Chindi

[ QUOTE ]
-one shots by stalkers
-tp from hospital
-hero/villians inside the hosptial
-TP foe out of hospital into trap
-caltops/trip mine/tp trap

[/ QUOTE ]

3 out of 5 of these are exploits/griefing. Two of them are powers that can be beaten if you use tactics and skills within your powerset.

If you can't tell the difference between the 5, then we have no common language of communication.

[ QUOTE ]
-1 HP rule vs Alpha strike. I'm not sure how this would work. Castle mentioned the 3 trip mine exploit that would make this hard to patch.

[/ QUOTE ]

'Exploit' is your word. Not his.

The day they code PvP so as to protect you from multiple attacks (be it trip mines, three different people sniping you, two different people AS'ing you) is the day that PvP becomes a massive joke. 'Wait I'm immune to walking blithely into another team's ambush? AWESOME!'

Post deleted by Alexa

[ QUOTE ]
Which is why I think players need a chance to react to avoid a 1-shot. I don't think a tacticless button mash is fun either.

[/ QUOTE ]

Except.

There are tactics to avoid a stalker's AS. The tactics, and the build/buys/groups to support them are distasteful to some.. but they are still there for anyone to use.

There are other fairly dangerous one-shot combos.. most of them have avoidance measures, some that don't at least have long set-up time allowing you to try to persecute the executer.

Once code has negated all of these strategies, then PvP WILL be a tacticless button mashing. Right now there are tactics to negate the stalker's efficiency... people just need to be willing to use them.

[ QUOTE ]
The point is pvp should be viable REGARDLESS of build, ability on the other hand is a whole nother matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is just a flat-out impossibility.

Bob is a 'hardcore gamer'. Bob loves PvP. Bob gets his supergroup to help pl his new PvP char to it's level cap, respecs it so that it's the 'perfect' PvP build... and goes into Bloody bay.

Joe is a casual gamer... he plays 5-6 hours a week... he's heard about PvP but doesn't know a lot about it. His character is built for solo/Pick-up Group PvE. No SG, no Arena Testing. He finally gets the chance/urge/mission to go to Bloody Bay and thinks 'Neat, I'll go fight me a hero!'.

There is no way to make that contest anything other than ridiculously one-sided, and in most cases it's going to be a one or two shot contest. Mez/Death, TP Foe into Mines, As, whatever you like.... Joe is going to get his head handed to him repeatedly by Bob.

Trying to nip/tuck the code to increase Joe's survivability in that fight to the mythical point where he gets to 'fight back',
There is no way to do that without MASSIVE propping up of builds that aren't meant for PvP.

That's not even to touch on the fact that the mindsets behind the characters almost insures that even givent he exact same powersets Bob is always going to beat Joe because Bob is going to figure out how to best apply what powers he has. Not because he's smarter or better but because he's more interested in experimenting/trying it out.

[ QUOTE ]
But if you have a pve build you shouldn't expect to do well in pvp you say? and in truth you're mostly correct, but that's where I would ask yourself, how is pvp going to have the broad appeal and enough people particpating to ensure it's success if it can't draw in the casuals as well as the hardcores?

[/ QUOTE ]

But the PvP market isn't a casual market, by and large... it's a hardcore market... the people who by both editions of the game to play it.. maybe even have multiple accounts. And if you introduce elements to make PvP more 'broad' in appeal, what you're actually doing is alienating those hardcores. Who wants to take the tradeoffs of a strictly PvP built char, if anyone entering the zone has a chance to beat it anyway?

There is a happy medium, I have chars that are built mostly for PvE but have a couple of powers that are mainly PvP oriented so that I'm still effective in those fights. You don't have to be a pure PvP build to survive PvP, but building the system so that you don't need to make any concessions at all? Is foolish in the extreme.

[ QUOTE ]
If Stalkers don't stop treating every post on this subject as a nerfherding of their AT, they're not going to have their voices heard on HOW such a system should be put in place and WHAT compensation Stalkers should receive to keep them viable in a world without 1 shots.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Pil

I'm not a stalker player, and don't plan to be one and I don't disagree that there are issues with 1 - shot. But I'm willing to lay serious money on the fact that Castle's issue with it from a balance point is FAR different than the issue that started this post which was essentially 'He killed me because I couldn't be bothered to defend myself'.

At least in part Castle's issue has to do with his awareness that anything that potentially powerful will be balanced so it's better to get ahead of the curve.

My objection basically comes down to the fact that every time nerfs or code changes are used in place of people adjusting tactics, PvP gets less interesting, not more.

Haven't read your ideas yet on the 1 shotting, but I will.

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, my defender damage will surely make all stalkers shake in their boots!

Please hold still a minute while I kill you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which neglects to in any way shape or form stand as an actual rebuttal to my argument.

Or is your premise that as a defender, if you get the drop on a Stalker (which you would if he thinks he's hidden when you can actually see him) you wouldn't be able to deal with him?

Because Defender damage may not be much, but it's certainly up to that task.

And of course if you can't deal with a character when you have the drop on him and can avoid his best attack.. then no amount of balancing would make PvP fair for you anyway.

[ QUOTE ]
And so we see what PvP almost instantly descended into -- the ATs with the massive alpha strikes lining up to one-shot the ATs that are vulnerable to their alpha strikes, who in turn hide from the ATs that can survive their alpha strike and the subsequent damage long enough to beat them into the ground, and avoid the ATs that can keep them from getting in to deliver their alpha strike. Stratification based on HP and defenses.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or you know... maybe just maybe people approach PvP as what it is?

Heroes fighting Villains.

Plural.

Maybe they put a bit of thought into assembling a PvP team, so that there are complimentary strengths, and adjust their tactics for their weaknesses.

Because any amount of good teamwork beats all the instakill BS in the end.

The other night I saw a team of heroes essentially dominating Bloody Bay. They were out on the beach fighting heros and villains alike as they came. Using good tactics and support, using defenders on the team as lures... they did an awesome job.

I got a pickup group together, and we got shellacked the first time we tried to knock them off the beach... and the second. The third time it devolved into a draw with people down on both sides.. and people hurt and both groups scattering to the winds for survival.

Then we took the beach.... then we gave it back. Heh.

It was a lot of fun, and though there was one instant of instakilling (defender lures tend to get hurt, when instead of luring one guy back they turn a corner and an entire group hits them at once), it was generally a tactical combat.

Which is what PvP SHOULD be.

What it's devolved into is people wandering around the zone on their own trying to gank people, and getting ganked and then coming to the boards to whine about getting ganked and to ask the devs to nerf the class that ganked them.

It's also involved to people camping the lobby of the hospital on the villain side in order to grief people and rack up cheap kills.

The second you came to the board to ask the devs to 'fix' the problem that you're to lazy to adjust your build for, you became part of the problem, so don't sit back and tsk tsk tsk like you're above it all.

[ QUOTE ]
Wheter they end up changing AS or not, this is the biggest piece of C.R.A.P. I've ever read. I'm sure you thought smoke grenade was "working as intended"

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah.. you're a funny funny man... let me list all of the devices blasters I played.



Wow... long list right there.

I've played 0 of the cheesy combosets, and I've 0 times done the TP Foe/Trip Mines, or AS, or any of that. But way back when they first pushed PvP into this game and people started whining about it I became a proponent of using your brain for something other than a chamberpot.

So... before you make assumptions and personal attacks, why don't you make a counter to the argument? Please explain why you should not in any way shape or form have to take measures so that you're prepared to deal with the core power of someone else's powerset?

This is akin to asking to be immune to being mezz'ed the first time, without having to use break-frees.

This is akin to asking not to be debuffed/slowed/knocked down the first time a status effect hits you successfully.

You don't want to have to adjust your tactics around the fact that stalkers exist.... so you'd like them castrated.

[ QUOTE ]
So if they change the 1 shot-kill thing, or placate (which never misses) will you adapt too?....

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the thing I love the most.

Someone posts a link to an argument that suggests the devs are going to be incredibly short-sighted and put in some sort of 'no 1-shot' rule... so no you make sure to start dogging and moaning about another aspect of the power set, just in the hope that you can get that nerfed too.

The problem with this, is that just as soon as they nerf the stalker... they're going to have to go after other people too... because the Stalker will become totally ineffective in PvP.. and since you are pushing that the class has to be balanced for PvP... well they'll either need to up the stalker or reduce other people (say make it impossible to penetrate 'hide')... guess which will happen?


[ QUOTE ]
Can't live much longer? Sorry ninja but that's if you have the brilliant idea of attempting an AS in the middle of multiple opponents. Other than that, you just placate and prepare AS again.

[/ QUOTE ]

So waiiiiiit a second... you want it balanced so a stalker can't run over a squishie who he gets alone? Because things should be balanced for when a stalker is fighting a single opponent?

Huh.

Why can't they balance things for when people aren't being stupid?

I mean let's see.... you're in a PvP zone.... there are enemies that can AS you... and you're wandering alone as a squishy... and doing it in such a way that they can walk up and kill you.

Do you often make large cash withdrawals from ATMs on poorly-lit streets, and then walk to the alley where you've parked your BMW?

No class in the game should be gimped just so that other people can be stupid and live. Though we have plenty of evidence that enough people whining will get exactly that.

BTW: I don't play a stalker... so you can toss out all those little tidbits about enjoying killing people with AS. In fact... I enjoy hunting stalkers and making their lives a bit difficult, but that's just me .

[ QUOTE ]
We're not saying that Stalkers should always lose, we just want a chance to fight back.

[/ QUOTE ]

You do have a chance to fight back...

... in fact you have the chance to fight back FIRST.

build up the perception bonuses needed to see through hide... snicker to yourself as the stalker 'sneaks' up on you... then blow him to smithereens.

Or is that not fair to him?

Stop your blathering, the weakness is not in the powers but in yourselves.

[ QUOTE ]
More blasters won't help you if you're being overwhelmed too quickly, and more controllers and defenders won't help you damage that AV faster then he regens.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just to add my agreement with the flaseness of this statement on both sides of the fence:

Blasters that know how to use their powersets can certainly help you keep from being overwhelemed, be it fear, knockback, or secondary slow effects.

By that same token, a good controller/defender can make AV missions easy.