Tannim222

I've been following this since it was first announced. I played the old PnP as well (ref'd mostly). Heck I still have my self-made Ref-screen with every single rule fromt he main book and all the supplement books, along with the "tweaks" my old gaming group made to the rules.

I wonder how they'll handle Hackers. That imop was the biggest problem with the game, was the virtual world coinciding with the physical world. 1 group of players heading towards the same objective, but the ref had to describe both the real world and virtual world scenes. Then there was all the player-designed programs where a player could create avatars for every program and themselves.

I can't see something like that happening in an MMO, it'd be like creating 2 games. Conceptually its cool, but pulling that off could be rather difficult. I'm betting Hackers will be 'running' with the rest of the team and have programs (attacks / skills) to bypass security, obtain hidden data, take over defense systems, etc...

Another one that'd could be difficult to pull off is the Rocker. Imagine a 'punked out bard with his brain plugged into his guitar and he can mez entire crowds into action. If I recall, it was ultimately possible to entice up to 10k people into doing something.

How about the fact that Paragon Studios posted job openings on 8/21. If you don't have the funds to pay for a position, how do you create one?

I've said this before, but using one bit of data then with nothing else to go on but guessing does not make your statement any more factual.

If anything, taking into consideration that Parason Studios wanted to purchase the IP and game from NCSoft, they had another project in the works (some say 2 but I only know of 1), they had a healthy (not maitenance) staff developing CoH with several issues planned out ahead of i24 with general plans into next year, the studio was still hiring, all gives indication that the studio was opering on some type of profit.

That's not it. If I'm not mistaken, the one I recall was post-trial, possibly a consolidation of info(?), which included one or more statements by RG, not just his representation.

Either way, it doesn't matter. NCSoft - or management within the company, was proven to be wrong in that case. It's over and done with. One way or the other, the company tried to pull one over on RG and he went to court and won his settlement. Hence, the issue is settled. Arguing over wether or not it was a forgery or misrepesentation doesn't matter as the result is still the same, people within NCSoft did something wrong in the eyes of a court of law. That is what's important about that story.

How it pertains to what's going on with CoH is important because when the company says one thing, and some info begins to surface that something else was going on, you have to look at the company's past and if anything about how the company calls anyone to question them in the current situation, that doubt should give reason to pause and consider if they are being honest with players or not.

To summarize, NCSoft hasn't been quite honest with players in the past, has been proven to at the very least, skew the facts in order to prevent a pay out to a (former) employee.

Now NCSoft says they've exhausted all options in selling the game, and we've had several instances pop up stating other wise.

1. Formerly Paragon Studios was making an attempt to save the game

2. A small studio tried to contact NCSoft and was ignored completely.

3. Possibly another small studio tried as well (if I'm not mistaken).

4. Two seperate investment firms attempted to place offers to which neither received a responce.

This doesn't sound like NCSoft exhausted all options at all. It sounds more like they ignored most options. I may be wrong but I'm guessing formerly Paragon made some headway with NCSoft's NA branch, but when things went to their mothership in Korea, the offer was sat on until a proper meeting on it was finally scheduled where it was summarily canned.

With regards to downplaying downix's article because he's a player on the titan network forums, he's consistantly posted over there that he's a journalist first, and this time it happens he was approved to write an article about this game.

Yes, he does have some bias (obviously), but to insinuate he's outright lying, making things up is just as incorrect. He's stated that the contacts he's had chose to be anonymous, they were not studios but actual investment firms, with real offers to make. He chose to honor his contacts so they'd continue to trust him and be useful in future articles - he does write articles on subjects not pertaining to this.

Could he be making everything up? Cetainly, but the details he's gone though in describing journalism, the finance industry, and politics places weight on the side that he's telling the truth. Perhaps he was being a bit liberal with a few choice pieces. Like the RG forgery thing. No it wasn't a forgery in the classic "someone penned his name for him", but what did go down showed NCSoft to be in the wrong and at the very least used his name in an incorrect manner. I remember reading the old PDF where RG himself said it was a forgery - this being probably a liberal use of the word himself, but the description "stuck" and it's how many people recall the incident. So trying to fault downix for using it in the same manner is rather nitpicky in the least.

Ahh, so coming here and telling everyone how their waisting their life in your own opinion makes you that much better? What's the cut off from spending time foolishly and investing time wisely then? What makes it okay to play a game at all when all the time anyone as ever used to play a game particularly as an adult - as it seems your message is more directed toward an adult audience - and not put it toward a more time worthy cause?

I've personally met people who believe adults who spend any time enjoying: sports, tv, movies, video games, board games, rpgs, toys, magazines, comic books, both fiction and non-fiction novels, and on it goes - are waisting time and all time outside of immediate work and family must be put towards more "worthy causes". So anyone who isn't as dedicated to this mindset lives foolishly and they often come off as haughty, and holier-than-thou.

I've been involved in several of the calls to action to help save the game, and I still hold out hope against hope. I also give money to a local shelter, volenteer time speaking and working with men from said shelter, monthly funds to St. Jude, sponser an orphan child in Africa - and keep ongoing correspondence with said child, and I'm involved with several ministries at my church. Oh, and I'm a father of two, and spend way more time with my kids than playing this game. But I still find small ways to help, and still hold a hope that something can change, because...

This is not just a game. It is a community of people, many of them wonderful. People have begun charities, met spouses, kept in contact with distant loved ones, met friends, lost friends, created written, drawn, and painted works of art, and so many more things. All of them spokes on a wheel at which this game is the center. My own deaf son has learned so much from watching me play and playing this game on his own. So manynew words have been adopted into his ever-growing vocabulary thanks to his interest in this game - words he probably wouldn't have spoken until much later if this game didn't exist.

All of this and more is why this game is worth saving.

Except that ML isn't claiming to be an expert at relaying information that's being sent to her via e-mail. All she is doing is providing information as it is given to her.

One of the greatest issues of dispute brought up by just a couple of people are about the financials. She posted information she received from her husband, someone she trusts to provide her with accurate information.

I'm willing to admit that the information may be inaccurate. If so, it was probably a simple misunderstanding of data.

But what some people have done is taken one data point from the NCSoft release and then GUESSED with every single other piece of data they used to come to their conclussion.

When you look at how Paragon Studios was being operated, at the rate of work being done, every sign points to a studio that was self-sustaining and providing a profit.

Oh then why is the game being shut down?

The most likely scenario if PS was providing a profit, is it wasn't providing enough profit. NCSoft was probably hoping to make a certain amount back for their investment into the product, and the game wasn't matching. This target number isn't a single fixed amount for in a fixed place of time either. This number can change, the time frame it must be acheived in change. It's called Return of Investment. This happens in businesses all the time, particularly large businesses with multiple investments.

And when a large company sees that one of its smaller investments isn't providing the return it was looking for? They remove their investment and take what's left and put it into another something else. I'd look at one of the couple of games yet to be released in North America - this excludes GW2.

Now back to ML. As an author, she comes out publically about who she is on a public forum, and posts some bits of info that she claims she received from other people. She didn't have to come out and get involved, but she loves this game as much as we do.

I highly down she's putting everyone on for the sake of furthering an agenda. For one, she's dealing witha group of people that have proven they are capable of using the internet to their advantage. If it were to come about she has been lying to everyone, rest assured, there will be many an upset person, and which will quickly turn into bad PR for her.

About the Titan agenda. The only agenda is to help save this game (thus the community and as many devs as possible) - ideally whole and intact - or at least in some shape or form. For the most part, everyone involved is trying to do something positive while at the same time realizing there may be nothing to show for it at the end but the effort itself.

But there have been several people that have continuously done nothing but spew their vile spunk of negativity into multiple threads. They are not there to be part of the "good fight". They are not here to try and lift people up (which is NOT the same as providing FALSE HOPE!). And be assured, they are not trying to make people "see reality". They have done nothing but try to be disruptive, argumentative for the sake of being contrary, and pull people down.

If anyone reading this says to themselves, it's just a game, let it go. Then please, go. For some, this game has become like a second home, or their comminty hall where they gather with their neighbors, hang out, have fun. People have made friends, fallen in love, reached out to a world where everywhere else they've felt isolated, families have kept in contact - and interacted with one another. That's what this is about. And if that's not how you see CoH as a whole, then please feel free to look for your brand of fun elsewhere. But if part of you somehow resonates with this, then please, feel free to help out in any way you're capable.

It is my hope that at best, that at some point after 11/30 we'll all laugh together as we team up to stomp out some villainy or spread some havoc. But if not, then we'll still somehow find one another and with posted words for kleenex, wipe each other's tears.

Ok, so just going by the report people have guestimated how much it cost to operate the game and decisively determined the game was bleeding money and posting in the red somewhere, but those red numbers have never been shown or spoken about publically.

Not only that but in order to prove the above, Melissa (WW) telling M. Lackey that they (PS) were doing well (as far as game health / financials are concerned) can only be right if she posts their books on line for everyone to read.

Not only that, but in order to prove the first statement true, somone or some people at Paragon Studios are stupid.

Oh and point of fact, but Paragon Studios hasn't had prior games that failed. Cryptic studios had at one point, a bare bones staff working Cityof, the rest working on the Marvel MMO, and from what their banner used to show and a brief post, another game in the inception stages.

Paragon Studios, while having some of the staff from Cryptic stay on, solely worked on Cityof, and recently began work on another game. That is not a third new game with the first two failing.

And by assuming that the point of trying to buy the IP of Cityof because someone knows automagically how to reduce operating costs and make a profit isn't going to lure investors that way. You can't go to a one or more investors with something that is operating in the red - which by the way woud mean they've known it was operating in the red prior to cancellation and did nothing and / or lied to everyone involved- which won't go over well with investors.

So its either that the management of this game dumb as a post, and you and others are right, of which you have nothing to show the game operated at a loss, or

This game was making money, the management team had a healthy staff working with plans well into the next year, and they along with all their staff were just as shocked as players were when the cancellation came down, and some of the management knowing they have a proven money maker are trying to get ownership of it.

Hmm, I wonder which is more likely?

I've had several friends working QA for different game companys in the southern california area and they all made anywhere in the low 30k to mid 40k (the one on the upper end was a lead for his team). The others were small companies, while the latter worked for a studio that made current generation console games for all 3 of the game consoles on the market.

Say whatever you will about when Melissa opens posts the PS studio books on line or how you've fingured exactly how much the game was losing money by, if the game was in such terrble condition, the entire studio wasn't operating in the manner as if it was.

If the game operated at a loss, then why would PS want to purchase the IP and keep the game going?

And in order to do so, they need financial backing, which means investors. How would you get money from investors on a product that has proven to be failing as some have ascertained?

If this game were operating at a loss, then why was it such a shock to every single employee at the studio, including management?

To, these things tell a different story than what some people think is going on with regards to the finances of this game.

While Mrs. Lackey's husband or whoever did their fact checking, they may not necessarily have a background in finance, but that doesn't mean he knows people who do, or people who can provide further information than what we have.

Trying to put down the information she provided because you think you know better doesn't prove you right either. This is a person of reknown character that has the respect of many people (not juts fans), and has offered her services in multiple ways to help save this game in one form or another. I'd say that places her head and heels above people that come to these boards and try to crap all over them with their "superior knowledge".

As I've said earlier I've remembered who provided what information.

This is the relevant post about profit.

This is about the poster's trust in her source.

This is a brief description of who is negotiating with NCSoft and advice on our efforts in contacting NCSoft.

This is one of the last updates on the talks that I've recalled reading. There may be newer info. BTW, she mentioned Brian, who as I've previously linked, she is referring to is this guy

Either way, someone, or some group of people at Paragon Studios has been / currently is, in talks with NCSoft trying to save the game. Those people know how well or poorly the game was doing. If it's worth all the trouble of negotiating to purchase it then it stands to reason it was turning a profit.

What often confuses people is if it was profitable, why would a company can a product? There are a myriad of theories, most point to Nexon's investment with NCSoft. Make of that what you will.

The way the post read was that the game currently was making 800k a month in clear profit. I may be wrong.

Another way to look at it is, if the game was a clear failure and Paragon Studios was operating in the red because their profit was burned out by expenses, then why and with what would they go to the table with NCSoft to attempt negotiating a deal for this game?

*edit*
My previous post regarding source is incorrect, *I think in a way at any rate*, that is our author-player had someone fact check on Paragon Studios and that's where the 800k figure came from. At either rate, she trusted her source well enough to tell others about it.

I don't dispute the game has been in decline for years. That's true.

That doesn't necessarily mean that the game was failing.

What is true is the game was turning clear profit as I've posted upthread.

A profitable game with a full-time studio of staff with active work on an old game, and staff with active work on a new game is not a failing studio.

In my own opinion, a profitable studio with a profitable game is one that is still healthy.

Perhaps because it was?

If the information posted on the Titan forums from our fellow player and well respected author is to be held as true, then this guy communicated that the game was making 800k a month in clear profit. Clear profit = after all expenses. That comes out to 9.6 mil a year which is close to the 10 mil posted earlier.

Either way, this game was not failing, please do not place blame on the developers for the game being closed down. They were doing an AMAZING job with the game. The studio was in the black and as far as everyone was concered when they came to work on Black Friday, they were moving forward with i24 and had plans for what they wanted to intruduce to the game for at least the next couple of issues.

They had a staff of 80 roughly half of which was working on another game related product. That's not done when a studio is failing. Calling the devs failures is for one poor taste, two is misinformed, three just plain trollish when you add one and two together.

Zwil, I will miss your tangents and hats

God bless you and your family. As a man who always puts his family first, I applaud you for taking the time you have availabe to make them a priority. I hope your job hunt provides you with a multitude of possibilities for the choosing, you're great at this gig and anyone who doesn't offer you a job is a fool for not seeing that.