Million dollar idea or Million ton failure?
By
2hawks,
Posted on: 2007-05-19 01:13 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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for example, we dont have any missions with an insane amount of waves of ninja mobs ( think kill bill, or any hong kong MA film)
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Chimera and his hundreds of ninjas would like to have a word with you. After they've stopped ambushing me in waves upon waves of disposable ninjas. Go in there with a full team and you'll get enough ninjas (and caltrops) to fill several martial arts movies.
I kind of want a Tsoo AV to be a Sorceror with AV powers. Hurricane, Teleport, and some kind of nasty attack. He'd be a pain to fight. 
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I'd definitely play these to break the monotony. My only issue is that people would abuse the thing and the restrictions of the T rating.
Maybe has some sort of agreement before you go into whatever terminal to access these that says you agree that the ESRB rating may change during online play (don't we do this anyway?).
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That seriously knocks down the chaff, and the added workload to the Dev/Support teams, while allowing players the opportunity to actually ADD something to the game they've worked hard on and supported.
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And all we need is a fair voting system and we're in the clear! How hard can that-
Oh. Wait.
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I like your idea of new tilesets heliumphoenix. I'd love to see some of the tilesets that are already in the game be made available for SG bases.
New tilesets for missions would be great. I'd like to see them in conjunction with new mission maps, preferably ones that are randomly generated. Randomly generating maps (within certain guidelines set by the programmers) adds a lot of "new content" with less effort. It also helps fight the boredom by preventing the situation wherein everyone has the whole map memorized.
[/ QUOTE ]I'm taking a bit of a break from the game because I got tired of seeing the same tile sets over and over again. The 'Crey' tileset and narrow tunnels are the worst. Even a simple reskin of the standard layouts would be a little better. Maybe a Freakshow modification to an abandoned Crey or Council base. Or a CoT map that the Council has taken over so there's cables everywhere with halogen lights and portable generators everywhere.
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I have plenty of content ideas for COX, but no way to implement them 
for example, we dont have any missions with an insane amount of waves of ninja mobs ( think kill bill, or any hong kong MA film) and we don't have a Tsoo TF. This TF would allow heros to fight Tub Ci and a giant chinese dragon.
Another idea involves a trial that is a raid on a flying sky raider base and focuses on using current base defense technology for base raids to create a mayhem mission of sorts, but for heros.
If I could create custom missions and tfs and trials, I probably wouldnt sleep...ever...again.
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As has been pointed out, you get the ninjas in the Chimera mish.
Tub Ci turns up in Viridian's arc CoV side and I'm not sure I'd want to fight him.
The sky raider base is done in one of the villain SFs too.
I agree a tsoo based TF would be cool, they are one of the most fun groups of baddies. A BP one also would be interesting.
The other obvious thing to do would be to add a CoV trial/TF where you're trying to blow up the TV reactor.
It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba
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Yeesh Gadget Don - tell us about it! You've been around forever and a day...I'd love to see your Task Force ideas.
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A new posi? :P
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Peregrine_Falcon wrote:
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This can't be anymore of a problem than creating the content yourself. In fact if anything it'd be much less manpower intensive.
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No offense, but I love it when someone not intimately involved in the project tells someone who is that it =must= be simple or it =can't= be that hard.
And some people wonder why the devs don't post as much any more.
--NT
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Just a fun story this reminds me of. In college, we had an assignment where we wrote to a company requesting a job. After the letters were graded, the professor decided to have a little fun and post the 10 worst mistakes in class to show how NOT to write a letter. The #1 letter included the following (long letter, just pulling out the best lines):
Dear Bill,
You need to hire me, I will fix what is wrong with your company. Microsoft needs me to fix its problems and make a competitive software developer.
There was a lot more, but it really had the class rolling. The professor was kind enough to black out his name, but I'd wager it was the kid sitting nearby cussing him out that wrong the thing.
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I think player created content can be GREAT...if it's handled correctly.
The problem with OK'ing submissions is partially an issue because of manpower. Depending on the number of submissions, you'd need people entirely devoted to reviewing, approving and ultimately putting that stuff into the game. That's not trivial, to be honest, when dealing with 100,000+ subscribers.
We've always talked about ways to get player material into the game...imagine using the base creator tools to make your own missions! Or a your own training room? Maybe some day we can figure a way to put this stuff into the game. The imagination just on these forums alone is so amazing; I can only hope we find a way an outlet for it.
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Have an unofficial community trial server, a la Training Room, where community content can be instanced and played through, then popup a feedback box with voting and comments for the author. Top vote-getting instances/modules get the attention of devs.
I don't know how easy it would be for CoH. A game like NWN built the toolset first, then built the game themselves in their own toolset. If your tools aren't in a shippable condition, that's problematic. If your missions/arcs aren't modular enough for import from a discrete source, that's a problem. But man, I would so love to get my hands on a toolset that let me manipulate enemies, objects, music, lightning, etc, all with a scripting language.
In your job, not playing NWN would be basically criminal, but if you haven't, do that. Community content was a huge, huge thing for NWN. They eventually sold "premium modules" made in collaboration with community members. Maybe that'd work for CoH if your tools could swing it.
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I think player created content can be GREAT...if it's handled correctly.
The problem with OK'ing submissions is partially an issue because of manpower. Depending on the number of submissions, you'd need people entirely devoted to reviewing, approving and ultimately putting that stuff into the game. That's not trivial, to be honest, when dealing with 100,000+ subscribers.
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Is that necessarily something that needs to be done though? As far as I know, Ring of Ryzom just implements what people make automatically (sort of like how I don't need my base reviewed before it's created). They just get around the possible exploits people could make by having there be absolutely no rewards. If something like this was implemented, obviously you guys would have to go the same route as it'd be too easy to set up farming missions or a chain of missions with only a couple mobs so people can rank up mission bonus exp.
Of course, the other way of doing this would be to cut out the middleman some and let it be judged by players. Go with the above, but also add a system where players can vote on each mission they try based on various parameters (story, creativity, difficulty, etc.) and then, at the end of the month, you guys take maybe the top 50 and decide which of those, if any, make it into the game. Still requires some oversight on your part, but not nearly as much as if thousands of submissions had to be judged.
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We've always talked about ways to get player material into the game...imagine using the base creator tools to make your own missions! Or a your own training room? Maybe some day we can figure a way to put this stuff into the game. The imagination just on these forums alone is so amazing; I can only hope we find a way an outlet for it.
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That'd sure make an interesting contest. *hint hint* 
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Designing a mission isn't really all that great (as it stands) since you basically get to define the text involved (mission offer, mission acceptance, mission entry, possibly mob flavor text) and a few basic elements (kind of mission, type of clicky (if any), name of hostage/boss, enemy types, tileset used).
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I disagree. There are a lot of already-in-game mechanics that *could* be used for missions but aren't. Take for example the "choose a contact" dialog. Right now it makes no difference who you choose and for most people it's basically a random choice. But that mechanic could easily be used for a choose-you-own-adventure.
Other in-game mechanics that are under-utilized:
<ul type="square"> [*]clues [*]souvenirs[*]temp powers[*]keys[/list]etc. the list goes on. and now with I9 we have salvage and recipes. In other words I think that there are plenty of mechanics for both telling a good story and have some interesting puzzle solving without having to write a line of new code... of course I can't prove any of it. :P
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Yeesh Gadget Don - tell us about it! You've been around forever and a day...I'd love to see your Task Force ideas.
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A new posi? :P
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Actually, my thought for the hellions, skulls, and outcast was to replace Positron, and then take the storyline of the Positron TF and create a Faultline TF out of it.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
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Other in-game mechanics that are under-utilized:
* clues
* souvenirs
* temp powers
* keys
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Are you serious? I have about 10 temp powers cluttering up my powers screen just on my most recent, level 21 character. I don't use all that many of them consistently, so I guess I'm a little abnormal, but I think temp powers are pretty heavily utilized as it is.
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Other in-game mechanics that are under-utilized:
* clues
* souvenirs
* temp powers
* keys
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Are you serious? I have about 10 temp powers cluttering up my powers screen just on my most recent, level 21 character. I don't use all that many of them consistently, so I guess I'm a little abnormal, but I think temp powers are pretty heavily utilized as it is.
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Temp powers are generally utilized as rewards. Where they're rarer (more common recently, though) is as integral, required parts of a mission. Something like in the Statesman TF, where you get a temp power at the end of the third mission which is *required* in order to win the fourth.
I'd love to see an arc that required usable clues (similar to the 'collect this reward!' vet reward buttons) to construct a necessary temp power to defeat the final villain. Or to open a door between you and the final villain. Or that let you *survive* fighting the final villain. Something like that.
Kam
The Hydra mission also has required temp powers. I think something more of this type of thing would be really cool. Player created missions is the way to go as far as I'm concerned. Official missions will always be great but player created stuff has limitless possibilities.
I'mn frankly elated that someone on the dev team even has a passing thought on this subject. It would add SO much.
<QR>
I think people are taking a big step forward in saying that we need a mission development toolset released in order to start this player submitted content ball rolling. The Suggestions forum is full of ideas, some good, some bad, but I feel like that sub-forum is somewhere the devs rarely go.
In order for the player submitted content idea to move forward for CoH/V, what we need first is dev support. They need to be willing to consider player submissions. The fact that Statesman has posted his support is a good one.
I'd say that if he was serious about the idea, the next step is to ask players to design a set of missions (or Task Force, or Trial, or whatever) on paper. Hold a competition. Provide a template to use that might even be an official Cryptic design document. Make players write it all down for dev consideration in a format that can be assessed quickly.
It should be stated that all submissions are property of Cryptic and that there is no guarantee that even the best submissions will ever be used. But it will give you an idea of 1) what the community wants from a story arc / TF etc, unblinkered by knowledge of what is currently possible with the existing mission toolset and 2) you could use it as a gauge of interest in (and correspondingly, required resources for) player submissions.
So, how about it Statesman? How's the idea of holding a contest for player submitted missions strike you?
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This can't be anymore of a problem than creating the content yourself. In fact if anything it'd be much less manpower intensive.
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Just on this point, the big difference is that the devs can trust internal resources so don't have to pour over every molecule of such content. QA can catch the bugs before the players see them. The systems already exist internally to develop new content.
However, player submitted content, especially complex content such as a mission, needs a lot of scrutiny. I could easily be racist, sexist or any other of a whole lot of -ists without ever using an offensive word. I could do it so that my language only means something offensive to other Australians, because the US doesn't necessarily understand Australian slang.
Also, simply skimming for offensive language misses the issue of players creating / violating existing game canon. I can only imagine the fanfic that might be possible if players are allowed to write a mission that (for example) allows players to discover Numina's and Ghost Widow's 'special secret frienship'.
And then there is the whole management of testing. Players can rate player missions, but who is going to do it? If it's up on Test, over time fewer and fewer players are going to be interested in testing another cruddy player mission, or such testing will stop when new dev content is launched. But if it is on the live servers where player submitted missions are tested, Cryptic runs the risk of offensive material and / or buggy material (and I mean really buggy, holes in the mission maps, completely uncompletable mission buggy) being seen by their customer base.
It's not necessarily developing the content that is the time intensive bit. It's QA, it's continuity, it's management of the process that takes up the time.
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Might I remind you that this game is played by people who make 20 foot tall nekkid women ???
Wonder what their custom content would be like ???
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Probably something better than the Positron taskforce...
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Something like a series of 20 missions, all in the same physical door, all in a warehouse, all just three rooms of +1 and +2 spawns ...
Quick, easy, fast mission completion bonuses ... Repeatable.
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With Wentworth's, a Pocket D entrance, a tram line, the hospital, and a base portal within 50 feet of the door.
And the contact that hands out the mission standing right beside the door.
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Hmm I hadnt really thought of the Chimera mission, mainly because those mobs are static and not exactly running round much til the very end of the mission.
Also my Tsoo task force would feature the temp powers to win route, since the end boss would be an Ancestral Dragon that cant be harmed with out ancestral weapons that you have to win in previous missions.
The best part of the TF however, would have to be the starting scene to the final battle. The Dragon owns Statesman and sends him flying, about 200-300 yards in the player team's direction. When he gets up he tells the players he can't handle the Dragon and that it's up to them to save Paragon City from the Dragon.
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.
Not allowing player created content in fear of things that are buggy or inappropriate is ridiculous. Other games have PCC and they are just fine.
The only real issue with CoX having PCC is convincing the Devs to add a quality system that will allow us to make stuff.
I also don't agree with the no rewards claim everyone is making, because the tools could be designed in such a way that the devs themselves could adjust the exp or repeatablity of the missions, or just have the tool itself have some kind of prevention methods.
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.
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I realize of course that my statements are just my opinion, and Positron is certainly in a better position to know just how manpower intensive a project would be than I am. That combined with my low post count and my lack of a level 50 character will certainly lead a number of people to discount my posts no matter how sensible they are.
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No - it's being discounted because you had the gall to tell Statesman (who does this for a living, unlike you) that he was wrong.
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It is my belief that the forum is here for all of us to state our opinions, not for all of us to simply agree with yours.
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You are certainly entitled to post your opinions. Equally we are entitled to point and laugh when you post arrant nonsense simply because you can.
http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/
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You are certainly entitled to post your opinions. Equally we are entitled to point and laugh when you post arrant nonsense simply because you can.
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That's 'errant'. >_>
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Not allowing player created content in fear of things that are buggy or inappropriate is ridiculous. Other games have PCC and they are just fine.
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Could you name some examples? The only ones I can think of off the top of my head are Ultima Online and Second Life. UO has in fact had issues with innappropriate content (arranging buildings to form swear words, for example), and Second Life sidesteps the issue by having separate R rated sections of the game - something that's not such an option here.
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If I could create custom missions and tfs and trials, I probably wouldnt sleep...ever...again.
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Hmm. Social life, or custom mission editor. An interesting choice, in a crystal-meth sort of sense.
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Everyone has ideas like this.
Heck, I've a TF idea with Portal Corp that would be really cool, and "only" require reworking NPCs and (possibley) the way color is processed on video cards (or can you have them render in gray-scale already? Oh! Monochrome all the textures and have everything in Sepia colored lighting!)
Well I don't have a social life to begin with I'm sort of anti social.
Aside from that though, I wasn't being literal with the no sleeping bit. No Loheniens will be harmed should PCC become a reality.
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.
I wluld love to be able to set up custom missions. I dont care about XP or rewards. Just something I can set up as a backdrop for some of the stories I do with my SG/VG. I'd love to set some missions up that are flavored to our own player created cannon. I wouldnt nesicerraly want it open to everyone since it would be out of context for everyone else.