Million dollar idea or Million ton failure?
By
2hawks,
Posted on: 2007-05-19 01:13 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I think it's a nice idea, I don't see it happening though. Others have suggested being able to design your own mission maps and missions before and it's always been shot down.
Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.
Abraham Lincoln
Jack Emmert has stated in the past that he feels player-created content is a red herring because most players don't have the talent for creating good content. He wasn't slamming players; just acknowledging the fact that most of us don't have great plotting/writing skills.
In theory, the idea is wonderful. In practice, you have to assume that every player who builds custom content is doing so in order to benefit himself. "If my supergroup does this content 100 times, we'll all be level 50 with a full compelement of IOs!"
Ryzom's move made some sense for the company. They're small, have a limited player-base, and allowing the player-designed content cuts some of their development expenses. Even so, the biggest problem I heard about was simply that people would design their instances and then hardly anyone would find and use them. (In Ryzom, your custom instance is only active while you're logged in and playing. At least that's how it worked at the time the feature was introduced.)
Ryzom also built their development tools to be tightly integrated into the game. Most of the work (aside from the instancing) was just a matter of telling the game engine that players were allowed to use a subset of the dev tools. If Cryptic's development tools are primarily accessed outside of the game then you're unlikely to see them taking the time and trouble to develop new tools that ARE tightly integrated with the game engine.
I'd love to be able to design my own missions, but I don't see that ever happening in CoX.
Building your own mission maps? I doubt it, for reasons stated above. But...
I could see it as vaguely possible to have people create their own story arcs or TFs.
Look at it this way: There are loads of variants of tech lab maps, with different lengths and rooms. With every mission, you choose out of several map types (office, lab, warehouse, cave, Oranbega, sewer... You get the picture), the length of the mission (in an estimate - four or five levels, first one being small like the Outbreak instance, or Tech contact's first missions, last being... Well, you know the kind) The foe(s), if there's mroe than one type their connection (Hostile they appear in a punchup, Friendly they're talking) glowies, hostages, named bosses. Basically, you're able to make your own pre-end EB Posi TF if you wanted. Not that anyone would, but they could. After it's all organised, the arc/TF can be done as a regular arc/TF from a base item similar to the mission computer that gives the Silver Mantis SF.
Creating your own mission maps is extremely unlikely. But that idea is actually vaguely possible to see int he next ten years.
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In theory, the idea is wonderful. In practice, you have to assume that every player who builds custom content is doing so in order to benefit himself. "If my supergroup does this content 100 times, we'll all be level 50 with a full compelement of IOs!"
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Actually, I'm with Jack on this one. SOME players have the skills to create truly great content. Most don't. Look at just about any game that has ever allowed mods to be made for it. Oh, there is some incredible stuff out there, of course! But look at the bulk of, say, UT mods. They suck. Badly. A handful are good, and those are usually being developed by a full team of modders. The regular mods are not only bad, they're a lazy hack-job of sticking a few superweapons in a big cube map, or making skins that don't have a duck animation or whatever.
I believe a contest of player-created content or some such may be possible. But unmonitored player-created content is just a can of worms.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I think people should be allowed to create a story arc of their own once they get to level 50. One of their contacts will refer them to this other person at whom they can create a story arc. They should be allowed to tinker with the missions a little, like what type of mission it is, like cave, lab or office; what mobs spawn, and how many floors it has, but the details of the maps and where the mobs are should be random, like an ordinary mish. Spawn level and size should be determined by the difficulty, not the player. However, a player should be able to plant up to three named villains for each mish.
Optionally, a player should be able to create a cut scene for any mission they may feel is important to the plot. But only one mission may have one. That same mission can have an EB/AV in it.
@Dragonistic
Unless I'm quoting someone, EVERY SINGLE post above is QR.
<----Female
Dragonistic, Kheldragon, Ink Dyne, KheIdragon, Squiddy Attack
Total level is about 149.
EVILCAT
SEZ YOUR COMPU-TAR TASTE LIKE CHIKIN
I personally love the idea. In my opinion, the system of making the missions and maps should be... Well, honestly, very flexible with a bit of difficulty thrown in on the side.
I say this, because that will dissuade lazier, less motivated users from using the system to make their maps.
I'm pretty sure this can work, because most of the mods for the TES games are rather well done, or at least the ones that add new zones and the like.
Otherwise, there should be a counter for the different missions on how many people have played it, and how highly it has been rated.
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Jack Emmert has stated in the past that he feels player-created content is a red herring because most players don't have the talent for creating good content. He wasn't slamming players; just acknowledging the fact that most of us don't have great plotting/writing skills.
In theory, the idea is wonderful. In practice, you have to assume that every player who builds custom content is doing so in order to benefit himself. "If my supergroup does this content 100 times, we'll all be level 50 with a full compelement of IOs!"
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Jack's not alone in that sentiment, either. Many developers don't want player made content until they figure out a system to easily sort the crap from the good stuff for the players.
"Story builders" can range in complexity, of course- SWG's recent "storyteller" system allows users to stage their own events- even drop combat NPC's of any level range for those in their "story" to beat (no loot, no XP). In that case, they "polished" the tools the event coordinators had.
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Ryzom's move made some sense for the company. They're small, have a limited player-base, and allowing the player-designed content cuts some of their development expenses. Even so, the biggest problem I heard about was simply that people would design their instances and then hardly anyone would find and use them. (In Ryzom, your custom instance is only active while you're logged in and playing. At least that's how it worked at the time the feature was introduced.)
Ryzom also built their development tools to be tightly integrated into the game. Most of the work (aside from the instancing) was just a matter of telling the game engine that players were allowed to use a subset of the dev tools. If Cryptic's development tools are primarily accessed outside of the game then you're unlikely to see them taking the time and trouble to develop new tools that ARE tightly integrated with the game engine.
I'd love to be able to design my own missions, but I don't see that ever happening in CoX.
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I don't see it as likely either, but we might be a decent bit down that path tech-wise already, the more I think of it. One of the devs commented that the engine actually did house many of their world-editing tools, and they already seem to have refined one of them for us (base editor)
Bases are essentially custom maps for PvP / RP. Building off that engine:
- add the ability to place "spawn markers" on those maps. Those would allow for selection of villain group, default animation sets, and possibly customizing some random statements by the bad guys. (no reward)
- add "intro text" on load and completion text
- add droppable "clickies"
- define prefab rule sets for completion (defeat all... click all... etc)
That would be a rather basic level editor... not awesome, and still a GREAT DEAL of work, but you can see how it could progress. From here, we could give the level builder the ability to give mastermind-level commands to spawns (akin to the arena matches).
Then
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Jack Emmert has stated in the past that he feels player-created content is a red herring because most players don't have the talent for creating good content. He wasn't slamming players; just acknowledging the fact that most of us don't have great plotting/writing skills.
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when you're dealing with hundreds of thousands of gamers, some of them are bound to be extremely talented at plotting and level design.
if even half a percent of the playerbase turned out cool, usable content it would add a lot to the game.
user-generated content is one of the futures of the MMO, the company that figures out how to incorporate it into their business model will go a long way toward satisfying player's insatiable lust for new content.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Jack Emmert has stated in the past that he feels player-created content is a red herring because most players don't have the talent for creating good content. He wasn't slamming players; just acknowledging the fact that most of us don't have great plotting/writing skills.
In theory, the idea is wonderful. In practice, you have to assume that every player who builds custom content is doing so in order to benefit himself. "If my supergroup does this content 100 times, we'll all be level 50 with a full compelement of IOs!"
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Judging by mods community (for games like WarCraft, Counter Strike, etc.), players themselves have a way of separating the good from the bad. The good mods gain the most notoriety and popularity and are the ones players seek out to play. There have been some exceptional mods made for various games, and I've no doubt we'd see the same for player created missions.
Of course, I think this, in itself, is somewhat of a red herring. If players have fun creating the content, does it matter how enjoyable the mission itself is? One of the most pervasive philosophies of CoH seems to be "If it's fun, do it!" We say that about powersets and builds and doing certain missions and getting badges. Why go in the opposite direction regarding this? If I spend 100 hours having fun building a mission that few people play, isn't it still successful in the fact that I spent potentially several weeks having a blast putting it together?
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Judging by mods community (for games like WarCraft, Counter Strike, etc.), players themselves have a way of separating the good from the bad.
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I entirely disagree. Go to the most popular downloads of many, many user-built game mods and you are likely to find:
<ul type="square">[*]naked and/or jiggling game models[*]world-destroying weapons[*]cheats[*]the occasional very very good mod[/list]
I do think that user-created content is a very, very good idea for the long-term health of any MMO. Ultimately, we the players have more resources available than the developers do. I just don't agree that the players can automatically filter out those mods which are low, crude, crass, offensive, or inappropriate. Ultimately, somebody on the payroll will have to look at the most popular stuff and decide whether it fits the game plan.
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I just don't agree that the players can automatically filter out those mods which are low, crude, crass, offensive, or inappropriate. Ultimately, somebody on the payroll will have to look at the most popular stuff and decide whether it fits the game plan.
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Players are very adept at filtering out the unplayable garbage.
That takes care of probably 90% of user generated content.
The remaining 10% shouldn't be too hard to sort for suitability and balance.
The model that I keep envisioning is something similar to the CS mapping community.
It certainly churned out its share of crappy, unbalanced maps that were inexplicably popular, but it also generated many maps that equalled or surpassed the 'real' ones, at zero cost to the developers.
Yeah, it would take work to vet user generated content.
But it would be a lot less work than making the content yourself, and you could partner with the player community for the early stages of the weeding out process.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Players are very adept at filtering out the unplayable garbage.
That takes care of probably 90% of user generated content.
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For bug-testing, I definitely agree.
They don't filter out 90% of the unusuable garbage, though, which is a shame; that'd a bit tighter of a filter.
<qr>
While I agree with the above posts, giving reasons why this is not such a good idea in reality... but I have to be honest here, I'd play anything, if it just 'something' new for my 50 chars to do.
I wouldn't go along with the exact mechanic that the original poster suggests, but I had a vaguely similar thought, because I do agree with the original poster that this game could benefit from some user-created content.
Here's my thinking: there are a ton of backstory and mainstory arcs on the hero side that never show up on the villain side, or that get dealt with in maybe one sentence of text buried in a mission briefing or debriefing. There are also factions in the Rogue Isles that we see, but never really find out why they're there, what they really want, like the Trolls and the Warriors and the Tsoo and the Legacy Chain and the Banished Pantheon. Lacking Portal Corp access, villains have next to no access to the Shard or to any of the alternate dimensions. Villains also have no access to Croatoa, either. Overall, the hero side has about four times the missions of the villain side. But Cryptic keeps saying that to produce quality content takes time. OK. Here's my suggestion, the one I was holding off on until things calm down a bit, the one I was going to make next week anyway:
Hold a player-written story arc contest for City of Villains. Players can not create any new NPCs, new factions, or new maps. Just specify which NPC gives out the missions, at what level range. Then write the mission briefings, mission debriefings, and a small amount of triggered NPC text. For each mission, specify which map type and which faction(s). Limit one heavily customized "special" map per story arc, limit one signature hero, archvillain, or elite boss per story arc, maximum of one outdoor ambush per story arc, maximum of one helper NPC per story arc, no temp powers or costume pieces or badges given out. Top three story arcs, as chosen by Cryptic, get implemented.
I think this would be a great idea if implemented correctly.
Say they make an in game mission editor - much like the base editor only it doesn't suck.
Then once you build the map and place spawns you get the option to add clickies, chose the mission type, and finally type in the text that shows when you first enter the mission.
Once done your character (and anyone on your team) has the ability to play this mission. There are no rewards, just fun. Each character can "store" one custom mission.
When you think it's ready you choose the option to submit it to the Devs.
Now say once a month they put one of these user created missions on test. You'd get it from a specific contact that anyone can talk to. The Devs get feedback on the mission from players and if the feedback is mostly good then it gets added to the game on the next update.
the best player generated content is better than the dev generated content. Because players spend a ton more time on the content and because 1,000 monkeys banging away by chance will produce something more interesting than 2.
Players are good at filtering content for both bugs and balance. The key is it isn't a democracy. Players in CoH tend to play the overpowered sets. So devs can look at the most played sets on that basis. The players see that sets are overpowered, they don't necessarily ask the devs to fix it.
They would have to have a test server just for player content. Let other players try it out and give feedback. Then the best player content would be reviewed by the devs for inclusion in the game.
CoH is ideal for this. Spawns are largely pre-defines (a boss, or lt and minion, or 3 minions), loot is random, and xp is for mobs.
So players would design maps and story arcs but wouldn't be able to alter the basic dynamics of risk/reward.
Sometimes player-developed content can bring a fresh perspective to the game as well. For example, one of my favorite Half-Life 2 deathmatch maps was called "Roaches", where you were in a giant kitchen and could run behind the refrigerator and up into the sink. I laughed so hard...
--NT
They all laughed at me when I said I wanted to be a comedian.
But I showed them, and nobody's laughing at me now!
If I became a red name, I would be all "and what would you mere mortals like to entertain me with today, mu hu ha ha ha!" ~Arcanaville
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the best player generated content is better than the dev generated content. Because players spend a ton more time on the content and because 1,000 monkeys banging away by chance will produce something more interesting than 2.
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The devs over at Pirates of the Burning Sea will agree with you (game isn't out yet, IIRC). They set up a system for players to submit art: sails & flags, for example, but with more on the way (ships, jewelry, hilts, etc). They're community reviewed, voted on, and then brought to the devs when they've reached so many votes. The devs always have veto power.
I didn't see boats, but one dev remarked that some player-made ship submissions were far superior to their own because players weren't constrained to dev time economies. Unfortunately, player-developers are also frequently less concerned with things like system performance- I've seen such polygon-rich player-made hairstyles that three avatars together crash even powerful gaming systems.
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Players are good at filtering content for both bugs and balance. The key is it isn't a democracy. Players in CoH tend to play the overpowered sets. So devs can look at the most played sets on that basis. The players see that sets are overpowered, they don't necessarily ask the devs to fix it.
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Disagree here. Players may find bugs, but you'd be amazed how few go reported, and they can have very odd views on balance... particularly in a multiplayer game.
Might I remind you that this game is played by people who make 20 foot tall nekkid women ???
Wonder what their custom content would be like ???
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Might I remind you that this game is played by people who make 20 foot tall nekkid women ???
Wonder what their custom content would be like ???
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Probably something better than the Positron taskforce...
"Never keep up with the Joneses. Drag them down to your level." - Quentin Crisp
"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
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Might I remind you that this game is played by people who make 20 foot tall nekkid women ???
Wonder what their custom content would be like ???
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Probably something better than the Positron taskforce...
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Something like a series of 20 missions, all in the same physical door, all in a warehouse, all just three rooms of +1 and +2 spawns ...
Quick, easy, fast mission completion bonuses ... Repeatable.
What's not to love ???
QR.
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Jack's not alone in that sentiment, either. Many developers don't want player made content until they figure out a system to easily sort the crap from the good stuff for the players.
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One of the games I'm really looking forward to is Pirates of the Burning Sea. The devs there have embraced user created content for ships and flags. Both are managed by a steering committee and flags (but not ships) are rated by the community before they can be used. IIRC nearly half of the ships that will be in the initial release of the game have been made by players.
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The devs over at Pirates of the Burning Sea will agree with you (game isn't out yet, IIRC). They set up a system for players to submit art: sails & flags, for example, but with more on the way (ships, jewelry, hilts, etc). They're community reviewed, voted on, and then brought to the devs when they've reached so many votes. The devs always have veto power.
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That's a great way to go about it.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
I think player created content can be GREAT...if it's handled correctly.
The problem with OK'ing submissions is partially an issue because of manpower. Depending on the number of submissions, you'd need people entirely devoted to reviewing, approving and ultimately putting that stuff into the game. That's not trivial, to be honest, when dealing with 100,000+ subscribers.
We've always talked about ways to get player material into the game...imagine using the base creator tools to make your own missions! Or a your own training room? Maybe some day we can figure a way to put this stuff into the game. The imagination just on these forums alone is so amazing; I can only hope we find a way an outlet for it.
I did a lot of brainstorming at work today, and I thought of an idea that may raise a few eyebrows. First, let's agree that City of Heroes is a great medium that allows people to create their own hero and show it off to the rest of the world. From biographies, to progressive costume changes, there's definitely room for the game to grow in an enormous way. So here it goes:
I used to play a game made by an independent, small budget company known as Nevrax. Some of you may have tried or still play their MMO The Saga of Ryzom. For the budget they had and the limited resources they were given, they made an amazing game, even if it was simply a marketing tool for their engine. I have a lot of respect for the company. After some hard times, they began noticing a "MySpace" syndrome where people thouroghly enjoyed creating their own content and becoming noticed for what they can accomplish. Because of this, they implemented a system that allows players to create their own zones, dictate what mobs are where, and what paths they take. They can control the terrain landscape and stamp outposts and NPC's anywhere in the map. Once they were done, they would submit it and make it apart of the game world. Developers no longer needed to create new zones - it was the player's job and from what I know, the players loved it.
Now on to my point. City of Heroes gives you this opportunity to create this whole storyline and world around your character, but it stops after the costume and biography. Why not allow players to create their own mission maps and storylines based on their character?
For instance, let's say I want to make a story arch based around my arrival to Paragon City but I needed assistance with a few things on the side. Or let's say that I have asked your team of heroes to take down my archnemesis (which can be based off another real life player character). Players could team up, enter those customized missions, and engage in your own happily made story-arc.
Here's a few things I can think of off the top of my head. Picture being able to edit the text that appears when players first walk into the mission like you see now. Or editing the Clue items description and even the Boss names! Best of all would be editing the actual NPC contact dialog that initiaites the storyline and. Picture dropping down the Mission history and reading the editted story created by the hero or villain that made it. The system could be in place where the player can select a predefinded mission map, determine which mobs get placed where, and what kind of AI or pathing they take. Picture the base creation UI when doing this and you'll catch my drift.
I mean, City of Heroes/Villains already allows customization up the wazoo (character creation, base creation, etc.). Why not continue that motif by allowing players to customize their own game content as well?
Of course there will be some problems - profanity, immature or poorly written story lines. I'm sure that the developers can pull together and think of a system to counter that. Maybe create a ratings system that shows the type of content before the player accepts the mission.
I am picturing a hero or villain running up to an NPC contact, clicking on him/her, and then having a window appear that lists all the active custom missions along with a rating.
It makes me giddy inside. Any thoughts?