
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I believe that any build should be able to hold it's own in PvP, that's not the case though. Many of heroes can't PvP to save their lives (including my AR/Dev) because I refuse change them around solely for PvP and I had to accept that. Some builds are naturally going to do better than others.
If you know you're going to PvP you have three options:
1. Build for PvP and do very well.
2. Don't build for PvP and take your chances.
3. Make a build balanced for PvE and PvP.
I think I'm in almost total agreement with you except that I think players knowing that there is even a small chance to respond is key. A good Stalker against a poor player should be able to 'gank' about 100% of the time. Against an average player? 80-90%. I don't believe that to be the case at this time. Player response should also put the Stalker at risk; those able to remove themselves from combat straight after an AS should either: Not get a kill or be at risk of serious harm.
Pinnacle - Atlantean L33 Eng/Eng Blaster, Aeonian L25 Rad/Dar Defender, Darksaw L38 Kat/Da Scrapper, Purple Dynamite L25 Inv/Eng Tanker
Freedom - Volcanic Force L50 Fire/FF Controller, Violent Force L30 Fire/Psi Dominator, Tabubua L24 Claw/Regen Stalker
Victory - Calistus L26 SS/EA Brute
I've watched /Dev Blasters in Warburg, stand on a ledge and lay mines in one spot, then drop caltrops there, and use TP Foe to port an enemy right on it. I watched a Blaster instantly kill a Scrapper doing that.
For the record, just hitting AS alone can't one shot anyone. You need to use Build Up first, which your enemies can some time hear a Stalker do and run away from the sound before the Stalker can hit AS.
Also for the record, even though a Blaster can one shot a Stalker, a Stalker can't one shot a Blaster. Even in Warburg where the heroes had -15% Res and the Villains had +15% Damage(because of us villains having no one else our level to team with so we solo missions in Warburg for the extra xp), but even with all those bonuses, and my hitting a tiny red with three green damage SOs in AS, I still couldn't one shot a Blaster... though I left them with a sliver. If they hit respits before my next attack hit, then I'd have to run. But if they panicked and ran or stayed to fight thinking maybe Defiance would kick in, then I just needed one follow up attack to hit and they were gone.
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I think I'm in almost total agreement with you except that I think players knowing that there is even a small chance to respond is key. A good Stalker against a poor player should be able to 'gank' about 100% of the time. Against an average player? 80-90%. I don't believe that to be the case at this time. Player response should also put the Stalker at risk; those able to remove themselves from combat straight after an AS should either: Not get a kill or be at risk of serious harm.
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Then I'd like the chance to be able to respond to being slept, held, confused, taunted, sniped, ice patched, critted, and debuffed.
Deal?
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I've watched /Dev Blasters in Warburg, stand on a ledge and lay mines in one spot, then drop caltrops there, and use TP Foe to port an enemy right on it. I watched a Blaster instantly kill a Scrapper doing that.
For the record, just hitting AS alone can't one shot anyone. You need to use Build Up first, which your enemies can some time hear a Stalker do and run away from the sound before the Stalker can hit AS.
Also for the record, even though a Blaster can one shot a Stalker, a Stalker can't one shot a Blaster. Even in Warburg where the heroes had -15% Res and the Villains had +15% Damage(because of us villains having no one else our level to team with so we solo missions in Warburg for the extra xp), but even with all those bonuses, and my hitting a tiny red with three green damage SOs in AS, I still couldn't one shot a Blaster... though I left them with a sliver. If they hit respits before my next attack hit, then I'd have to run. But if they panicked and ran or stayed to fight thinking maybe Defiance would kick in, then I just needed one follow up attack to hit and they were gone.
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Admittedly, I haven't got the chance to run around in Warburg with my Stalker yet, but I don't see how a Blaster can't be one-shotted there. From my understanding, Warburg exemps you to lvl38(?), so any Blasters with APP res shields like Temp Inv or Fire Shield don't have access to them.
Now I have come across Blasters who I couldn't one-shot in Siren's, but I won't sit here and say that I don't one-shot seven out of ten Blasters.
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I think I'm in almost total agreement with you except that I think players knowing that there is even a small chance to respond is key. A good Stalker against a poor player should be able to 'gank' about 100% of the time. Against an average player? 80-90%. I don't believe that to be the case at this time. Player response should also put the Stalker at risk; those able to remove themselves from combat straight after an AS should either: Not get a kill or be at risk of serious harm.
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Then I'd like the chance to be able to respond to being slept, held, confused, taunted, sniped, ice patched, critted, and debuffed.
Deal?
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Well Slows and debuffs aren't directly fatal but otherwise sure thing. A break free is a response to mez effects, other effects need a response too.
Pinnacle - Atlantean L33 Eng/Eng Blaster, Aeonian L25 Rad/Dar Defender, Darksaw L38 Kat/Da Scrapper, Purple Dynamite L25 Inv/Eng Tanker
Freedom - Volcanic Force L50 Fire/FF Controller, Violent Force L30 Fire/Psi Dominator, Tabubua L24 Claw/Regen Stalker
Victory - Calistus L26 SS/EA Brute
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I think I'm in almost total agreement with you except that I think players knowing that there is even a small chance to respond is key. A good Stalker against a poor player should be able to 'gank' about 100% of the time. Against an average player? 80-90%. I don't believe that to be the case at this time. Player response should also put the Stalker at risk; those able to remove themselves from combat straight after an AS should either: Not get a kill or be at risk of serious harm.
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Then I'd like the chance to be able to respond to being slept, held, confused, taunted, sniped, ice patched, critted, and debuffed.
Deal?
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Well Slows and debuffs aren't directly fatal but otherwise sure thing. A break free is a response to mez effects, other effects need a response too.
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Just like yellow insps are a response to Stalkers being hidden.
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I think I'm in almost total agreement with you except that I think players knowing that there is even a small chance to respond is key.
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How about a guaranteed chance to avoid the situation entirely?
That would be what stacking +perception does...
As said previously, yellows are not a response to a Stalker attack. They are a precaution. Yellow insps at this time are roughly equivalent to the old discipline insp. Remember how popular they were?
I don't think players should be able to avoid AS entirely and in a reliable manner. This would cause Stalkers too many problems.
Pinnacle - Atlantean L33 Eng/Eng Blaster, Aeonian L25 Rad/Dar Defender, Darksaw L38 Kat/Da Scrapper, Purple Dynamite L25 Inv/Eng Tanker
Freedom - Volcanic Force L50 Fire/FF Controller, Violent Force L30 Fire/Psi Dominator, Tabubua L24 Claw/Regen Stalker
Victory - Calistus L26 SS/EA Brute
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As said previously, yellows are not a response to a Stalker attack. They are a precaution. Yellow insps at this time are roughly equivalent to the old discipline insp. Remember how popular they were?
I don't think players should be able to avoid AS entirely and in a reliable manner. This would cause Stalkers too many problems.
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What you're not understanding is that options are there to eliminate a Stalker getting the jump on you - it's whether or not you want to make use of them.
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Interruptables
It appears that these are also dependent on the characters AT and build. They are also not reactive. I believe that these AoE effects must be activated before the Stalker attacks. They are not a response to a Stalker but a precaution.
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When you're in an open PvP zone, you know Stalkers are running around. If you choose not to turn on a toggle that prevents an AS, it's your fault if it happens to you. That's just common sense.
I've never once had a Kin Controller or Defender yell at me cause I AS'd them - they blamed themselves because they forgot to turn on Repel.
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The problem with interuptable AOEs are that stalkers are defensive sets and alot of the time the AOE dont even land.
What you're not getting is that I don't want to eliminate Stalkers getting the jump on me. I want them to be able to get the jump on everyone. I want there to be a risk for all parties engaging in PvP and that means there needs to be a chance to react to an otherwise insta-kill attack. Snipes or AS.
Making it so that all players who enter PvP learn that they must stack +perception will lead to either - Stalkers whose stealth is worthless or Heroes who cannot respond to being ganked. It will also lead to casual players not engaging in PvP.
Pinnacle - Atlantean L33 Eng/Eng Blaster, Aeonian L25 Rad/Dar Defender, Darksaw L38 Kat/Da Scrapper, Purple Dynamite L25 Inv/Eng Tanker
Freedom - Volcanic Force L50 Fire/FF Controller, Violent Force L30 Fire/Psi Dominator, Tabubua L24 Claw/Regen Stalker
Victory - Calistus L26 SS/EA Brute
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Trick Question. The answer doesn't matter. It has the same psychological effect that a one-shot does.
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Bingo. This was exactly my point.
PvP is a very fine balance and there are a lot of ways to creatively combine powers for extreme effect. Assassin Attacks, while powerful, are only the most visable (irony?) example. There are others which are worse and whatever solution we come up with for 'The one shot problem' has to address as many variations as we can identify.
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Interruptables
It appears that these are also dependent on the characters AT and build. They are also not reactive. I believe that these AoE effects must be activated before the Stalker attacks. They are not a response to a Stalker but a precaution.
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When you're in an open PvP zone, you know Stalkers are running around. If you choose not to turn on a toggle that prevents an AS, it's your fault if it happens to you. That's just common sense.
I've never once had a Kin Controller or Defender yell at me cause I AS'd them - they blamed themselves because they forgot to turn on Repel.
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The problem with interuptable AOEs are that stalkers are defensive sets and alot of the time the AOE dont even land.
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That's not accurate at all.
My Stalker is always interrupted by those powers. Always.
My secondary provides res to the actual knockback of things like Repel and Hurricane, but there's no way I can AS a character that has them if I'm standing right next to them. If I'm careful using Fly or a fly temp power, I may being able to AS someone with Hurricane.
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I think I'm in almost total agreement with you except that I think players knowing that there is even a small chance to respond is key. A good Stalker against a poor player should be able to 'gank' about 100% of the time. Against an average player? 80-90%. I don't believe that to be the case at this time. Player response should also put the Stalker at risk; those able to remove themselves from combat straight after an AS should either: Not get a kill or be at risk of serious harm.
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Then I'd like the chance to be able to respond to being slept, held, confused, taunted, sniped, ice patched, critted, and debuffed.
Deal?
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That's why we not have Break Frees instead of Disciplines. Because Disciplines were unable to be reactive and let you RESPOND to a status effect.
You can't RESPOND to a one shot.
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I think I'm in almost total agreement with you except that I think players knowing that there is even a small chance to respond is key. A good Stalker against a poor player should be able to 'gank' about 100% of the time. Against an average player? 80-90%. I don't believe that to be the case at this time. Player response should also put the Stalker at risk; those able to remove themselves from combat straight after an AS should either: Not get a kill or be at risk of serious harm.
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Then I'd like the chance to be able to respond to being slept, held, confused, taunted, sniped, ice patched, critted, and debuffed.
Deal?
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That's why we not have Break Frees instead of Disciplines. Because Disciplines were unable to be reactive and let you RESPOND to a status effect.
You can't RESPOND to a one shot.
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Correct, but you can PREVENT it from happening in the first place (for Stalkers).
You can't tell me otherwise because I've played against people of all ATs who've managed to avoid AS one way or another.
See, that's just it... ANY player that PvPs regularly already knows to stack perception... And I wasn't talking about insights, I was talking about tactics stacking, mostly, because it's available to anyone.
Three players, three tactics=Stalkers bane.
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I think I'm in almost total agreement with you except that I think players knowing that there is even a small chance to respond is key. A good Stalker against a poor player should be able to 'gank' about 100% of the time. Against an average player? 80-90%. I don't believe that to be the case at this time. Player response should also put the Stalker at risk; those able to remove themselves from combat straight after an AS should either: Not get a kill or be at risk of serious harm.
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Then I'd like the chance to be able to respond to being slept, held, confused, taunted, sniped, ice patched, critted, and debuffed.
Deal?
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Well Slows and debuffs aren't directly fatal but otherwise sure thing. A break free is a response to mez effects, other effects need a response too.
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Just like yellow insps are a response to Stalkers being hidden.
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It's not a response. It only does you any good if you hit it BEFORE the Stalker attacks.
A response genreally comes AFTER the stimulus.
_Castle_:
With all due respect, this seems to be a way to avoid dealing with some of the realities of PvP.
As my post regarding Siren's Call demonstrates, with Build-Up and one (1) Enrage, Stalkers can easily one-shot Controllers, Defenders, Peacebringers (Human/Nova), and Warshades (Human/Nova).
Furthermore, Trip Mine is only available to certain secondary powersets (Blasters' */Devices, Masterminds' */Traps, and Corruptors' */Traps, I believe). Not every Blaster, Mastermind, or Corruptor even has access to the power.
Every single Stalker has Assassin's Strike or some variation of it, however.
It's not a "Trick Question" as much as it is a "Red Herring" to distract away from the issue of the easy Stalker one-shot kill.
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I think I'm in almost total agreement with you except that I think players knowing that there is even a small chance to respond is key. A good Stalker against a poor player should be able to 'gank' about 100% of the time. Against an average player? 80-90%. I don't believe that to be the case at this time. Player response should also put the Stalker at risk; those able to remove themselves from combat straight after an AS should either: Not get a kill or be at risk of serious harm.
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Then I'd like the chance to be able to respond to being slept, held, confused, taunted, sniped, ice patched, critted, and debuffed.
Deal?
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Well Slows and debuffs aren't directly fatal but otherwise sure thing. A break free is a response to mez effects, other effects need a response too.
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Just like yellow insps are a response to Stalkers being hidden.
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It's not a response. It only does you any good if you hit it BEFORE the Stalker attacks.
A response genreally comes AFTER the stimulus.
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He said a response to the Stalker being hidden, not the Stalker attacking.
The point you're missing is that Stalker Assassination Strikes can be stopped before they even happen through various methods. You don't need to respond to an attack if you can avoid it happening in the first place.
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Trick Question. The answer doesn't matter. It has the same psychological effect that a one-shot does.
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Bingo. This was exactly my point.
PvP is a very fine balance and there are a lot of ways to creatively combine powers for extreme effect. Assassin Attacks, while powerful, are only the most visable (irony?) example. There are others which are worse and whatever solution we come up with for 'The one shot problem' has to address as many variations as we can identify.
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I agree, which is why I felt encouraged when you said the 1 HP solution is only one of the "solutions" you are considering.
Anything that kills you in X secons or less (I'd say 2) is something that can "instagank" you - i.e. kill you before you even know you're under attack.
That's the problem. Be it one shot or three.
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Thing is, players DO have a chance to avoid an AS
Perception AbilitiesThese seem to be either build options, IR goggles or yellows. Of these only yellows are close to being a reaction to a Stalker attack, and of course they will only be activated after the Stalker has used their AS.
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I'm sorry but that's not the Stalker's problem. The options are there for all builds - whether you choose to use them or not is up to you.
And you left out Aim, Tactics, Targetting Drone, Focused Accuracy (though that can't be used in Siren's Call), the fact that Tanks and Scrappers get enhanced perception in PvP and I know I'm forgetting a few others.
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Interruptables
It appears that these are also dependent on the characters AT and build. They are also not reactive. I believe that these AoE effects must be activated before the Stalker attacks. They are not a response to a Stalker but a precaution.
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When you're in an open PvP zone, you know Stalkers are running around. If you choose not to turn on a toggle that prevents an AS, it's your fault if it happens to you. That's just common sense.
I've never once had a Kin Controller or Defender yell at me cause I AS'd them - they blamed themselves because they forgot to turn on Repel.
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Although these do allow a player to prevent an AS I would consider that having to avoid these effects is not much fun for a Stalker, or for the player having to take these measures.
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Having to avoid them can be fun. It's a game of cat and mouse. Some builds I can run up and AS on, others I have to be more creative sneaky with.