Dragonkat

I.E. All those silly people who make builds taking power picks as IO slot mules to try and softcap defense over doing damage.

As for the whole debuff argument, it doesn't wash. Because if I'm paired with a rad or a dark then guess what, I'm getting my force just as multiplied, and I've got a lot more attacks then one 90 second nuke. Last time I checked we tend to fight more then one spawn every 90 seconds too. That and good luck killing the AV with just your debuffs and a nuke without extra DPS from other AT's Along with the fact not every MM / def / corr / troller is gonna be a rad or a dark. Take a kin for instance, if judgment isn't affected by buffs then a fulcrum shift is doing the blaster a whole heckuva lot more good in that instance.

Way too much doom in this thread if you honestly think one hard to get incarnate ability is suddenly pushing blasters off to the wayside.

No, but what DP has is a little more versatile style with using piercing rounds a sorta snipe when paired with boost range.

I could with boost and build up easily line up a spawn, fire PR, then use the T1 and T2 blasts to pop mobs from range before they could blink, must less get off even 1 or 2 attacks.

And that's with cryo rounds helping to kill the movement rate, negating some of the lethal resist some mobs have, and giving me more time to stay at range. (See they are useful! =p ) Paired with stunning shot to stop extras and energy melee for anything that did get to me it was an all around hard to stop toon.

That and empty clips + static discharge was a great damage duo on teams, surge of power helped a ton to stomp AV's too.

Grated this isn't really what the OP is asking about but just saying.

That and it lacked the one problem I have with max range snipes. Even with boost range you have to walk in closer to use any other blast, which opens you up to a ranged volley. So if you do Go IO's and want to play at ranged, thunderstrike sets will probably be your friend. (much as I hate the concept of defense on a blaster) It's that or entropic chaos for more recharge and a lil regen.

Regarding that question fully I vote for archery myself, namely for many of the reasons listed, but also for blazing arrow's insane damage from a good ways out. That and the +15% acc. While rad's -def is nice, when you're dealing with a situation like multi vengeance stacked nemesis or those annoying rikti drones (or as i have to call them sometimes streak breakers) you really want the +acc over trying to hit through all that to land a -def.

Lethal resist is also not the bugaboo so many make it out to be, really a half and half deal in terms of mobs that have it. High end game at one end you have malta, freaks, Armored rikti like the headman gunmen, armored crey, and Earth DE. Ok well that and probably some Praetorian mobs, can anyone confirm that one?

Though of those both freaks and boulders are weak to energy attacks, rikti don't seem to have any real energy resist, can't remember offhand if any are weak to it (hi EM) and plant DE are weak to lethal. Knives and nemesis soldiers? (excluding warhulks and fakes) No resists far as I know, same with I think any carnie outside the strongmen (they have invul powers correct?)

I disagree with this slightly Adeon as I've watched the damage ticks when I have dual gun drones out (yay recharge) one will defiance buff the other, and gun drone also carries some damage buffs you have when you cast it till it wears off you (seen this with red insps, though i'll admit i haven't tried it with someone forting me)

The defiance as far as I know doesn't wear off till the gun drone icon starts blinking and it's getting ready to splode, least that's what my in game playing has showed. I'll check the combat tabs later tonight (leaving for work now) But if you are right about that one I'll be happy to concede the point.

And I don't joust, always seemed rather silly to try and game the engine that way, and it'd slow down my attack chain.

But I'll try one more time, if I said you have to fight a giant bag of HP and use a temp power to stop his super ability, and he carries a massive aoe that nukes everything around it. That and only that, could you tell the difference between kahn and lambda? just curious.

Pretty much this, I don't care about charts, pylon times, and DPA DPS or anything else that starts with a D. I care about dealing damage in a way I find enjoyable, and build my blasters to suit that style. What other AT's can do or not do better or worse then me has no impact on my enjoyment. Which is another reason I found all that endless whining in a certain thread loltastic. Same with anyone who keeps trying to treat the game like a math exam.

It's not about filling a niche Dave, or who is more or less survivable, or any AT vs AT issue on any front. Either way I'm a blaster, I already know that's gonna be low if I mess up =p If I'm doing my job and putting out numbers to drop a target that much faster regardless of the fact a scrapper or brute is putting out comparable ST damage then I'm being useful. Again that's good enough for me.

It's not a matter of belief it's pretty much a damn fact. I didn't even bother trying o use gun drone for example on Apex #2 because i knew either I'd have to run from a patch before the interrupt time was done, or it would wander right into a patch chasing BM a few moments later. not to mention sword and champion aggro if you aren't paying attention. I'd imagine fire imps, gravity sings and MM's who aren't good at controlling pets all have an issue here too. Same with trying to plant a mine or bomb under her? Ha good luck, and if i'm not trying to root her that pretty much leaves target drone as my only good power.

As for other powersets being shakey, that to me is an issue, see also melee vs trapdoor, or any tank or troller vs BAF commandos. Recent content just does not seemed to be designed with every AT in mind, it's veering all over towards one end or the other in terms of who it favors, to me this says sloppy design. As a blaster fan i do not want my time to shine to come at the expense of mobs another AT can't even touch, that just seems flat out stupid.

Again see gun drone, which is a huge defiance boost in and of itself if it's alive. (22% or around I think) While the objective numbers may be a bit low every bit of damage helps when you're a blaster, against common mobs I build up my chain specifically using defiance to drop things faster, I've done the just enough math by eyeballing damage without checking tables to see it's effect, and trust me it makes a difference. Even a 20% one from typical defiance build up from a slow attack chain. Subjectively speaking? It's one more annoyance in an already annoying fight.

If I'm given an inherent by the devs to help my class, and then you give me a fight where said inherent is barely useful, it's rather irksome. And if I was playing an AT that relies on it a lot more then blasters I'd be a bit PO'ed when I'm losing half my damage to her puddles.


And you didn't answer the question, if the only thing as a tank you can do is taunt, how should the tanker feel? Objectively he's effective in terms of trying to pull aggro and get BM from a patch, but I wouldn't find being a tauntbot a fun way to spend my AV fight. I'd prefer to be in BM's face smacking it, not running from her cheap shot.

Oh and my one tank I have? She never took Taunt, she uses all the ice auras and ice patch to herd/slow/keep aggro on her. With damage procs in her auras to help out. Mind telling me how she's going to be useful now? Same question applies with the Commandos again.


Ugh.... did i ever say intractable? For gods sake no, but what I did say is the TF is riddled with flaws and annoyances that greatly detract from the fun of it. Top of the list being in fact that apex isn't hard, it's just tedious.

I don't find wading through +4 mobs fun at all. If giant HP bags are bad why do we suddenly make every single mob one? All it does is pad out the fights.

If tank and spank is bad why do people love the warwalker battles then? Or for that matter Lambda sector? When you get right down to it you could easily replace pacification grenade with dimensional grounding ray and nova fist with reisch's lightening attack and it's the kahn TF in a new shiny skin. Just now you have to deal with the devs new solution to everything on top. Moar ambushes for everyone! *eyeroll*

That and a question that's been eating at me too. If tank and spank is so bad, then pray tell what should the tank be doing in future content? Since the AT is meant to hold aggro at the trade off of lesser damage, yet every new content piece seems to have a LAWL defense sets element to it, or is built to specifically render a majority of tanker abilities useless? (sequestration + commandos yet again)

First. The trends I'm seeing (again subjective) are all furthering my growing dislike of incarnate content over being worried that others will hate it.

#1 We're taking CoH down the road of generic mmohood, and creating a even greater mentality for everyone blowing through the 1-50 game to get to incarnate content. As a rabid alt player I'm not sure how I feel about this in terms of TF's and team finding. But lucky I'm on virtue and the WTF has reduced this worry somewhat.

#2 We've hit a point where we're getting (as I've said in other posts) to a point where the content isn't what do I feel like playing today? It's becoming What can I bring/build that will be best for the upcoming content? Not quite holy trinity territory, but again looking at the BAF. An 8 controller team would wreck anything in normal coh content, but then to hit a brick wall of unmezzable mobs at this point? Getting metagamed by the GM (devs) at that point would leave a pretty sour taste in my mouth were I a troller player.

#3 Like I said above I've never encountered in CoH a mentality where an AT wasn't allowed to join a team till Apex because "It'd slow things down." Whether the statement is true or not doesn't change the fact we're seeing it out there. And AT elitism has no place in this game, I bought coh specifically to get away from it.

Then again I also bought it to get away from PvP, wasting my time in an auction house, hunting that specific shiny set piece, and most of all the endless running of one particular area to grind out that one lucky loot drop. *glares at the current design of the BAF and lambda*

looks like I'm batting .000 in that regard eh?

*laughing like mad* Come on I haven't had my morning coffee yet...But Geez AF you really can't resist any opportunity to troll me can you? Should I feel special? =p Do you see me anywhere in that post saying I'm AV soloing? But fine I'll break down into a context even you can understand since as usual it went right over your head my literally minded friend.

The I'll be over here wrecking the AV is summed up as thus, and the same reason why I don't like aoe damage themed builds. It works great till you hit the AV. Then if you have a person on your team spec'ed for single target target damage you'll find a fight will go a lot faster, and let me bold it just to make sure you get it when the entire team is then taking on the AV Since a good ST chain will outdamage aoe powers against one big target any day of the week. Tin Mage and it's giant AV's of HP doom or our good friend the kahn TF being a perfect example of this. and why I'm not concerned in the slightest about the judgment nukes. As I said we have so much aoe in the game anyway it's just overkill, if I wanted something to be bugged about I'd fall back on the ol nugget of how a fully IO'ed domi can out aoe some blasters, or how elec ones drain mobs into oblivion. If i cared that is.

If you want to play with numbers since you bring up times I'll pull my AF impression for the day and go. "That's great now show me the times where an aoe build will out DPS ice's ST chain boosted with a very rare spiritual alpha and IO sets." =p

Again it's how I build my blasters, not to be AV soloists, but to be AV wreckers while someone else is holding the aggro. Don't get as many kills as some on a team, but I know when it matters I'm laying some hurt, and that's good enough for me.

So forcing a player (for whatever reason besides just the OP's) to alter their way of playing to be able to get things done, in a manner they might not find enjoyable is perfectly acceptable. Yet it's not ok for them to try to alter others into maybe doing things in a manner they find fun?

Yeah that's not hypocritical at all.... And that's the problem the OP has if I'm reading this right, other peoples definitions of what's fun altering things for him. I don't really agree with all of the opinion but I really disagree with someone saying just alter your style and get over it.

Either way though a lot of the old content could use a revamp, as could the remaining core TF's. But the OP left one part of the equation out of the mix, I play story arcs not for the merits (that's what sister psyche is for, a TF I find fun as heck) But for the ending XP rewards. Well that and the story because I have yet to get bored of them unlike some, and it's a nice change of pace for when I max out my tips, already took care of the WTF, or can't find a different TF team.

Endless radios missions I find rather tedious honestly, usually only do them long enough to get my tips then move on to them and contacts. But hey to each their own, that's what I find fun, not about to tell someone else to run it my way, and if I can't find a team, oh well. =p

Only have one real exception to the rule, that's speed TF's. Single worst thing that's happened to coh is those and people who game the content fast as possible just to get some stupid piece of loot at the end. Sorry I don't find sitting at the door sitting on my butt while the tank suicides infernia on the LGTF very heroic or fun.

If the devs found a way to nuke them off the map I wouldn't shed a single tear for the whines that would result. Same as I didn't when merits got nerfed thanks to the endless speed katie crowd.

Regarding the aoe part. Ice isn't known for it's aoe's it's known for ST damage and holds, so lets be honest here. Replace ice with fire primary for instance and I'd wager those mobs might get off one or two attacks at most before the entire spawn is melted, may get hit but it's a moot point when everything is dead.

As for Ice, this is one of those moments where I will be snarky and question your in game knowledge. No ice player would open with a scattering rain or frost breath. I'd start with holds to ensure I'm not getting hit, take over half the spawn (at 0/1-2) out of the fight right off. Pound the non held targets into the ground. Then casually walk over the rest who are probably still frozen. Or just re-hold them, then wash rinse repeat.

And again be honest here, how would a traps corr do the same without getting hit too? More so a non defense slotted one?

As for the boost range part (how did this even enter into the discussion?) every thing you say about dev's drawbacks applies in the exact same manner to traps. Mobs won't be reaching acid mortar or seekers, FFG and triage is pointless when mobs don't get to shoot at you, and you won't be placing trip mines either. So how is this a flaw exclusive to dev that makes the set so lacking compared to others or traps?

You know I find it funny you want to try and argue traps superiority again on a single comparison between two powers, given you said just above.

Never mind that FFG also won't let you stealth pull single mobs from a pack too. You know, that tactics and strategy thing again.

And again be honest. Looking at the newest updated MIDS FFG gives 15.85% fully enhanced for defense. And zero resistance to any damage type, just mag 7 mez resists to hold root and stun. Moot point for me though as I'll hold any mezzer before they can think of shooting at me. As for smoke only lasting 60 seconds? Name me one fight that lasts longer then that, never mind that smoke has a 15 sec recharge and would be reapplied long before that timer ran out. Another case of where you seem to have little knowledge of how the real game works when you stop looking at numbers PG.

As for pulling aggro with FFG, I can do the same with gun drone and it shoots back, takes a lot to bring it down too.

A lot of the same ones I could easily say traps has once you pull IO's out of the mix. Yet also the same buffs dev gets when you throw them in. You're really too willing to ignore the many negatives of traps and positive aspects of dev in the process too. The two sets a lot more similar then I think you'd care to admit.

And that screams to me that IO's really are overpowering AT's to do things they shouldn't be allowed to do regardless of time and money needed to actually pull it off. And I honestly wouldn't be surprised if defense sets do suffer a nerf down the line because of it.

Never said once you're having less fun, the same way I never said dev is some uber set compared to your precious traps (Seriously did i hit a nerve there?)

But I do love how you persist in believing that because your builds can run at a higher optional setting using more optional IO's you're still somehow better then me (again for various definitions of better) The baseline point of coh balance still says otherwise.

To which I say eh whatever. Oh and show of hands, anyone else wanna see this challenge? =p

Seriously dude, it's a game, you really should chill a bit, I'm not interested in rubbing anything in anyone's face, unlike some who want to gloat about "buckling in" I just like asking questions (if in a snarky manner hehe) and trying to get a straight answer out of people. Hmmm still have yet to see one though.

Ok i lied, one more sentence.

And if we don't play games for fun why are we playing then? I can tell you it's not because I feel like crunching numbers in mids all day, I just like hitting things. Well and forum banter, this I find fun as all get out. ^_-

Though as I said before I find it very irritating that far too many people are developing a reliance on good IO's over good gameplay skills.

Annnyway back to tweaking the build. See you later, and thanks in a way, I'm having loads of fun seeing just how high I can push the slider right now =p

*yawns* ah nothing like a melted hard drive and a windows reinstall to keep me out of the loop for a few days, I see I haven't missed much so asides from an invitation to a meaningless challenge. Called you out? seriously? Here let me go find my ruler we can settle this like real men!

Though I do love you putting more words in my mouth plainguy. As I don't recall saying anywhere I mow things down with devices before mobs can blink like I'm some uber gadget god. Though I do recall saying my ice/dev is damn good at what she does. Or for that matter I never specifically mentioned or "called out" traps alone, last time I checked the question I asked (which you still seem incapable of answering) was name me any powerset that does what dev can do, all the more so when paired with a blaster primary.

While we're at it I have yet to see you or AF for that matter define what is this magic prep time that makes devices so much slower. Seriously if you can't even try to answer questions posed to you, and instead blather on about this challenge of yours, then it really is pointless at times to continue the discussion.

As for claiming to cut snippits, well you're the one who said them not me. =p

Annnyway I'm game if demo record is ok? (Fraps hates my computer) Just because it's something to do if nothing else. All the same your challenge still is meaningless because you only seem interested in one criteria, and that's complete time.

You aren't taking into account things such as damage taken (though I do guess this could count as downtime) Mob types, map layouts, or heck even primary related to secondary issues. My ice/dev and energy/dev have slightly different styles of doing things. So if you really wanted to get scientific about it we'd need to test every primary with dev or traps, and even I aint rolling that many alts.

Irregardless this is hitting the same point as the why a blaster thread did, niether side is gonna convince the other, and in a nod to Claws he makes the most sense out of anyone as no challenge or number crunching can measure fun, conecpt builds, or enjoyment.

And in double nod to him from his general forum thread, measuring by time shows one other little detail to me. You're measuring by a reward driven mentality, how fast can I complete maps for most XP? See that's not why I play CoH so I'm already at a loss to you in that regard, being such a silly casual and all, not a mindless number crunching powergamer. Or would you prefer brainless button masher since your uber defense build apprently is so godlike, oops or is that me putting words in your mouth now, I can't tell. [/snark]

And while we're at it, can your defense build or your challenge teach aggro mangement, how to dodge alphas, corner and door pulling, target prioritizing, learning how to support a team, stealth pulling bosses from a smoked pack, proper insp use, defiance buffing your attack chain, learning how to mez/stun before it happens to you, differences between mob types, when it's best to range or blap, or AKA everything blasters had to know and learn for how many years of coh before we got IO's? And before apparently defense sets became your magic bullet to everything? Not that they are, just off the top of my head for those relying only on defense over actually knowing how to play a blaster.

slot S/L? The rikti and carnies would love a word with you.
slot ranged? Devouring and knives would eat you for lunch.
slot for melee? Hi nemesis and malta how are you today?

Or are we only playing in easy mode against things like freaks and council on a x8 farm map?

Let me pose one other little question again even if it's off topic to devices, as I finally figured out what's been bugging me while the comp was down. Calling you elitist was wrong, what the issue is when you talk about defense builds and how it's seeming to become de-facto must have for blasters (the same way fitness and hasten have been) do you not see the problem here? Rather then IO's becoming a means to an end, they've become the be all end all.

Doing so means you aren't shaping IO's around your build, you're shaping a build around what IO sets can be fit into it.

To put it another way it seems (at least to me) that we've gone from a point where to far too many players have a mentality where it's not the player anymore that dictates the skill and ability of the build, but the amount of "phat lewtz" said build is equipped with. Hence my SO tangent that AF missed in his usual moronic manner. And a place i do NOT want to see CoH hit, if I wanted that I have far too many other mmo's I could pick from.

You've taken a purely optional part of the game and turned it into a metric for trying to measure performance and game balance when it's anything but. Specially to people such as myself who just don't give a damn and are perfectly fine slotting toons with 50 generic IO's. As trying to play the market gives me a headache, is a waste of time when I could be out fighting mobs or helping others, and quite frankly is another blight on CoH, same as loot being added. May be in a minority but I still think it was a horrible idea.

Just look at this as the worst example. http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251335 I'm sorry to Jak, but what /energy blaster in his right mind is going to take powers to try and get some defense over the energy melee blaps?

To be as rude as possible let me sum it up like this. If you want defense three words, play a tank. And while you're at it gtfo out of the blaster forum.

Regardless i'll try to get some demo records done during my day off, just for the hell of it. Like I said, something to do.

You know you guys make this way too easy sometimes.

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...&postcount=253

I'm sorry AF, but I thought there was no "Real world" factors in a video game? =p

Either way if you want to carry yet another silly and pointless comparison one step further I'll continue to point out that what you missed yet again is that CoH isn't balanced around a Mclaren, if anything it's balanced around the pacer, or heck a soccer mom SUV. Not the most glamorous thing ever, but it gets the job done. Sure you can show off the fancy car you spent a few billion on if it makes your virtual you know what happy. But if you meet someone who doesn't give a care about the performance difference (my opinion on defense slotting comes to mind again) Then your shiny and your so called "performance boost" means diddly squat.

Take my DP/EM/Elec who is only marginally slotted, 3 entropic chaos sets is all. The rest is mostly 50 generic IO's. I'm soloing the EB's in Maria Jenkins arc in my sleep. Don't need more sets, don't really have a desire for more sets, and best of all the devs decided I don't need sets . . . unlike some who apparently need to rely on the crutch of defense slotting out blasters through some convoluted IO set placement over actually learning to play them. [/snark]

Did I mention I'm not a fan of defense slotting? =p Ok ok maybe that's going a bit too far, but seriously what do blaster fans do to survive before they get all those shiny sets?

It's an option to go IO crazy, nothing more. And players choosing to do so or not means jack in the grand scheme of things. Oh and I'll take my nice high mileage 99 forrester over your Mclaren on the icy roads around here right now. After all performance is only as good as the terrain and the person behind the wheel, or chair as the case may be. To put it back into coh terms I'll take the smart SO slotted player over the billion dollar baby twinks any day of the week.

EDIT: Oh and just for giggles some info from a car buff friend.

"Like an LS9 powered AMC pacer? 6.2 liter supercharged V8 making 620 horsepower and 595 ft-lbs of torque. Drop it in an AMC Pacer with a T56 6-speed and a Ford 9" rear end and you're talking about a car that will go from 0-60 in 3.1 seconds and run the 1/4 mile in about 11.5 seconds, which is equal to that of the McLaren. Modify the suspension a bit to go with the changes, and you could likely handle as well, too. Won't look as good, but hey, who cares about looks?"

Isn't it actually amazing what you can find when you read peoples posts rather then spout this continued nonsense regarding everything but devices? And that's what set me off to make my initial post in the first place, elitist crap like that no matter the context has no place in an MMO PERIOD. If you're looking for holds that's fine, go grab a controller, but the continued ill informed cheap shots against devices aren't needed.


Not exactly fond of it though are ya?

That and maybe if you actually read posts yourself.

How you managed to miss that yet catch the malestrom comment at the bottom of the same paragraph truly is a great example of selective reading. Or just selective reasoning to only pick points that validate ones narrow view. Personally I go for the latter, and it makes trying to argue against you pretty much a waste of time, but eh it's a day off I have time to forum indulge. Lets go with this gem next.

Wrong again chief, oh and you know what I "Smell"? Another whiff of that elitism from the guy who somehow thinks an SO slotted character is somehow not as good? Either way.

#1 My Ice/dev is actually my most IO'ed character, 2 lotg recharge, 3 entropic chaos, 3 basilisk, and 2 posi blasts the notable ones. Along with other minor sets in other powers.

#2 I take acro for the hold resist, not the knockback, and don't give a damn about the knockback IO.

#3 This entire comment is pointless anyway as it has zilch to do with devices, that and SO's are what the game is balanced around, not IO's anyway. And certainly not defense capped blater builds.

To jump around slightly.

You've got it right to a point here even if you're still seem strangely fixated on your precious defense cap. It is an IO problem because the three big set bonuses most go for besides defense are probably acc, damage, and recharge. With the exception of gun drone and recharge bonuses most of those don't help out devices one bit compared to helping out a damage centric secondary. That and devices has enough methods to mitigate aggro and control incoming damage that any defense building would just be icing on the cake.

It's not a case of dev being underpowered but IO's being overpowered. IO sets letting blasters do some over the top stuff like defense capping does render some of the utility devices provides not as effective, a point I'm willing to concede. Though it's also part of why I hate the addition of loot to CoX to this day. May abuse the system myself, but still don't like it.

Also $20 bet that you're gonna see a nerf to defense bonuses in the future too, the other big reason i don't have a single defense build across any alt in my sig.

*checks* Is the title of this thread why slot for S/L defense? Just curious. Devices, focus.

As much as I love people trying to imply what my motives are let me be honest and say exactly what they are, I'm upset as you put it because I have a super low tolerance for people who display the kind of attitude you've got in this thread. But more so people who can't put together even a slightly coherent on topic argument for their points, same with people who seem to fail basic reading 101, and most of all people who can't answer a simple question posed to them (See majority of previous post) So you fall back again to "Well the forums agree with me!"

So . . if by that logic the forums agreeing with you about S/L defense, somehow makes all your points about devices being weak equally valid? Tell you what how bout next we argue the merits of how 2 + green = chair?

I don't give one iota that a lot of blasters like defense slotting. It's not for me, and I have friends who think it's stupid and prefer full damage or as much recharge as possible too. But you don't see me using them to prop up my arguments do you?

It'd be nice if someone defined what prep time actually was here, and not imply it's that tired old cliche of every dev needs 5 minutes to prepare for a spawn with a minefield. Gun drone? Yes it's cast time is a pain, same with time bomb, but the few seconds you're waiting for it to go off is as Seebs pointed out in various places more then enough time to escape aggro range, or corner pull anything left into caltrops. If anything the larger the spawn the more useful a power like time bomb actually is.

As for bosses, here's my prep time AF. Smoke mobs, single pull boss into caltrops, slow with web or double ice hold, dead boss, finish off mobs. If mobs do follow that's what caltrops and a corner laid ice storm is for.

No corner? I still have the trops between me and them, and a barrage of ST damage and triple holds (if you count muni freeze ray) on top of smoked mobs running like ninny's from the rain power and trops rather then trying to get to me. If midden meets the windmill, I pop blizzard, run back, call it a day for that pack.

Course this is ice/dev, not AR/dev. But hey what can ya do? I mean AR does have a lot more cones to play with, you'd think a pull into trops and a single mine before going to town with the cones would be more effective then my single target blast fixation. That or using time bomb to vape a pack and then full auto anything that might be left standing. And before anyone says knockback there's that whole strategy thing of firing full auto right before the time bomb goes off and mobs are flying rather then shooting at you.

Annnyway lets wrap it up.

The whole amusing bit regarding non reading thing aside... allow me, from previous post, i'll try again since you missed it the first time.

Feel free to answer anytime. Oh and the opinion in that final sentence still stands too.

This I actually agree with to a point. You're quite right that it is stupid for us to be stomping on even cons as incarnates Eva, seems overkill indeed. Yet as you say here.

Is kinda where part of me disagrees, and ties into apex and tin mage too. +cons are 80% of the time merely dangerous to the melee classes, yet if you pull too much aggro or get picked by the ambush as a target it can easily be insta death for a squishie, and heck on MM's with pet level issues. Apex is really bad about this as you're dealing with +4's that pack tons of attacks along with tons of aoe during the KR fight. Granted this is me being a newbie on the TF and my first run at it, but when I'm being killed before i even can see the clock that's doing it, wee bit irritating. (As i said in another thread I found this more annoying then the BM fight)

You can see the same thing during the ITF if the low hp classes make the mistake of standing on the phalanx computer when the bots all activate and start raining aoe's down on it. And 5th bots have a lot less damage and debuff ability then +4 clocks. Apex makes the problem ten times worse.

Same problem would be what'd you see on other TF's if you did it, it wouldn't stop speed runs in the slightest, it's a human nature thing, you'll just up the increase of people looking for stealthers, or you'd have in my opinion people just gravitate to the high survival builds and you'd still see squishes left in the dust against even harder mobs.

But then we hit it's way too easy if we don't do something, and a slider while an option would probably not be used by many. So if apex and tin mage was simply +2 would that you think maybe put it at a level that would lessen some complaints, or then we have people saying it's too easy?

Regarding BM too, I disagree that everyone is penalized equally, melee's are hurt a lot more by puddles of doom by their duration if nothing else, and the fact it's hard for an AT to do it's job when you have not only the need for melee range plus long animation attacks able to easily trap you in a puddle. As for MM's, there's no way I would ever take one into that TF given pet AI.

What if instead of insta death dot the puddles were like the orbital lance super juked? A shot that would be an unresitable wide area aoe kaboom, thinking blaster nuke levels of damage like the old nova nightstar pulled, or the old anti matter atomic blast. Not insta death, but getting hit by a second one without heals would drop people. And it would let melee's get right back into a fight after the dodge since their wouldn't be the puddle still sitting there, would prevent airborne ones along with door deaths too hopefully? Can't exactly huddle round the def casting healing aura either. Or still dogpile on BM

Agree we need harder fights, and I'd love to see better ways of doing things then giant bags of hp (tricky though given how coh works under the hood) but the way devs are going about it still ranks more as annoying then actual challenge.