One shotting has got to end
By
Acanous_Quietus,
Posted on: 2005-12-07 01:38 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Had I known that popping a respite or luck meant that a stalker instantly stood no chance against me, I would've carried more.
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Damn the lack of "I Win" buttons in this game! 
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I believe Statesman's criterion when he commented on the one-shot issue was that it eliminated player interaction. The defender had no role in the kill.
That's the case when you're TP Foed into caltrops and mines. There's no chance of interaction by the defender, they're immediately killed. So yeah, by that criterion it's a one-shot.
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What about all the Holds/Sleep/Immobilzed/ETC. That pretty much elimintes my interaction.
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Being mezz isnt an insta-kill. You still have a chance to react or even use an inspiration.
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PVP requires no skill now if all a person has to do is make sure their victim has no perception powers/defense and one shot them. This becomes even easier when your victim is preoccupied with another opponent.
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DOesn't that also qualify as being without awareness?
A person without perception or defense or battle-awareness and readiness might want to consider coming back to PvP after they've selected some PvP-oriented attributes, such as perception and defense, battle-awareness and readiness. That, or they can come to terms with the fact that they are going to be facing opponents that are harder to fight than mission AI, who might have built their powers around PvP-oriented combat and actually prepared for this type of battle. Then, defeat won't hurt the pride so much that you run screaming to the forums looking for nerfs.
Heroes can and do thwart my assassination attempts - why can't you? Has it occurred to you that perhaps the problem is not in the design, but in your tactics and playstyle not being anywhere near where it needs to be to compete with people who actually built their characters for PvP, and practice it solo and with teams nightly?
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Have to agree with this. We have 12 slots. There is absolutely NO reason why you can't build different characters for PvE and PvP. If you take a character into a PvP zone without building in the tools to keep yourself from getting one-shotted (death without retaliation allowed,) then that is YOUR fault.
It is NOT the fault of the design, it is NOT the fault of the stalker, or the TPfoe-ing /dev trip mine laying nasty.
If you want to be able to PvP, as a defender, you need to either build with the tactics of others in mind, or you need to strap yourself to a teammate that CAN defend against others' tactics.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Quick question:
Is Caltrops + (Trip Mine * 3) a "One Shot" or is it 4 attacks?
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Is ( Caltrops + Buildup + TP Foe + Placate + AS ) a "One Shot" or is it 4 attacks ?
Ummm.... 1 + 1*3 = 1 Uh-huh... yeah! 
Gotta love the math they are teaching kids these days.
CatMan - some form on every server
Always here, there, and there again.
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Personally, I don't think it's possible to completely eliminate all scenarios where a defender is defeated without a chance to react. I think what is possible is the elimination of the defeat by a single attack.
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*nod* I think you're right. There's just always going to be situations where a player can be killed instantly or nearly-instantly without a chance to react. Just pointing out the fact that there are similarities.
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Is it just me or can't most of these PvP "problems" be solved by not standing still in a free fire zone. Seems to me that if I knew that I was going into a dangerous area, I'd be constantly ducking, dodging, and taking cover. If I cross the sign that says "now leaving the US controlled zone", I better put on my gear, get ready for battle, and put the pedal to the metal.
Maybe all of these problems can be solved by having the PvP zone rep say, "Standing around may get you killed." or maybe "Stalkers in mirror are closer than they appear" 
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I'd have to disagree here. Assuming that constant movement is effective against Stalkers and that all players learn this, Stalkers will need to do one of these:
1) Wait for the player to become bored of moving- No fun for either player
2)Wait for an unaware player to enter the zone - No fun for the, presumably, new player
3)Leave the Zone. No fun for the Stalker.
I think requesting that all other players move constantly to counter a threat some cannot perceive is not really a solution that leads to a fun PvP experience for more than about 2 minutes.
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All a person has to do to get ASed is be stuck in an animation for more than 2 seconds, and then they are dead. This includes just replenishing a buff like Tactics, Assault, etc..
Its not some outlandish thing like having your thumb up yer [censored], bored out of your mind, standing still in a hot zone nonesense.
PVP zones are turning into FPS games. Its quite sad. I'm not here to play Counter-strike. And I have changed all my toons with the last respec to counter stalkers, it still doesnt change my views.
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Quick question:
Is Caltrops + (Trip Mine * 3) a "One Shot" or is it 4 attacks?
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It is a one shot. You get hit by the teleport foe. And you die.
It's just as much a one shot as hide+buildup+assassins strike is.
People In this thread are arguing that it's not a one shot because there are more hit checks to contend with. However with AStrike you have to deal with people moving out of range, getting bumped, getting interrupted, being seen, and being in melee range without moving for 3 seconds.
The people in this game really need to realize that PvP is not about creating invulnerable characters. Every PvP build has a weakness. Look at guildwars. There isn't one perfect pvp build for a team. It's more like rock paper sizzors, which is how this game's pvp has always worked.
The stalker can also activate assassins strike when a moving target brushes by them. It'll hit even if the target continues moving, even if they're miles away when it actually hits.
Why not build different characters for PvE and PvP? Time. It's that simple. Some people won't spend the time to level up a second character in order to be able to experience a small aspect of gameplay. Why should they? They won't know if it's fun unless they can devote the time to building their second character.
If players are required to build for PvP, then all you will ever see is a small population of hardcore PvPers. This is a good way of killing off PvP for the majority of CoX players.
Pinnacle - Atlantean L33 Eng/Eng Blaster, Aeonian L25 Rad/Dar Defender, Darksaw L38 Kat/Da Scrapper, Purple Dynamite L25 Inv/Eng Tanker
Freedom - Volcanic Force L50 Fire/FF Controller, Violent Force L30 Fire/Psi Dominator, Tabubua L24 Claw/Regen Stalker
Victory - Calistus L26 SS/EA Brute
(Referring to setting up a Caltrop and Trip Mine field
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Well, the blaster who does that (and The_Josh does it a lot) is at risk the whole time when setting this up. It's not something you can throw together in a couple seconds. I know that he gets interrupted quite often when trying. Pulling such a maneuver off should be rewarded with a kill.
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And taking the time to set up an AS shouldn't be?
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If defenders, blasters, corruptors, controllers and dominators can survive and do well without stealth, then why the heck can't you?
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Does The_Josh use his Cloaking Device while setting up his trap? Then he's not without stealth, is he?
All of those archetypes have ranged attacks. Stalkers do not. Melee range multiplies risks significantly.
Finally, everyone has access to the Concealment pool. Stealth is an option for everyone in the game. Stalkers are only unique in that ALL of them have stealth, and they can stack it.
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With regard to powers I think that players should be able to engage in PvP without requiring a specific build; it discourages casual play in the long-term. As for IR goggles...
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I don't build PvP believe it or not. However, I believe those who do build for PvP will always have an advantage over those who PvP casually and don't specifically build for it. You can't blame anybody for that. When you don't build for PvP and go for a more casual PvE build, you can't complain that you don't have the tools you want/need to do as well as others in PvP.
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What happens when heroes don't have control of the zone? What about a level 20 character with no influence? They shouldn't go into Siren's Call? That seems a bit harsh.
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The same thing that happens when villains don't have the zone. You think I can see that Illusion Controller with Superior Invis? Or that Blaster running Stealth and Super Speed? I can't. The difference is, I don't have access to the IR goggles that the heroes do atm - yet you still don't see me complaining.
He didn't ask "Is it ONE attack?"
He asked if it was a "ONE-SHOT"
It is 4 attacks, with 4 rolls, but it qualifies easily at a ONE-SHOT.
MY definition of a one-shot:
"Enough incoming damage to KILL YOU, compressed into a time period too brief to all you to do ANYTHING about it"
ONE-SHOTs can be the result of more than one attack and often is.
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Quick question:
Is Caltrops + (Trip Mine * 3) a "One Shot" or is it 4 attacks?
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I'd call it ouch.
Yeah and it was great when I was running around with 3 Phantasm and was able to stack 3-4 LRs on ya. The point is everything gets tweeked for some concept of balance. I havent spoke against stalkers til recently, bc i didnt want to make an impartial arguement based on so little time. But now its clear they need fixing.
And way back when ILL/rad where dominating in the arena stacking slow I called a nerf to my own favorite toon b4 they ever considered the nerf to LR. This was bc at a certain point I couldnt get a damn match.
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I don't build PvP believe it or not. However, I believe those who do build for PvP will always have an advantage over those who PvP casually and don't specifically build for it. You can't blame anybody for that. When you don't build for PvP and go for a more casual PvE build, you can't complain that you don't have the tools you want/need to do as well as others in PvP.
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I don't have a big problem with this. I think all players (with a viable PvE build) should have a chance in PvP though. Even if it is a small chance. A repeatable 1-shot that a player cannot respond to will become a larger problem over time.
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The same thing that happens when villains don't have the zone. You think I can see that Illusion Controller with Superior Invis? Or that Blaster running Stealth and Super Speed? I can't. The difference is, I don't have access to the IR goggles that the heroes do atm - yet you still don't see me complaining.
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I agree this is not balanced PvP and I would hope the devs look at it.
Pinnacle - Atlantean L33 Eng/Eng Blaster, Aeonian L25 Rad/Dar Defender, Darksaw L38 Kat/Da Scrapper, Purple Dynamite L25 Inv/Eng Tanker
Freedom - Volcanic Force L50 Fire/FF Controller, Violent Force L30 Fire/Psi Dominator, Tabubua L24 Claw/Regen Stalker
Victory - Calistus L26 SS/EA Brute
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If players are required to build for PvP, then all you will ever see is a small population of hardcore PvPers. This is a good way of killing off PvP for the majority of CoX players.
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And nerfing every single one-shot possibility in the game will turn PvP into a tacticless button smashing snoozefest. Much akin to fighting an AV.
Just to note, I don't play stalkers OR /dev blasters. Matter of fact, the only possibility any of my characters have of one shotting a squishie is my brute, with a full fury bar, buildup and energy transfer.
Should fury, ET and buildup be nerfed?
Nope, must continue to disagree. I like that Stalkers exist and can one shot me. It'll keep me on my toes in PvP zones.
Be well, people of CoH.
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And nerfing every single one-shot possibility in the game will turn PvP into a tacticless button smashing snoozefest. Much akin to fighting an AV...Nope, must continue to disagree. I like that Stalkers exist and can one shot me. It'll keep me on my toes in PvP zones.
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Which is why I think players need a chance to react to avoid a 1-shot. I don't think a tacticless button mash is fun either.
Pinnacle - Atlantean L33 Eng/Eng Blaster, Aeonian L25 Rad/Dar Defender, Darksaw L38 Kat/Da Scrapper, Purple Dynamite L25 Inv/Eng Tanker
Freedom - Volcanic Force L50 Fire/FF Controller, Violent Force L30 Fire/Psi Dominator, Tabubua L24 Claw/Regen Stalker
Victory - Calistus L26 SS/EA Brute
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This topic was raised on the scrapper/stalker forums a week or so ago, about being able to put automated TRIGGERS on various powers, including HEALS.
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Uhhh, no. That does sound fun to me but it's going to be way too much work for way too many people to have to go programming powers in. PvP will start to become more a war of triggers and programming skill.
The problem isn't really one shots at all. It's attacks for which there's no viable defense. If somebody sets up shop with multiple trip mines in front of a nice, friendly boss turret then teleports, what are you supposed to do about it? Defense-oriented classes might have a chance. Keeping a purple inspire going the entire time would probably work. This really doesn't strike me as reasonable, though. Not far off but not quite there.
I would suggest changing the animation for teleport a little bit. Give us an effect before we get teleported so we have roughly one second before it hits. That will let us hit an inspire or a power if we're quick. The tactic would still get a lot of folks but death would no longer be inevidable.
With stalker one shots, Idunno. I've got a stalker with Assassin Strike but I haven't used it enough to know the details of how it works.
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And nerfing every single one-shot possibility in the game will turn PvP into a tacticless button smashing snoozefest. Much akin to fighting an AV...Nope, must continue to disagree. I like that Stalkers exist and can one shot me. It'll keep me on my toes in PvP zones.
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Which is why I think players need a chance to react to avoid a 1-shot. I don't think a tacticless button mash is fun either.
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Thing is, players DO have a chance to avoid an AS.
Perception Abilities
Plenty of these found in-game and they stack to increase your peception that much more. You see the Stalker now - avoid him or her and you've avoided the AS.
Interruptables
Repel, Hurricane, Blazing Aura, Frozen Aura, Snow Storm, Earthquake... The list goes on.
I think the problem is that players want to not worry about being AS'd at all instead of being given the tools to avoid one because it's takes a certain amount of effort on their part.
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Quick question:
Is Caltrops + (Trip Mine * 3) a "One Shot" or is it 4 attacks?
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I'd call it a "One Shot".
Reason being is unless you're lucky enough to have a power that received TP Foe protection in one of the most recent patches, there's not much you can do unless you just happen to be flying at the time.
Also the Blaster doing it is perched in a conspicuous area, safe from everything.
With Assassination Strike, the Stalker has to be in melee range - meaning even though he/she can't be seen by most, they can still be hit by targetted AOE powers like Caltrops, Taunt, Flamethrower, Full Auto, Fireball, etc which reveals their prescence.
Also like I said before, perception powers reveal a Stalker like you wouldn't imagine. I can't go into a PvP zone without seeing every hero with goggles on.
Basically the Stalker has to work to get the "one shot" while the Blaster does not.
Addressing two posts here...
First, Quizzless!!1one
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Well, the blaster who does that (and The_Josh does it a lot) is at risk the whole time when setting this up.
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True. Anyone with perception can come and r4p3x0r me.
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It's not something you can throw together in a couple seconds. I know that he gets interrupted quite often when trying. Pulling such a maneuver off should be rewarded with a kill.
[/ QUOTE ] I agree, but it only works about 25% of the time... You have to wait until your target isn't moving, TPFoe them, web grenade them. Even then, if they're not moving, it works about
half the time on squishies...
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Now what I don't get is why people seem to think that Stalkers are amazingly fragile, and that if they spend any time unhidden at all it's like instant death.
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We have defender/controller HP, IIRC... I don't have the exact numbers, but what I DO know, is BU+AS will NOT kill a blaster, but it WILL kill a stalker. Also, it's a LOT harder to AS someone in motion than it is to AS someone standing still... In PvP, Stalkers have to actually... STALK their prey for it to work properly.
Infinity, Warburg... Quizzles' toon Dark Azsmo is hanging out, I tele-gank him, Quizzles threatens me in broadcast and comes and hunts me down...
In a non-telegank situation (i.e. he knows I'm there) I win about half the time. Just food for thought...
Now for Obtenebrator:
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Does The_Josh use his Cloaking Device while setting up his trap? Then he's not without stealth, is he?
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I do, in fact, have stealth. It takes about 2 minutes to set up, then you have to wait for someone to get in range of TPFoe, then hope for the best... It's not anywhere NEAR reliable or efficient, the one thing it has is that it's unexpected.
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All of those archetypes have ranged attacks. Stalkers do not. Melee range multiplies risks significantly.
[/ QUOTE ] Very valid point... If a blaster sees a stalker, and the blaster doesn't let the stalker knows he's been seen... That's really, REALLY dangerous for the stalker.
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Finally, everyone has access to the Concealment pool. Stealth is an option for everyone in the game. Stalkers are only unique in that ALL of them have stealth, and they can stack it.
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Bottom line, guys... I don't think that 3 trip mines=instagank for squishies should be nerfed.
I don't think Stalkers should be nerfed.
Why? Simple; I'm a stalker, I'm a tele-ganker. In BOTH examples, my rate of success (i.e. I kill them without them killing me) is approximately the same. The one thing stalkers have over the tele-gank technique is that we can MOVE around while stalking, instead of waiting for prey to get near us.
However, I've also recently stated that I think TPFoe needs to be nerfed for PVP ONLY. I think it should either A)work on a magnitude system like mez (meaning to TPfoe someone, two players must TPfoe the same target player within 10 seconds of each other or so) or B) have it's accuracy capped at 33%, non-enhanceable. Also, when TPFoe fails, the target player's target switches to the failed TPFoe-er.
I've been AS'd on my blaster plenty of times, so I've been on both ends... Just my .02
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Thing is, players DO have a chance to avoid an AS
Perception Abilities
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Interruptables
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It appears that these are also dependent on the characters AT and build. They are also not reactive. I believe that these AoE effects must be activated before the Stalker attacks. They are not a response to a Stalker but a precaution.
Although these do allow a player to prevent an AS I would consider that having to avoid these effects is not much fun for a Stalker, or for the player having to take these measures.
Pinnacle - Atlantean L33 Eng/Eng Blaster, Aeonian L25 Rad/Dar Defender, Darksaw L38 Kat/Da Scrapper, Purple Dynamite L25 Inv/Eng Tanker
Freedom - Volcanic Force L50 Fire/FF Controller, Violent Force L30 Fire/Psi Dominator, Tabubua L24 Claw/Regen Stalker
Victory - Calistus L26 SS/EA Brute
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I would say it is 2 or 4 attacks. Caltrops and Trip Mine are discreet powers and require multiple 'clicks' to activate. Since all the Trip Mines are the same power it can argued they are 1 attack but I don't see how Caltrops + another power is a 1-shot.
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So by your argument AS isn't a 1 shot either,becouse AS by it self wouldn't kill any AT,u have to BU+AS,that's 2 powers as well.
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I would say it is 2 or 4 attacks. Caltrops and Trip Mine are discreet powers and require multiple 'clicks' to activate. Since all the Trip Mines are the same power it can argued they are 1 attack but I don't see how Caltrops + another power is a 1-shot.
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So by your argument AS isn't a 1 shot either,becouse AS by it self wouldn't kill any AT,u have to BU+AS,that's 2 powers as well.
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I see what you mean. I would say that AS is 1 attack and is therefore a 1-shot. By that character the load of Trip Mines on their own would also be a 1-shot. Provided the player has a chance to react to either attack before being killed, I have no problem with this. However, as discussed earlier, the TP foe into the Trip Mines is the real problem as running into a bunch of Trip Mines is not a very clever thing to do.
Pinnacle - Atlantean L33 Eng/Eng Blaster, Aeonian L25 Rad/Dar Defender, Darksaw L38 Kat/Da Scrapper, Purple Dynamite L25 Inv/Eng Tanker
Freedom - Volcanic Force L50 Fire/FF Controller, Violent Force L30 Fire/Psi Dominator, Tabubua L24 Claw/Regen Stalker
Victory - Calistus L26 SS/EA Brute
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Quick question:
Is Caltrops + (Trip Mine * 3) a "One Shot" or is it 4 attacks?
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Bad example. There is alot more prep to that combo. TP foe or luring prey to a visible trap. Not a mobile, ultra stealth one shot killing machine.