One shotting has got to end
By
Acanous_Quietus,
Posted on: 2005-12-07 01:38 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Well great, we've already muddled up that question.
Can we have another?
I would say it is 2 or 4 attacks. Caltrops and Trip Mine are discreet powers and require multiple 'clicks' to activate. Since all the Trip Mines are the same power it can argued they are 1 attack but I don't see how Caltrops + another power is a 1-shot.
Pinnacle - Atlantean L33 Eng/Eng Blaster, Aeonian L25 Rad/Dar Defender, Darksaw L38 Kat/Da Scrapper, Purple Dynamite L25 Inv/Eng Tanker
Freedom - Volcanic Force L50 Fire/FF Controller, Violent Force L30 Fire/Psi Dominator, Tabubua L24 Claw/Regen Stalker
Victory - Calistus L26 SS/EA Brute
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That's the case when you're TP Foed into caltrops and mines. There's no chance of interaction by the defender, they're immediately killed. So yeah, by that criterion it's a one-shot.
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I see what you mean but if anything I'd call the use of TP foe the 1-shot attack not the Caltrops + Trip Mines.
Pinnacle - Atlantean L33 Eng/Eng Blaster, Aeonian L25 Rad/Dar Defender, Darksaw L38 Kat/Da Scrapper, Purple Dynamite L25 Inv/Eng Tanker
Freedom - Volcanic Force L50 Fire/FF Controller, Violent Force L30 Fire/Psi Dominator, Tabubua L24 Claw/Regen Stalker
Victory - Calistus L26 SS/EA Brute
*nod* I agree. And there's a hell of a lot of to-hit checks that have to take place (TP Foe and 3 mines) before the defender is killed. But still, if you're just running along headed to a mission and you see a whiteish-blue flash and the Go To Hospital button, how is that any different than getting ASed? I guarantee you the guy it happened to wouldn't find much dissimilarity.
I have _barely_ dodged that attack, by good mobility... already being in the air when the teleport went off. The caltrops aren't there for damage, they're to make you stick to the ground.
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Well great, we've already muddled up that question.
Can we have another?
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Why do we park on driveways, and drive on parkways?
The the question at hand, do we look at it from a defender's perspective (no, or minimal, opportunity to react) or the attacker's perspective.
Quason - by State's definition, would a defender TP'd into a group of 3 blasters, all of whom hit their nukes, apply? What about stacked burn patches with Caltrops? To go back to the example of Caltrops + mines, what if each power was dropped by a different attacker?
I'm not trying to be difficult, just probing the boundaries as far as possible now, rather than later.
Personally, I don't think it's possible to completely eliminate all scenarios where a defender is defeated without a chance to react. I think what is possible is the elimination of the defeat by a single attack.
Stacking multiple attacks is going to be nigh-impossible to block, and I think it should be allowed. It takes multiple powers, some basic tactics and, most importantly, time.
-- Warmaster
I think its a bit different since more checks occur. Having said that i'm all in favour of allowing every player a chance of responding to an attack. I think how the Stalker playstyle currently works is a problem and i'm willing to recognise that this is also an issue of similar significance.
I'm not sure the fix is the same but I suspect it would need to be deployed at the same time as any AS change.
I think this may be a problem because it is potentially doable by a single player, just like an AS combo. Casual players with PvE builds ought to be able to engage in PvP without being ganked constantly. I accept that it takes more time but i'm not sure it involves greater risk for the ganker.
Pinnacle - Atlantean L33 Eng/Eng Blaster, Aeonian L25 Rad/Dar Defender, Darksaw L38 Kat/Da Scrapper, Purple Dynamite L25 Inv/Eng Tanker
Freedom - Volcanic Force L50 Fire/FF Controller, Violent Force L30 Fire/Psi Dominator, Tabubua L24 Claw/Regen Stalker
Victory - Calistus L26 SS/EA Brute
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I believe Statesman's criterion when he commented on the one-shot issue was that it eliminated player interaction. The defender had no role in the kill.
That's the case when you're TP Foed into caltrops and mines. There's no chance of interaction by the defender, they're immediately killed. So yeah, by that criterion it's a one-shot.
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What about all the Holds/Sleep/Immobilzed/ETC. That pretty much elimintes my interaction.
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Personally, I don't think it's possible to completely eliminate all scenarios where a defender is defeated without a chance to react. I think what is possible is the elimination of the defeat by a single attack.
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*nod* I think you're right. There's just always going to be situations where a player can be killed instantly or nearly-instantly without a chance to react. Just pointing out the fact that there are similarities.
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Why don't you call them "healers" while you are at it?? 
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QFT !!!
And if you want an extra helping of whine with that ... Toss Corruptors in with them ...
You'll get twice the whining from the same number of people 
How about a shorter duration on Trip Mines for PvP or a limit on the number an individual player can deploy? Either that or harsh penalties for repeated ganking by players.
Pinnacle - Atlantean L33 Eng/Eng Blaster, Aeonian L25 Rad/Dar Defender, Darksaw L38 Kat/Da Scrapper, Purple Dynamite L25 Inv/Eng Tanker
Freedom - Volcanic Force L50 Fire/FF Controller, Violent Force L30 Fire/Psi Dominator, Tabubua L24 Claw/Regen Stalker
Victory - Calistus L26 SS/EA Brute
I often PvP with my Stalker and many heroes either have Tactics, IR Goggles, or some other type of Stealth perception and they do just fine. I actually LIKE when those type of people are playing, because I don't have to read the whiny, "Turn off Hide and see how you do!" messages on broadcast or in tells.
Fact of the matter is, there's plenty in PvP to counter Stalkers. If people think a Stalker is going to run up to them and fight "tooth & nail" to the death, they're out of their mind.
Also as said before, it take a lot of patience and skill to be a Stalker in PvE and PvP. Go into Siren's Call and you'll see Stalkers getting owned and you'll see other Stalkers owning everybody else.
If you're getting one-shotted in PvP frequently, you need to pay better attention to your surroundings and take advantage of temp powers (since heroes have control of most of the PvP zones on every server atm) and other powers that enhance perception.
This coming from someone whose main is a Blaster.
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This looks like a disguised "Nerf Stalkers!" post... Maybe it's just me.
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Well, the stalker REP _Castle_ wants to eliminate 1 shots. So, I guess the Stalker rep is a disguised Stalker nerfherder.
Can we consider, just for one tiny moment, that Stalkers have the potential to be more than 1 shot killers. Or that, if they don't have that potential now, the devs will be smart enough to counterbalance their 1 shot stopper by buffing some other aspect of the Stalker AT?
If Stalkers don't stop treating every post on this subject as a nerfherding of their AT, they're not going to have their voices heard on HOW such a system should be put in place and WHAT compensation Stalkers should receive to keep them viable in a world without 1 shots.
Edit: Shameless plug for my idea for a one shot fix
Equally shameless plug for (my variant of) Aracana's idea for a one shot fix
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I often PvP with my Stalker and many heroes either have Tactics, IR Goggles, or some other type of Stealth perception and they do just fine.
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With regard to powers I think that players should be able to engage in PvP without requiring a specific build; it discourages casual play in the long-term. As for IR goggles...
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(since heroes have control of most of the PvP zones on every server atm)
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What happens when heroes don't have control of the zone? What about a level 20 character with no influence? They shouldn't go into Siren's Call? That seems a bit harsh.
Pinnacle - Atlantean L33 Eng/Eng Blaster, Aeonian L25 Rad/Dar Defender, Darksaw L38 Kat/Da Scrapper, Purple Dynamite L25 Inv/Eng Tanker
Freedom - Volcanic Force L50 Fire/FF Controller, Violent Force L30 Fire/Psi Dominator, Tabubua L24 Claw/Regen Stalker
Victory - Calistus L26 SS/EA Brute
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If Stalkers don't stop treating every post on this subject as a nerfherding of their AT, they're not going to have their voices heard on HOW such a system should be put in place and WHAT compensation Stalkers should receive to keep them viable in a world without 1 shots.
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QFT
Pinnacle - Atlantean L33 Eng/Eng Blaster, Aeonian L25 Rad/Dar Defender, Darksaw L38 Kat/Da Scrapper, Purple Dynamite L25 Inv/Eng Tanker
Freedom - Volcanic Force L50 Fire/FF Controller, Violent Force L30 Fire/Psi Dominator, Tabubua L24 Claw/Regen Stalker
Victory - Calistus L26 SS/EA Brute
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Quick question:
Is Caltrops + (Trip Mine * 3) a "One Shot" or is it 4 attacks?
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Hey Castle.
Well, the */DEV is exposed to danger while he sets up the trip mines, but when he actually does the TP Foe...it feels a lot like a 1 shot.
Frankly, I think the solution to that particular problem is to change the way TP Foe works in PVP. Instead of TPing the foe directly to your reticle, it TPs them X feet ABOVE your reticle and gives then the good ol' TP Hover. Now they've got two seconds to figure out how to keep off those mines. If they have Fly or TP, the answer is pretty simple.
And, if they're not right now, mines should be targetable and susceptible to knockback.
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I believe Statesman's criterion when he commented on the one-shot issue was that it eliminated player interaction. The defender had no role in the kill.
That's the case when you're TP Foed into caltrops and mines. There's no chance of interaction by the defender, they're immediately killed. So yeah, by that criterion it's a one-shot.
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What about all the Holds/Sleep/Immobilzed/ETC. That pretty much elimintes my interaction.
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Which is why they added break frees and status supression.
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Quick question:
Is Caltrops + (Trip Mine * 3) a "One Shot" or is it 4 attacks?
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Good job avoiding the issue, Castle. Blizzard asked me to tell you "Thanks!"
NERF HUNTERS!
<_<
>_>
Oh wait wrong game.
Various snipes, flames and insults aside, i'd like to take issue with one thing that irks me in this thread, the concept of "Well if you don't prepare you should be smacked down so have the right build to pvp!"
Issues with this.
What if I don't have room for tactics? What if I already have my four pools picked out with other things? Making a +perception power a "must" for pvp as much as making a stealth power one (not just hide here that's a given) seperates pvp right off into two classes, and we end up back at the classic debate of hardcore builders sleeked down for pvp vs casual gamers who might not have the perfect builds, and nine times out of ten won't stand a chance in pvp teamed or otherwise. Not to mention pvp becomes cookie cutter central, with even less room for variety then the fifty million forum posters still whining about ED.
Now let me disclaim that by saying there's a big difference between tactics as in build, and tactics as in gameplay and a good team. As the above beach fight example points out. But for me pvp always seems to come off as a failure because it instantly disqualifies most players from it simply because they don't have power X to counter fotm cheap shot Y or perfect build Z even if Z sucks totally compared to a good pve build.
But if you have a pve build you shouldn't expect to do well in pvp you say? and in truth you're mostly correct, but that's where I would ask yourself, how is pvp going to have the broad appeal and enough people particpating to ensure it's success if it can't draw in the casuals as well as the hardcores?
Most nights I go to SC or BB, dead zone, I really have to wait to see any good crowds or fights, and i'm not always able to play at "prime time" More so as my usual bedtime now with getting up at 6am for work is 10pm if not eariler.
Also think of when you first get sent there, it's around 14 for BB and for me it was 22 for SC, arguably about half the max level for each. well 2/3 in siren's case.
Now take mr casual gamer joe blow here, and watch as he walks in thinking this might be fun, total new guy not like a lot of the coh vets here, still learning the actual gameplay as well. Now watch as his first build gets janked, hospital, jank, hospital, camped, janked, etc. How long do you think he's going to stay if he's not having fun? Odds are he'll come here and fire off a rant like this idiotic nerf calls to hurricane that are so popular now. *level 50 stormie toon growls in annoyance* The point is pvp should be viable REGARDLESS of build, ability on the other hand is a whole nother matter. For me, it seems less about ability and skill then it does who has the most stackable powers or the best gear in the form of ex'ed down SO's and HO's course enhancements are a thread unto itself, so we'll leave that opinion right here.
I'm sure now someone is asking why then should I expect my ability lacking new guy to have any success at all? Shouldn't he lose and lose badly? I'll be honest here, yes he should most of the time. But if he's losing, how does he lose? Did he have a chance, did he have time to learn and think of a way to counter and win, or was there simply no chance because he kept getting stealth janked (not singling out stalkers here, blasters and anyone else can do it do, specially a stealthed controller sneaking up to mezz) due to just not having the right build or his must have +perception power yet?
Again was it skill, or was it build? pvp will not be sucessful regardless of what game it's in until the former replaces the latter fully.
Ask anyone who frets over builds like I do and they'll tell you there's just not room for everything you want. And I won't in any way shape or form compromise a build just to have an "edge" in pvp. To me it's not my fault for walking outside without a jacket, it's the devs fault for creating an enviroment where the jacket is needed. And to keep it going not making an enviroment where we can all chill in the sun on the sand with our swim trunks on.
Translation? Pvp should be a fair (as in good gameplay decides who wins and smart moves/teams) and not bullying (he who stacks the most stealths or tactics gets the first shot and usually wins) And outside sources shouldn't interefere with this. Which brings up my other big beef.
#2 He who has the most toys usually wins. And siren's call, 99% of the time hero dominated is where the big offender is, and it's name is IR goggles. Call it a whine if you want but a cheap to any hero 30 minute stealth breaker only avaliable to them heck only avalible to either side if by the grace of gods the villains hold on to SC, is patently broken if you ask me *joking laugh* period
The other powers i've got no problem with, web grenades are evil and I love them, and who doesn't love a free travel power? But this one breaks the main mechanic of stalkers right off, along with anybody who does go the must have stealth or wants to be sneaky route, and far too easily for it's cost and duration when stacked with other powers.
I'm sorry but it's not fun to me when i walk into SC, and can't even see my target as i'm stunned by a beanbag then 3 shotted by a blaster over and over and over, because i can't see him yet he's got a cheap and easy way to always see my stealthed behind. If he puts in tactics, ok i'm fair game I deserve to die when i'm found, more so as i don't have room in my planned build to waste on a +perception power. He put in the cost of power picks and I didn't, advantage blaster I won't deny it. But IR goggles? nope, it's unbalancing imho, same with the stealth reward you get from the patrol BB mission. I shouldn't "Need" it to stack with my stealth just to dodge IR goggle wearers or perception W...ladies of negotable affection
If not remove them outright, which i honestly think they should, they should be made to not stack with other powers. BOTH of them. It'd lessen that bullying aspect I feel all too well in pvp, and make them more of a choice, not a be all end all to survive.
I've dabbled a bit in pvp, but to be honest it really just feels like more of the same i've seen before, just wearing a different hat. And coming from a more casual aspect I can see it probably never will be for me unless some serious changes are made. There's too many underlying flaws in the system to make it the one thing it should be, and that's fun. regardless of AT, regardless of power picks, and regardless of style. But if being a "good" pvper means having the best loot (what little there is in coh/cov) the best gear (the must have power picks no better then the uber sword of leet smack, just repackaged under a new name) or the max level before i even consider it as some would say (a 12 should be at a disadvantage in BB, but it shouldn't be impossible for him to even hold his own) Then you guys can keep pvp,I'll leave it for the 5% or so of the hardcore population that love it, and write it off as another failure. Not to mention feel a bit disappointed that this usualy good dev team couldn't be the ones to get it right.
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What about all the Holds/Sleep/Immobilzed/ETC. That pretty much elimintes my interaction.
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You can do something about those. A breakfree will allow you to take action after a mez.
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And, if they're not right now, mines should be targetable and susceptible to knockback.
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Are Trip Mines even visible to the opponent in PvP?
That would seem to defeat their purpose... who would step on them if you could see them?
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#2 He who has the most toys usually wins. And siren's call, 99% of the time hero dominated is where the big offender is, and it's name is IR goggles.
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I'm in total agreement with you right up to here. You see I was expecting you to have a problem with Stalkers double-stealthed like most of the posts I see. It's interesting that you take the opposite view and suggests there is a fundamental problem with stealth and perception as they are currently.
I think it is the binary nature of stealth and perception that is the problem. I liked the idea I saw, I forget where, suggesting that the closer a stealthed character is to a player the less stealthy they become. I'm not convinced of the practicality of implementation but, then again, i'm not one of the devs who would have to code that. Thank goodness!
Pinnacle - Atlantean L33 Eng/Eng Blaster, Aeonian L25 Rad/Dar Defender, Darksaw L38 Kat/Da Scrapper, Purple Dynamite L25 Inv/Eng Tanker
Freedom - Volcanic Force L50 Fire/FF Controller, Violent Force L30 Fire/Psi Dominator, Tabubua L24 Claw/Regen Stalker
Victory - Calistus L26 SS/EA Brute
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Patience does not = skill.
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Neither does you saying = true
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Quick question:
Is Caltrops + (Trip Mine * 3) a "One Shot" or is it 4 attacks?
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In my opinion, it's a one-shot. It's 4 powers, sure, but they're all from one toon and they hit all at the same time. Hide+Build Up+Assassin's Strike is a one-shot, too, even though it's 3 powers.
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I believe Statesman's criterion when he commented on the one-shot issue was that it eliminated player interaction. The defender had no role in the kill.
That's the case when you're TP Foed into caltrops and mines. There's no chance of interaction by the defender, they're immediately killed. So yeah, by that criterion it's a one-shot.