What I'm learning on how to lead a group


Aakan

 

Posted

(yes, I'm aware that my hyphens are excessive and in some cases inappropriate. Bah. it's 2AM what do you want from me )

What I'm learning on how to lead a group

directive 1 - NO BLIND INVITES. Ask, always ask. It won't kill you. No conjunctions, no leet speak, no canned macros. FORM A COMPLETE SENTENCE. Do not ask people who are not flagged lft. Psychology is important, most people will respond that you took the time to ask them, if they ask reasonable questions, answer them. You want people to want to team with you, not accept the invite because they feel they have to. Try to acknowledge them in some form after they accept. Nothing says welcome like five minutes of complete silence after being added to a team.

directive 2 - Know your team. If the team is wiping, don't keep piling on members in the vain hopes of overwhelming the opposition. The archetypes exist for a reason. USE THEM. More blasters won't help you if you're being overwhelmed too quickly, and more controllers and defenders won't help you damage that AV faster then he regens.

directive 3 - Set a reasonable task. Everything does not always have to be set to invincible - Everything does not always have to be purple and every team does not have to be maxed at 8 before you start. Most people will respond to white to orange con minions, and most people don't even mind occasional spurts of blue (as long as it does not become a sea of blue). Don't be afraid to be selfish and concentrate on your own missions. Simply because you know what to expect from them, and as long as you are doing your own missions, you can be sure the mission levels will be a reasonable challenge/reward level for your group. Keep your people moving. Everyone hates downtime. There's nothing wrong with occasional five minute breaks, but not after every mission. Everyone needs to sell, train, bio from time to time. So for pity's sake, certainly don't kick someone if they're AFK or absent for short periods - but KEEP THE GROUP MOVING. Know the map, if people are having a good experience and not having to travel far inbetween missions, they're less likely to drop inbetween missions. Contrary to popular belief, most people don't like standing around /e dancing with nothing to do for long periods. If 4/5th's of the group is present, and waiting on someone else who is overdue, start the mission, they will catch up.

directive 4 - Keep the level spread tight. It might be tempting to add lower level people to drive the group total up because you know your high level people can handle it, but don't do it. Know their levels, keep the delta tight. There shouldn't be a diffference of more then 4 levels between your lowest level person and your highest level person (after sidekicks). EVERYONE FIGHTS - EVERYONE PROFITS.

directive 5 - psychology is important! You want people to want to team with you. The star is not a party pipe - don't pass it around so everyone can have a smoke. It is not necessary to pass it around just to avoid having to spell people's names who want invites. Be decisive, sometimes you need to start the attack. If you're a blaster, pull, if you're a tank. Charge. Talk to your team - You don't have to write essays. Sometimes "ready" is fine - as long as you're sure that at least a few of them of them respond in the affirmative. Tell them what you're doing. "pulling the tank on the right". Ask! "Can someone lock down that void please?" "Adds on the right". Most people want to do well, if your team is flowing well, shut the heck up and let them keep going. If there's open discussion of tactics, listen and try to follow their ideas. If not, ASK. What if we did it this way? Most people are willing try it the leader's way at least once, and if the leader's way works. BONUS. Some teams respond to micro. If you've ran with a team for a while - and they're like that, don't make excuses, just do it. Keep your instructions precise and EZ to follow.

directive 6 - Accept the wipe. Nobody's perfect - and even if everyone does everything right - sometimes people will die. No plan ever surivives initial contact with the enemy completely intact. People are gonna die, but most people are willing to accept the occasional bloody nose as long as the XP outweighs the risk. Accept erosion - It may be frustrating to keep looking for new people constantly, but it cannot be helped. It is a fact. Take consolation in that you can do some to mitigate it. Do not underestimate the psychology of an effective leader. I have often found that groups have a tendency to collapse when the leader leaves. ESPECIALLY when an effective leader leads. I have often found that I am sometimes able to keep groups from collapsing completely for long periods simply by remaining myself. See directive 5, psychology is important. Some death is inevitable - but excessive death leads to frustration - frustration leads to more death. Learn to recognize the signs - if your group is becoming frustrated they will get themselves killed. They are inappropriate to the task. You either need to adjust the group accordingly, or set a different task.

Finally - you can't be afraid to tick people off. Some people are going to think you're a idiot, others will think you don't know what you're talking about. In fact, you can't be afraid to let the majority of the people on the server think you're crazy. CoH is a microcosm of life, if you're lucky - you might make friends with an extremely small percentage of people and the rest will tolerate you. If you're fortunate enough to lead some effective groups, folks might start to send you the "so what are you up to?" tells. THOSE ARE A COMPLIMENT. You want people to want to team with you. Always reinvite those people!

Leadership principles in CoH aren't that different then they are in real life. If you don't think you're comfortable leading, THEN DON'T. If you don't feel like you know the game well enough to lead, THEN DON'T. "But I won't get a group if I don't!" Bah Humbug. If you collapse into a little puddle of unproductivity without a group, then you probably shouldn't be leading. It's true, sometimes XP is easy - sometimes it practically falls in your lap. Regardless, the people that ought to leading are the ones who aren't afraid to leave the cave, kill something and drag some XP home for themselves when it doesn't.


 

Posted

Some very good points!

Also when forming the team,Archtype balance is the make or break of some very good teams.

Also don't think more team members is always better, sometimes less can be a better experiance.

I really have my most fun when I form a team with one from each Archtype. The way the powers blend when you do that can be really awe inspiring. This works in both CoH and CoV.

But like the man above said, idle toons hit the quit key quick!

Keep the missions moving, keep the lvls tight, balance the sk/exemps and then fun and xp shall be had by all!


 

Posted

We put together a (mostly) pick-up group 40-43 this evening that did a particularly nasty 43 carnie mission. I'm not going to lie. We wiped. Once we even wiped because the group listened to me and tried out one of my strategies. (In my defense, it kinda worked - we wiped, but we took most of them with us )

And you know, maybe some of the group members would disagree with me, but I think it was worth it. There are seven toons on freedom server that truly earned their night's XP tonight!


 

Posted

Excellent article, 5 stars from me. I've always ended up being the reluctant combat leader, usually because I understand strategy better than most players out there. However, I've always avoided the star, because I don't want the responsibility that entails. After reading this, I think I might actually try to form my own teams now, instead of leading teams with bad leaders. Check out my handbook below for some good combat tactics.


 

Posted

Awesome. You really got some great points in there.


 

Posted

I'm not gonna lie, it gets exhausting from time to time. Sometimes people respond better then you do. We tried to to do a Malta mission the other day and got BEAT DOWN HARD. Honestly, I would have [censored] at my people a bit more to try and get them to leave, we thinned out down to 4 because the 5th had to go pick up his roommate. But the remaining group wanted to stay, so I tend to think it was one of those situations I needed to shut the heck up and let things unfold as they will. On the bright side, I educated some people who'd never encountered Malta on the dangers of Sappers. On the downside - we really did get smacked down pretty bad - I don't think anybody left their with less then 200 grand debt.

In retrospect the only thing I would change to this since I wrote it is to add a directive that emphasizes the value of patience. On freedom, at least, it's damn hard to get a decent defender/controller/tank - I'm constantly popping up the lft-search window, but it's something leaders just need to accept. See directive 2 - the archtypes are important, you're not going to get defense by wishing you had it.


 

Posted

I liked all but one part of your guide. the part that says its alright to do just your missions. I will drop a team if I seem a leader just doing their missions, 2 in a row fine, but if the 3rd is theirs also I drop. I have my contacts to keep up with as well, which is why I mainly solo, You doing your arcs and getting a bonus for completing doesnt give the rest of the team that helped the bonus for that arc as well. Nor a souvenir (Yeah I know they are useleess, but I still collect them.)

If and when I lead I always alternate through everyone. I rarely group with more than 4 people either, at 8 its hard to cycle through everyones before everyone levels and thier next mission is now blue, unless they raise their difficulty.

Otherwise, I like the other portions of the guide. Good Job. now if people just read this, Everytime I log in with my main within 10 minutes I end up with blind invites to join them. Yet I have my lft turned off, and in my lft window i have typed "Leave me alone". Grrr. Those people get added to my ignore list right then and there.


 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]
I liked all but one part of your guide. the part that says its alright to do just your missions. I will drop a team if I seem a leader just doing their missions, 2 in a row fine, but if the 3rd is theirs also I drop. I have my contacts to keep up with as well, which is why I mainly solo, You doing your arcs and getting a bonus for completing doesnt give the rest of the team that helped the bonus for that arc as well. Nor a souvenir (Yeah I know they are useleess, but I still collect them.)

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You bring up a good point; one doesn't want to have selfish leaders. Personally, when I'm leading a team, I'll start the group off with one of my missions, then immediately after we exit the mission I ask if anyone wants one of theirs done. If no one speaks up, I try to randomly rotate whose mission gets done, but I'll always try to keep it in the zone the team is in.


 

Posted

I'll concede. It's potentially selfish - but consider, it's the only way to make sure the team will face appropriate challenges. Especially since they patched in different difficulty levels for different players. If I had a buck for everyone who maxed their difficulty even though they knew they can't handle it.

Consider this possibility - why is it so few people actually want to lead? If you don't believe me, put together a team - run a few missions, and make up some reason to leave, then ask if anyone wants the star. I promise you people will disband and hot potato left and right rather then take over.

Why is that? What's so awful about the star? It's a pain in the tail. I don't know about you, but I can honestly say; I don't mind if the leader gets some bonus XP, simply because leading, at least, leading well, is work. Consider it compensation for extra time and effort.

I'm not completely against spreading out the mission load among people's missions. But it's a dangerous path - this person's missions are too easy - this person's missions are too hard. Psychology is important, consistency is important. People respond to productivity.


 

Posted

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I liked all but one part of your guide. the part that says its alright to do just your missions.

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JC2k4 said "don't be afraid to be selfish and run your own missions". What I read into that is "Accept the fact that sometimes you have to make an executive decision to keep things moving along at a moderate pace" rather than "be a complete smacktard and force everyone through your story arcs". Sometimes you do not have a lot of good options to pick for your group. Side-kicks and exemplars are great, but unless you have enough to completely flip-flop the team (and are able to convince people to exemplar non-50s) you can consider those players' mission picks to be dead. Some missions can be dreadfully long (like clearing an outdoor map) and not everyone will want to stick it out.

Having said that, usually the first thing I do after exiting a mish and all the mutual-admiration-society stuff is ask for next mish requests. There is a world of difference between being a benevolent well-intentioned dictator and a selfish smacktard.

One thing I would recommend mentioning though is don't be afraid to ask people to adjust their difficulty levels. The BEST use of the difficulty slider, barring bragging rights on the forums, is the ability to tweak the level of critters in the mission for the group you have. Just because the lone lvl44 scrapper or tank can solo on invincible doesn't mean his more numerous 41 and 42 squishy teammates want to be facing +5s or +6s all night. But setting that 41 defender to invincible when the rest of the team are 42s-44s will still provide a fun little challenge for the higher level guys without being overly frustrating for the mission holder.


Princess Grace - MA/Inv scrapper
Solana - Mind/Energy dominator
Lyonette - Kat/SR scrapper

 

Posted

Very good post Jadecritic2004.
Most of the time I am soloing and not looking for a group but I get at least a couple of invites every night. Most of the time I turn down invites. But when I feel that I have gained good xp I will accept invites.
Groups give me a change of pace and distraction from the boring solo play.
Being the team leader can be very annoying/difficult/draining at times. I never start to build up teams but do very often end up with the star. As you already stated psychology is a very important part of being a team leader. The age consistency of your group ranges from teens to people that are in their 40's, so it is not easy to approach everyone in a way that suits him/her best.
Communication is an important tool of being a team leader as well. But you pick the missions, you choose the strategy, you set the pace and most important you try to keep order if things get messy, after all that is why you have the star and not anybody else. A team that is arguing for minutes because they faceplanted is neither productive nor does it help with getting rid of the debt. To know when to listen to your team-mates and when not is important too. And never stop giving advice to new players, this can have a huge impact on their future style of playing and overall opinion about you and the game.


 

Posted

You know, it all sounded like great theory and advice... until I've read the "success" stories.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not gonna lie, it gets exhausting from time to time. Sometimes people respond better then you do. We tried to to do a Malta mission the other day and got BEAT DOWN HARD. Honestly, I would have [censored] at my people a bit more to try and get them to leave, we thinned out down to 4 because the 5th had to go pick up his roommate. But the remaining group wanted to stay, so I tend to think it was one of those situations I needed to shut the heck up and let things unfold as they will. On the bright side, I educated some people who'd never encountered Malta on the dangers of Sappers. On the downside - we really did get smacked down pretty bad - I don't think anybody left their with less then 200 grand debt.

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And yet apparently it never occured to you to practice what you preach. E.g., get everyone the <bleep> out and reset on a lower difficulty setting. Especially after some people had left and the team was under the number it was instanced for. (Please, please, please, don't tell me that ridiculous outcome was on "Heroic".)

Everyone ending up with 200k+ debt in a level 40-43 mission doesn't strike me as great leadership. And that's already understatement of the century.

I've only once gotten 125k or so in a single mission in that level range, and that was with a leader and a team (well, ok, only half of them were clueless) who had trouble even following simple tactics like "we must kill that one first". That's not a leader I'd ask for leadership advice. That's a leader I made sure to refuse to group with ever since.

And against Malta? Malta? There's a single Sapper per group, even in 8-man teams. You don't even need an empath for that. Just concentrate firepower, and there goes the Sapper. Now there are occasional overlapping groups, roaming patrolls, or the odd ambush just around the corner, so I won't hold it against anyone if a team wipe or two occur. But 200K debt against Malta? At level 40-43 in I6? Geesh.

[ QUOTE ]
In retrospect the only thing I would change to this since I wrote it is to add a directive that emphasizes the value of patience. On freedom, at least, it's damn hard to get a decent defender/controller/tank - I'm constantly popping up the lft-search window, but it's something leaders just need to accept. See directive 2 - the archtypes are important, you're not going to get defense by wishing you had it.

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Yes, archetypes are important, but what's more important is if you know how to use them. A 4-person team should be able to do a non-AV mission, yes, even a Malta one, without 200k debt, even if it's 4 Blasters or 4 Scrappers. In fact, _especially_ a Malta one: if you take out the Sapper first, the Malta become just slightly more than paper tigers.

It will go slower, it will involve more resting, it might need setting the difficulty lower or running to buy a few inspirations, it might even involve a wipe or two or three. But over 200k debt just tells me "utterly clueless."

Or how about doing something else, if you've hit a mission that absolutely can't be done safely without a good defender, controller and tank? Ok, I'll swallow the hypothesis that you might have hit a rare mission configuration where there just were no viable tactics with less than a perfect team. It could happen. So how about doing another mission? Or someone else's mission?

You preach doing your own missions as a way of knowing what risks the team takes. Did you even stop to think that at that point it's obviously too high, and maybe doing someone else's mission instead can't possibly be any worse than that?


 

Posted

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And yet apparently it never occured to you to practice what you preach. E.g., get everyone the <bleep> out and reset on a lower difficulty setting. Especially after some people had left and the team was under the number it was instanced for. (Please, please, please, don't tell me that ridiculous outcome was on "Heroic".)...You preach doing your own missions as a way of knowing what risks the team takes. Did you even stop to think that at that point it's obviously too high, and maybe doing someone else's mission instead can't possibly be any worse than that?

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It isn't my intention to pretend to be perfect anymore then it is my intention to how did people put it, a selfish smacktard? I freely admit - The Malta smackdown was not my finest hour, but I have my reasons. To illustrate, I will even quote what I said.

Fact - I tried to convince the Malta group that this wasn't worth it, and we needed to pull out and cut our losses. They didn't want to do it. Some of the guys were having fun, our tank was actually enjoying the challenge, and others just plain didn't want to admit defeat.

Theorhetically, I suppose I could have kicked them all for their own benefit, but that's walking the line dangerously close to smacktard in my own personal opinion.

Quote from directive 5"
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Most people want to do well, if your team is flowing well, shut the heck up and let them keep going. If there's open discussion of tactics, listen and try to follow their ideas. If not, ASK. What if we did it this way? Most people are willing try it the leader's way at least once, and if the leader's way works. BONUS. Some teams respond to micro. If you've ran with a team for a while - and they're like that, don't make excuses, just do it. Keep your instructions precise and EZ to follow.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Malta team - despite the fact that they were getting pounded, were trying to use their heads; there was open discussion of tactics - people using their heads, and we were making progress even though it was at some cost. Better then 2/3's of these guys were people I'd run with before. I knew that most of them didn't need me riding them. See directive 1:

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You want people to want to team with you, not accept the invite because they feel they have to.

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and finally, directive 6:
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Accept the wipe. Nobody's perfect - and even if everyone does everything right - sometimes people will die. No plan ever surivives initial contact with the enemy completely intact. People are gonna die, but most people are willing to accept the occasional bloody nose as long as the XP outweighs the risk.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Malta team did the best they could with what we had at the time.

People will think what they will of me, that's fine - I accept that; But I humbly submit that 200k debt at level 43 isn't that bad. I paid mine off in a day, probably wouldn't have taken that long if I hadn't stumbled as much as I did trying to solo some things. As I said, directive 6. Everyone has good days and bad days - and the hospital system is there for a reason. People who want to be completely safe all the time ought to stay in Atlas Park.

As for the whole - selfish/not selfish, do the leader's missions debate. I accept that there's some value on both sides, what's important is not "hey you <bleep> do all my missions!". What's important is consistent payoff, and that you don't have people running halfway across the map to hollows to find grey mobs, waiting another 10 minutes while the mission owner finds out that grey mobs set to invincible usually just means more grey mobs with the occasional blue boss. I never liked monkeying with the difficulty slider. Most people have no real conception of how to use it effectively anyway. As I said in the original post, everything does not always have to be set to invincibility. Consistency is the most important thing. Set a realistic bar that is at least somewhat ambitious, then do everything you can to meet it.


 

Posted

All in all, its a great guide IMHO. Thanks and should be a must read!!


I have many characters...

 

Posted

I thought you were pretty accurate in most things. One thing I would add is "Always assign someone to point position". This is the person to follow, this is the person who picks the mobs to engage. It can be the guy with the star or not. Nothing will kill a group faster than 1/2 the group running one way and 1/2 the group running another and each bumping into large spawns. One toon is the point, usually a melee toon. Makes things real easy to have everyone know they should be following player x. This also frees up the leader (when it is not him) to concentrate on tactics or any personality issues.

Which brings me to the next thing I would add: don't be afraid to kick a non-productive or counter-productive player. I was on a team recently where the scrapper was complaining constantly about the tank: tank couldn't hold aggro, tank's build sucked, the scrapper got the tanker so flustered he really couldn't do his job correctly, and they were spending more time typing than fighting. And then the scrapper was complaining he wasnt being healed fast enough. Wah wah wah. It was clear the scrapper was just a crybaby, and an obnoxious one at that, I sent multiple tells to the leader asking him to kick the scrapper, leader didnt want to kept saying we needed his damage, finally the leader passed me the star and I kicked him. Team ran much more smoothly after that.

Finally, I wanted to agree w/ PrincessGrace re: adjusting the mission slider. In most groups I play with we are constantly adjusting the difficulties to accomodate diverse levels and still allow the lowest or highest members a chance to have their missions run.


 

Posted

Excellent post Jadecritic!!!

I usually just read, but I had to give you kudos. I've only been playing this game for about 7 months now, but I wish I had this guide to learn the ins and outs of teaming up. Unfortunately I had to learn the hard way, but I've since gotten tons of compliments from former members of teams I have run. Sending tells and indicating the levels of the mish are definitely key to finding teammates.


"Character consists of what you do on the third and fourth tries." - James A. Michener

 

Posted

Kotone, I think you're doing great a leader. I haven't had a single objection or compliant working with you in your pickup groups.


 

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I was wondering how long before I'd get caught by someone who'd met me in game. I don't remember the other alts, but I do remember Miss Apprehension!

I put together another PUG this evening. One of my regulars started telling me we should organize an SG. I find that somewhat flattering


 

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Fantistic Guide!!! I, like an earlier poster, always avoided that pesky star. Unavoidably, for about two months straight, in every pick-up group I joined I ended up being the first team member added. As soon as the leader left that star plopped down right next to my name. That was always my cue to leave until finally, one day I just said screw it I'll take the stupid sheriff's badge. I've got to say I typed my fingers off, but I had the most fun I had since opening the box. I still rarely form my own groups but now when that star slides down, and it's at least a fairly decent team I gladly take the reigns. It is a lot of work, but it can be a lot of fun too.

The one thing I would add is a furthering of the importance of psychology. It is imperitive that you know the mood of your team. I personally like a team that can goof around a little bit. A chat window full of LOL's is a much more enjoyable experience for me. Some players hate this mindset. They want everyone to be super serious. For the most part though, I think joking around at a reasonable level raises the spirits of the team and makes the whole night a blast.


 

Posted

good guide, but i think there should be one on teaming in general. other than inviting and selecting the mish, the star doesnt mean squat in my experiences.

ive been on several teams in which i did not have the star, but i was looked to as the "leader" when it came down to the mob busting. so star would pick the mission, we get in, i lay down the strategy and we go at it. sometimes(most of the time) we creamed the competition, sometimes we met back at the hospital. but these were still good teams.

and sometimes, though i had the star, and kept it so i could choose my missions, i deffered the in mish leadership to someone else, either because i didnt feel like doing it, or thought they were doing a better job.

but imho the BEST teams are those in which the team meshes in such a way that the entire idea of a leader seems irrelevant. yeah, there may be a call "pull here" or gimme a "snipe on this guy" but they are more like the free flow you mentioned, and not comming only from one source. on a team like that, the /e dancing between some missions isnt much of a problem, because you're using that time just to chat with the people you have been kicking butt with all night, and thats just as enjoyable as the fighting.


 

Posted

Because of how long I play, I usually just up and end up leader. I don't *Like* to end up leader, but I am reasonably good at it.

Again, because of how long I play, I usually intimately learn my team's powers and how they use them during a fight... This is a key, KEY part of leading. Know not only your teams abilities, but capabilities. And help 'em out if there's something they don't know.

Leave a vector of Escape. 100% of the time, you want a panic button, even if that's a "RUN!" command while you stand your ground. Save your team from debt, and they'll love you untill you screw up. Do it often enough and they'll still love you after that

One really, really funny thing that happens to me a few times a week goes as follows:

I'll be soloing in a PVP zone and get a /Tell from Loki's Flame asking if I have a healing missile, because a 7 player team at +3-4 my level with no healing whatsoever just got overwhelmed by baddies. So I'll hit Warburg and grab a missile, go to the mission, set it off (Usually by this point, some people have dropped and they found a healer anyway) and proceed to get myself killed trying to solo a few mobs while the group retreats.
Then I'll go off exploring and crack with the wise, trying to make the mish go faster. Generally I get killed again.
After we all complete the mish, the old leader usually drops, taking 1-2 people with them and I end up with the star.

This begins my teaming session.

Now, sufficive to say, the team usually starts out with a small ammount of confidence in my leading ability, mainly the only point in my favour is that I'll go ballz to the wall for them, against things I have no business fighting. After the next mission, I get the general feel for the team and start to actively lead.

We do a few mission strings, I try to spice it up by adding a few missions from other people while advancing my own-Especially "Kill X# of Y" missions on the way to a door mish.

That way, no one gets left behind. After every mission or 2, I ask if anyone has one of thier missions they want done (Unless someone has already said so in chat) and we do that.
Keeps everyone happy.

Attrition isn't too bad, as it's easy to pick up people in the low-mid 30's simply by sending out a few invites. Tells aren't too neccisary as most people in my range have teamed with me before, and half of them are on my friend list. I'm not above sending invites to new people, but I generally don't need to, as SOMEONE in the group knows a friend LFT 80% of the time. So all the /tells are sent for me.

It leads to a fun and entertaining night, with much XP had by all (I usually either start the day with debt and end with none, or start with none and end with lots)

Just my experience


You can't spell Slaughter without laughter

All your gonna do is just farm behemoths anyways.

My thoughts on November 30.

 

Posted

Great post, alot of good info in there. I agree with alot of wht you said. I do try to spread the missions out through the team though, even if they are a little old it really only takes 5-10 min to clear it for them and they appreciate it.

The other place where I disagree, and I'm surprised noone else pointed it out was this statment about defenders.

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More blasters won't help you if you're being overwhelmed too quickly, and more controllers and defenders won't help you damage that AV faster then he regens.


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I hope that you would agree that some defender sets can definitly raise damage output for the entire team. From the rest of the post I want to believe you didn't quite say what you meant to.


 

Posted

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More blasters won't help you if you're being overwhelmed too quickly, and more controllers and defenders won't help you damage that AV faster then he regens.

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Just to add my agreement with the flaseness of this statement on both sides of the fence:

Blasters that know how to use their powersets can certainly help you keep from being overwhelemed, be it fear, knockback, or secondary slow effects.

By that same token, a good controller/defender can make AV missions easy.


 

Posted

Well, I'm not going to deny - I may not have commuicated my intentions well. But I still stand by my intent.

Please allow me to rephrase.

It is a rookie mistake to assume that party balance and class balance mean nothing. It is very, very common, in teams that are consistently wiping, to spam invites to anyone who happens to be flagged lft at the time regardless of archetype.

OK, here comes the part where I potentially get myself in trouble by saying something potentially controversial. It is true that intelligent members of any type can show some ability to adapt. When you have the star, it is incumbent upon you to realize the people you're spamming invites to, may well not be intelligent.

(Encountered this phenomna the other day. Met a controller, not even out of his teens, wanted to know if the team wanted him to HERD)

Conversely, if you're talking to someone who knows what they're doing; by all means, consider an invite.

(Encountered an example of that as well. I know an Earth/Storm controller; when I first invited her, it was only at the request of a mutual blaster friend. See directive 1 - You want people to want to team with you. Psychology. At first, I thought she was relatively unmemorable. However, lately I've noticed she's been learning quite well. Her situational awareness is improving to such a degree that she's on top of problems I didn't know I had. I'm not shy about inviting her anymore, even if I already know I have some controllers.)

Thus the following is an attempt to rewrite directive 2

directive 2 - Know your team. If the team is wiping, don't keep piling on members in the vain hopes of overwhelming the opposition. Archetype and party balance is important, and there is an old expression that is something to the effect of, insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

Invites are not like spam. You don't get credit for spewing as many of them as possible in any random direction. Accept that the solution to many problems may not be to keep piling on heroes like tinder on a campfire.

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but imho the BEST teams are those in which the team meshes in such a way that the entire idea of a leader seems irrelevant. yeah, there may be a call "pull here" or gimme a "snipe on this guy" but they are more like the free flow you mentioned, and not comming only from one source. on a team like that, the /e dancing between some missions isnt much of a problem, because you're using that time just to chat with the people you have been kicking butt with all night, and thats just as enjoyable as the fighting.

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Oh yeah, the other day I had the rare pleasure of meeting an earth/kinetics controller in her late 40's. We teased her allot. At first I only teased her because I don't get the pleasure of meeting many old kinetics. Lots of empaths, some rads, some force, some storms, but not many kinetics. It changed. We stopped teasing her because of that and started teasing her because she had fulcrum and knew how to use it. Even I got a little slap happy. POWER OVERWHELMING It's all good though, seems like she can take a joke, cause she's ran more missions with us since. Similar scenario just last night. The bunch of us met a new tank. I admit, I fired on the wrong mob that contained a Nictus crystal. I blew it. I caused a party wipe, that killed everything but the tank. That's not the funny part. The funny part was the tank somehow managed to survive a proverbial sea of unbound nictus. We couldn't even see him, in that cloud of Nictus whaling on him. At first the party was trying to tell him to run until we realized he wasn't dying. Eventually the seven of us just sat their gaping at this sea of nictus. And damned if he didn't win. He got the crystal like 30 seconds before unstoppable dropped, unfortunately, he flew right into another mob and got killed. He later admitted he thought it was worth it because he hates crystals. So yeah, there was allot of teasing and joking - but damned if that boy didn't find himself on 7 more people's friend lists that day.

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but imho the BEST teams are those in which the team meshes in such a way that the entire idea of a leader seems irrelevant. yeah, there may be a call "pull here" or gimme a "snipe on this guy" but they are more like the free flow you mentioned, and not comming only from one source.

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Yep. If things are flowing well, sometimes it's best to shut the heck up. Most people want to do well, and some teams respond to Micromanagement more then others. As I said, leadership isn't that different in here then real life. Sometimes the best thing a leader can do is stay the hell out of the way until they're needed.


 

Posted

Lots of good advice, so I'll add a little of mine. Of course you've already covered some of these.

* Communicate. Yes, you already said it, but it deserves saying again. Kinetic Defenders have a strong heal that is mob centered, so it's useless if people run far away from mobs. Many characters get AoE Sleeps, which are disrupted if people use AoEs. Invuln tanks have no Resistance to Psionic, so they need a LOT of help tanking Carnies. Call before you use a Big Nuke, so several people don't waste them on the same group. Go over basic tactics, and make sure everyone knows their role in the team.

* Designate an opener. Everyone follows the opener and the opener initates combat. Usually it's a tank, but it could be a Mastermind (CoV), Controller (Phantom Army) or whatever. That one person determines how fast the team moves from one group to the next, so make sure they're competent.

* Invite Kheldians. Make sure you ask them how they are slotted, because they can play several different roles (often in the same mission). I've got a level 48 Peacebringer, with heavy slotting in Dwarf and Nova forms. That means I can tank and blast very well. I can also play a ghetto healer with max slotted Glowing Touch and every Medicine Pool power. You won't find that sort of versatility in any other AT. Kheldians have on average been around longer and know the game better than non-Khelds.

* You can usually add Defenders and Controllers without a problem, even up to the max team size. Sure you'll be facing more mobs, but your entire team should be stronger as a result. And larger teams have a bigger XP multiplier.

* Everyone pulls their weight. If you find someone who seems to be standing around a lot, hardly using their END, that's a warning sign. I have a little script I wrote that can parse a demo file and tell me how much damage people did in the last mission. It isn't perfect, given that you only see damage that happens near you. But it can give you a real good idea. Last night I teamed with a level 50 Blaster who did less damage than his Emp Defender SK. Fortunately he left before I had to kick him. Of course I don't rate people on damage alone. If I see a Tank that jumps in and keeps most of the agro, I don't care how much damage he does. If I'm blasting mobs who aren't fighting back, I don't care how much damage the Controller does. On the other hand, if I see a high damage Defender who is causing problems by not Defending the team, he's out.

* Don't be afraid to invite SKs. In general I try to make a team all right around the same level +/-1, but I'll fill it up to get good balance, more support, or specific powersets with SKs. After level 27 or so most chars have all of their important powers well slotted with SOs, and can make a significant contribution in high level teams.

* Don't invite someone just because you're asked to. Low level chars do not belong in AV missions, even if they are the SG mate of someone in the team. Don't fill up the last spot in a team with a Blaster when you really need a Tank.

* Knowlege is power. If you don't know how to handle a situation, ask. If you do know a good way to handle a situation, tell. Accelerate Metabolism from Radiation Defenders and Controllers protects against END Drain from Sappers and Carnies, so I always try to have a Rad in the team when doing those. Dark Defenders have PBAoE Psionic Resistance, just what you want when facing Psi heavy mobs. DE Quartz Emanators are kryptonite to SR Scrappers and Ice tanks. Voids and Quantums can kill Khelds really quickly, so make sure people know to target them if there are Khelds in your team.

* Learn tactics. If you don't know why people do things a certain way, ask. Observe. There are many places where multiple mob groups are tightly packed, but you can easily pull one group at a time if you bother. Know when to charge, and know when to pull. Know when to yell RUN!

* Momentum. Keep things moving. It may take a while to form a team, but try to keep things moving after that. Give people time to sell and level, but don't just stand around for 10 minutes while 1 person buys a whole new set of SOs and combines them. It's fine if multiple people want to take a longer break, but don't hold up the team for 1 person.

* Do appropriate missions. I'll put a team together to do one or two of my own AV missions, but then I'll do whatever people have. XP is XP. Know the difficulty settings, and adjust them as needed.


Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
I've moved on to Diablo 3, TopDoc-1304