One shotting has got to end
By
Acanous_Quietus,
Posted on: 2005-12-07 01:38 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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PVP requires no skill now if all a person has to do is make sure their victim has no perception powers/defense and one shot them. This becomes even easier when your victim is preoccupied with another opponent.
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DOesn't that also qualify as being without awareness?
A person without perception or defense or battle-awareness and readiness might want to consider coming back to PvP after they've selected some PvP-oriented attributes, such as perception and defense, battle-awareness and readiness. That, or they can come to terms with the fact that they are going to be facing opponents that are harder to fight than mission AI, who might have built their powers around PvP-oriented combat and actually prepared for this type of battle. Then, defeat won't hurt the pride so much that you run screaming to the forums looking for nerfs.
Heroes can and do thwart my assassination attempts - why can't you? Has it occurred to you that perhaps the problem is not in the design, but in your tactics and playstyle not being anywhere near where it needs to be to compete with people who actually built their characters for PvP, and practice it solo and with teams nightly?
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The the question at hand, do we look at it from a defender's perspective (no, or minimal, opportunity to react) or the attacker's perspective.
Quason - by State's definition, would a defender TP'd into a group of 3 blasters, all of whom hit their nukes, apply? What about stacked burn patches with Caltrops? To go back to the example of Caltrops + mines, what if each power was dropped by a different attacker?
I'm not trying to be difficult, just probing the boundaries as far as possible now, rather than later.
Personally, I don't think it's possible to completely eliminate all scenarios where a defender is defeated without a chance to react. I think what is possible is the elimination of the defeat by a single attack.
Stacking multiple attacks is going to be nigh-impossible to block, and I think it should be allowed. It takes multiple powers, some basic tactics and, most importantly, time.
-- Warmaster
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This brings up another good point, and what I think may be the answer to what exactly we're trying to solve here. An Assassin Strike that kills a foe in one hit is a little over the top, because it's one hit from one enemy. The risk, however, is that either the victim has the opportunity to see it coming with +Perception, or the AS has the chance to miss, exposing and making vulnerable (and weak) the Stalker in question. The risk in this scenario = the reward, which is a one-hit kill, PROVIDED that the maximum Perception bonus can see over the maximum Hide/Stealth one can have. (I can't remember which maximum can be higher.) If the maximum Hide/Stealth is higher, then that would be unfair, because potentially anybody could be one-shotted and there's nothing that could be done about it.
However, in the scenario featuring multiple attacks combined by one set of Caltrops and a TP Foe, to the people saying that still counts as a one-shot, let me ask you this:
Have you ever taken an alpha strike from a mob of difficult foes in PvE and fallen from it? I would wager many of us have at one point or another. It's no different. The only main difference is the intrusive nature of TP Foe. To rectify, I suggest maybe providing more than two powers with TP resistance, and making it available to more people.
As to the Assassin Strike situation, I suggest this: If it is feasible given the code within the game, make Perception include a miniscule -Resistance to attacks made from a Hidden position. The more +Perception you have upon you, the more of a -Resistance debuff you get to Hidden attacks. The reason being - if you can see it coming... do something about it. Then, and here's the key element to this - make the damage from a hidden AS do just enough to leave a base-resistance player with a sliver of health, when slotted fully with Damage. (meaning 6 +3 SO's of damage leaves a player with no +Resistance sitting on nearly no health remaining) This way, if you can't avoid an AS you can SEE, you DIE from it. If you can't see the AS coming, you still have a chance to retaliate.
Win. Win. Scenario.
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Personally, I don't think it's possible to completely eliminate all scenarios where a defender is defeated without a chance to react. I think what is possible is the elimination of the defeat by a single attack.
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*nod* I think you're right. There's just always going to be situations where a player can be killed instantly or nearly-instantly without a chance to react. Just pointing out the fact that there are similarities.
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Is it just me or can't most of these PvP "problems" be solved by not standing still in a free fire zone. Seems to me that if I knew that I was going into a dangerous area, I'd be constantly ducking, dodging, and taking cover. If I cross the sign that says "now leaving the US controlled zone", I better put on my gear, get ready for battle, and put the pedal to the metal.
Maybe all of these problems can be solved by having the PvP zone rep say, "Standing around may get you killed." or maybe "Stalkers in mirror are closer than they appear" 
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Quick question:
Is Caltrops + (Trip Mine * 3) a "One Shot" or is it 4 attacks?
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Technically, and from the program's side, it may be 3 or 4 attacks, but for all player perception and practicality, it is being one-shotted. What is the difference of being hit with one attack that kills you or being hit with 4 attacks either at the same time to so quickly that you have no time to react?
On the other hand, you could argue that a blaster who jumps into a n agroed group to try to nova them and is immediately killed is "one-shotted" too. So really the question is how can you prevent "one-shotting" from multiple attacks (as with the trip mines) but not protect players from sheer foolishness?
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I think the complaint with "one-shotting" isn't so much a single attack, but
incoming damage over a 1-2 second period, so fast that you can't hit an INSP or a healing power before being dead.
That is a "one-shot", just as much as a single 4000HP attack from an AV is a one-shot.
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QFT
One possible correction for this would be some way to automate inspiration chewing, BTW. A macro command like
/HP_trigger [point] [action]
EXAMPLE" /HP_Trigger 25% "{that command that eats a specific type of inspiration set to eat a respite}"
of, if you are a defender /HP_Trigger 25% "powexec name healing aura"
Also nice would be
/END_Trigger
and even
/Status_trigger
Such commands would allow people to automate something to keep them alive between the first shot and the already queued second shot so they might actually be able to do more than watch their guy faceplant.
It's four attacks, Castle...
And I think it also proves a nice point... People will complain that AS needs to be nerfed to NOT one shot, but people will complain to the PLAYER that TPFoe+Trip Mines is a cheap tactic. But NOT that they need to nerf Trip Mines.
Ironically, my two mains are a /dev and a Stalker.
Funny lil world, idn't it?
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Personally, I don't think it's possible to completely eliminate all scenarios where a defender is defeated without a chance to react. I think what is possible is the elimination of the defeat by a single attack.
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*nod* I think you're right. There's just always going to be situations where a player can be killed instantly or nearly-instantly without a chance to react. Just pointing out the fact that there are similarities.
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Is it just me or can't most of these PvP "problems" be solved by not standing still in a free fire zone. Seems to me that if I knew that I was going into a dangerous area, I'd be constantly ducking, dodging, and taking cover. If I cross the sign that says "now leaving the US controlled zone", I better put on my gear, get ready for battle, and put the pedal to the metal.
Maybe all of these problems can be solved by having the PvP zone rep say, "Standing around may get you killed." or maybe "Stalkers in mirror are closer than they appear"
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I'd have to disagree here. Assuming that constant movement is effective against Stalkers and that all players learn this, Stalkers will need to do one of these:
1) Wait for the player to become bored of moving- No fun for either player
2)Wait for an unaware player to enter the zone - No fun for the, presumably, new player
3)Leave the Zone. No fun for the Stalker.
I think requesting that all other players move constantly to counter a threat some cannot perceive is not really a solution that leads to a fun PvP experience for more than about 2 minutes.
Pinnacle - Atlantean L33 Eng/Eng Blaster, Aeonian L25 Rad/Dar Defender, Darksaw L38 Kat/Da Scrapper, Purple Dynamite L25 Inv/Eng Tanker
Freedom - Volcanic Force L50 Fire/FF Controller, Violent Force L30 Fire/Psi Dominator, Tabubua L24 Claw/Regen Stalker
Victory - Calistus L26 SS/EA Brute
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It's four attacks, Castle...
And I think it also proves a nice point... People will complain that AS needs to be nerfed to NOT one shot, but people will complain to the PLAYER that TPFoe+Trip Mines is a cheap tactic. But NOT that they need to nerf Trip Mines.
Ironically, my two mains are a /dev and a Stalker.
Funny lil world, idn't it?
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I think it just shows that if changes to Stalker 1-shots are being enacted, other potential problems need to be fixed too or we just end up with another Fotm.
Pinnacle - Atlantean L33 Eng/Eng Blaster, Aeonian L25 Rad/Dar Defender, Darksaw L38 Kat/Da Scrapper, Purple Dynamite L25 Inv/Eng Tanker
Freedom - Volcanic Force L50 Fire/FF Controller, Violent Force L30 Fire/Psi Dominator, Tabubua L24 Claw/Regen Stalker
Victory - Calistus L26 SS/EA Brute
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With regard to powers I think that players should be able to engage in PvP without requiring a specific build
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Ok...consider me blow away by this post. You KNOW that the computers AI is vastly different from a real player. You KNOW that even pathing for computer AI is differnt from the what a player can accomplish. Heck you even know that the computers AI make them execute power in specific orders. You teleport, it knows to face the direction that you teleported too ect ect.
You mean to tell me that a build that knows exactly how to handle the computer AI & only have the powers and pool abilitys to handle those contigencys should beable to do the same for a human intelligence who tactics are only limited by its imagination?
Wow...just...wow
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It's four attacks, Castle...
And I think it also proves a nice point... People will complain that AS needs to be nerfed to NOT one shot, but people will complain to the PLAYER that TPFoe+Trip Mines is a cheap tactic. But NOT that they need to nerf Trip Mines.
Ironically, my two mains are a /dev and a Stalker.
Funny lil world, idn't it?
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I think it just shows that if changes to Stalker 1-shots are being enacted, other potential problems need to be fixed too or we just end up with another Fotm.
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Well, the blaster who does that (and The_Josh does it a lot) is at risk the whole time when setting this up. It's not something you can throw together in a couple seconds. I know that he gets interrupted quite often when trying. Pulling such a maneuver off should be rewarded with a kill.
Now what I don't get is why people seem to think that Stalkers are amazingly fragile, and that if they spend any time unhidden at all it's like instant death. It really isn't the case, it's not like stalkers take 500% damage when not hidden. Many people are disillusioned about this.
Stalkers aren't weak or particularly vulnerable when they're un-stealthed! If defenders, blasters, corruptors, controllers and dominators can survive and do well without stealth, then why the heck can't you?
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Quick question:
Is Caltrops + (Trip Mine * 3) a "One Shot" or is it 4 attacks?
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don't forget TP foe!
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With regard to powers I think that players should be able to engage in PvP without requiring a specific build
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Ok...consider me blow away by this post. You KNOW that the computers AI is vastly different from a real player. You KNOW that even pathing for computer AI is differnt from the what a player can accomplish. Heck you even know that the computers AI make them execute power in specific orders. You teleport, it knows to face the direction that you teleported too ect ect.
You mean to tell me that a build that knows exactly how to handle the computer AI & only have the powers and pool abilitys to handle those contigencys should beable to do the same for a human intelligence who tactics are only limited by its imagination?
Wow...just...wow
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No...clearly i don't mean that. That would be stupid.
I mean that a player should not require Tactics to fight a Stalker and a Stalker should not require double-Stealth to be able to fight heroes.
Builds don't know how to fight AI and other players. Players do. I'm blown away that you think it is your build that determines success in PvE and not your skill.
...And no, i'm not including the intentionally gimped or moronic builds that do exist. I was referring to a build from an 'average' player who has taken some care in building their character, without needing to become a number-cruncher or specialist in PvP.
Pinnacle - Atlantean L33 Eng/Eng Blaster, Aeonian L25 Rad/Dar Defender, Darksaw L38 Kat/Da Scrapper, Purple Dynamite L25 Inv/Eng Tanker
Freedom - Volcanic Force L50 Fire/FF Controller, Violent Force L30 Fire/Psi Dominator, Tabubua L24 Claw/Regen Stalker
Victory - Calistus L26 SS/EA Brute
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Is it just me or can't most of these PvP "problems" be solved by not standing still in a free fire zone.
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If it's really that simple, then the devs could simply add an inherent toggle called scuffle that keeps your character shucking and jiving when you aren't actively moving. That would create this constant movement of which you speak.
Only problem is that such a power is only good against the Stalkers assasin's strike power and not against the other ATs that can 1 shot. Move all you want, you aren't going to screw with that unperceived Blaster's sniper shot/
Still, if people think the proper counter for AS is constant movement, then it shouldn't be a big deal to automate constant movement for people.
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I think the complaint with "one-shotting" isn't so much a single attack, but
incoming damage over a 1-2 second period, so fast that you can't hit an INSP or a healing power before being dead.
That is a "one-shot", just as much as a single 4000HP attack from an AV is a one-shot.
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QFT
One possible correction for this would be some way to automate inspiration chewing, BTW. A macro command like
/HP_trigger [point] [action]
EXAMPLE" /HP_Trigger 25% "{that command that eats a specific type of inspiration set to eat a respite}"
of, if you are a defender /HP_Trigger 25% "powexec name healing aura"
Also nice would be
/END_Trigger
and even
/Status_trigger
Such commands would allow people to automate something to keep them alive between the first shot and the already queued second shot so they might actually be able to do more than watch their guy faceplant.
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QFT
This topic was raised on the scrapper/stalker forums a week or so ago, about being able to put automated TRIGGERS on various powers, including HEALS.
Set a threshold and let the SERVER activate the heal or INSP for you.
I didn't see a problem with it. It has downsides to balance the upsides.
It certainly isn't one shotting since it takes a while to set up. It is a question of whether it is fun however. This sort of thing is just being a pain, little different than camping hospitals or whatever. It is defensible, but only if people want to take time out to constantly go hunt gankers.
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You can't please everyone, so lets concentrate on me.
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Quick question:
Is Caltrops + (Trip Mine * 3) a "One Shot" or is it 4 attacks?
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...Or how about TP'foeing a Player directly into a large +2 Tsoo spawn complete with Bosses? As was mentioned, the 1-shotting is occuring in the fact that Teleport-Foe can be used as an AlphaStrike. It's also related to AS'ing inronically enough. The solution of course, is Instead of an Accuracy-Check, a Velocity-Check needs to be done to determin whether the player could actually be hit with either of these Attacks assuming RL physics were applied. More-convenient coding is nice and all, but Concept is much more important, especially for a SuperHero/SciFi game.
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PVP requires no skill now if all a person has to do is make sure their victim has no perception powers/defense and one shot them. This becomes even easier when your victim is preoccupied with another opponent.
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That requires no skill? So then why is it that I've lived thru AS before with multiple defenders. It's not a lock for a kill. If it were a no brainer it would work 100% of the time no matter what the stalker did. That isn't the case.
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I dont mind getting 2 shotted. 2 shotted means I have a reasonable chance to heal, escape, retailiate. And I dont wanna be forced to play a more hearty, boring AT just bc there is a few ATs out there than have this 1 shotting advantage. Thats why I refuse to play blasters/stalkers. Hitting the "I win button" is pathetic. It requires no thought.
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If you force the stalker into a 2 shot then "you win" each time. The stalker can't live much longer after a failed AS. So we should doom the stalker because you don't like to play them? A bit selfish don't you think?
Oh, and you don't have to play a tanker or scrapper to defeat a stalker but you have to change your tactics. Are you against adapting to the situation or something? Why can't you pick up a perception boosting power, or team with someone who has it, or stay close to a teammate who can help? In other words .. adapt?
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You stalkers pretend you has no defense WHATSOEVER! There has been many times my HOed scrapper with his 2 perception powers (tons of ACC), still miss 2-3 times when trying to attack a stalker b4 he hits AS. You also have mez protection too. Compare it to blasters, yes they have ranged atts, but no mezz prot. Huge disadvantage but more bearable. So what your saying is that the WHOLE 2ndary powerset for stalkers is totally useless, other than hide? I guess the heals and defense buff are worthless. /sarcasm off.
The point of ED was so things like overpowered attacks would be less preveilant. Stalkers contradict to point.
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Quick question:
Is Caltrops + (Trip Mine * 3) a "One Shot" or is it 4 attacks?
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Definately 4 attacks. Aside from the seperate attack "rolls" the mines need to make, the time involved in laying everything out can be irritating. Plus, you then have to lure the mob into the trap, and they can attack you in the meantime.
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Can't live much longer? Sorry ninja but that's if you have the brilliant idea of attempting an AS in the middle of multiple opponents. Other than that, you just placate and prepare AS again.
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Yes and while the stalker placates you the target is completely helpless and is unable to I don't know use respites, +HP powers (like dull pain and such) or pop lucks so that AS misses so that the stalker does not stand a chance.
/rolls eyes.
If you hate stalkers so much why don't you get + perception powers. You don't go out in below zero weather butt naked then blame the weather because you got sick
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Wow popping greens dont work if your 1 shotted, Sherlock. And you ppl act like its soooo easy to build up +perception powers. Not all ppl enetering a pvp zone has a team rdy with the luxury of perception powers. As a matter of fact outside of Tactics (which its useless alone), scrappers, and some defender buffs there isnt many to go around. And finding 3 ppl on a team ALL with Tactics is tough. And dont even start with yellow.
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Are we talking about PvP here or did you just try and solo Requiem at level 10?
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Actually it doesn't matter. Barring the situation of tackling stuff that is way beyond your level, getting one-shotted by anything is equivalent to the game randomly deciding it is time for you to die. Even getting 95% swatted isn't fun, since usually that other 5% has already been queued by another critter before you know what happened. And not being afforded an opportunity at all to respond isn't challenging in the sense that an adventure game is fun to play, it is challenging in the sense that draws people to Roulette or slot-machines.
So it really doesn't matter if what one-swatted you was a stalker, AV, nasty boss, or even a lucky minion. It sucks regardless of how it happens. Relying on random insta-death (from the dieing player's perspective) isn't challenging, it is a design crutch. It might have been fun back in the SNES days but this isn't Super Mario.
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Well said.
PVP requires no skill now if all a person has to do is make sure their victim has no perception powers/defense and one shot them. This becomes even easier when your victim is preoccupied with another opponent.
I dont mind getting 2 shotted. 2 shotted means I have a reasonable chance to heal, escape, retailiate. And I dont wanna be forced to play a more hearty, boring AT just bc there is a few ATs out there than have this 1 shotting advantage. Thats why I refuse to play blasters/stalkers. Hitting the "I win button" is pathetic. It requires no thought.
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Just wanted to say that it does take skill to play a stalker.
That is all.
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Just wanted to laugh at that. Stalker really was "Easy Mode" for me. That's why I abandoned the AT. It just made every victory feel...cheap.
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Couldnt have said it better myself.
That's true as well. Having to rely on Insights wouldn't be that bad if the +PER lasted 2 minutes like most buffs ...And you could actually buy the damn things in Siren's Call(the favored hunting ground of most Stalkers).
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Can't live much longer? Sorry ninja but that's if you have the brilliant idea of attempting an AS in the middle of multiple opponents. Other than that, you just placate and prepare AS again.
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Yes and while the stalker placates you the target is completely helpless and is unable to I don't know use respites, +HP powers (like dull pain and such) or pop lucks so that AS misses so that the stalker does not stand a chance.
/rolls eyes.
If you hate stalkers so much why don't you get + perception powers. You don't go out in below zero weather butt naked then blame the weather because you got sick
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Wow popping greens dont work if your 1 shotted, Sherlock. And you ppl act like its soooo easy to build up +perception powers. Not all ppl enetering a pvp zone has a team rdy with the luxury of perception powers. As a matter of fact outside of Tactics (which its useless alone), scrappers, and some defender buffs there isnt many to go around. And finding 3 ppl on a team ALL with Tactics is tough. And dont even start with yellow.
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Personally, I didn't realize that respites and lucks were so powerful. I didn't think to look past the heal or +defense to see everything else they offered.
Had I known that popping a respite or luck meant that a stalker instantly stood no chance against me, I would've carried more.
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Quick question:
Is Caltrops + (Trip Mine * 3) a "One Shot" or is it 4 attacks?
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Trick Question. The answer doesn't matter. It has the same psychological effect that a one-shot does. Whether you devs are OK with that being a tactic or not is up to you.
My personal opinion is that PvP is unfair. And it never will be perfectly fair. Players will always come up with ways to take people out with no risk to themselves. At the end of the day, I think you devs should make it as fair as you can by whatever definition of fair you use and step back.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Yes, my defender damage will surely make all stalkers shake in their boots!
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My defender eats stalkers for brunch. Especially those silly ninjutsu stalkers with their lack of knockback defence.
I think the complaint with "one-shotting" isn't so much a single attack, but
incoming damage over a 1-2 second period, so fast that you can't hit an INSP or a healing power before being dead.
That is a "one-shot", just as much as a single 4000HP attack from an AV is a one-shot.