Crafting and Statesman's misunderstanding
By
Acetylene_Torch,
Posted on: 2005-12-02 06:29 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I think it has to do with whta crafting brings to the game for non crafters.
For instance, what are you crafting, a Buff suit of some sorts? Generally it's something that adds advantage to you or someone you could sell it to. It creats a must keep up with the Jones's type thing. It's not quite lewt but almost is.
Speaking of where do you get these materials? Lewt right? Ok well now we have to deal with lewt and the complications that can bring to a game.
If you want crafting to mean something, other than just fluff stuff to creat, then some lewt needs to ubar, that adds more complication to the lewt senario.
Now, if you want crafting for thigns like, special costumn pieces, hey that's cool, or even specail things for base that look pretty but do nothing sure. But that seems a like a boring crafting system to me.
In order to make it mean something other things need to be added, loot, which adds to more common place problems that affect most MMO's.
Edit: Yes I know my typing sucks.
Tal_N, Statesman never said that about crafting, he said that about the skill system. Skills probably won't have you out killing gaint spiders to harvest webbing or what not. It's probably going to be along the lines of, "Alright, I can search the base for the Card Key or I can try Hacking the door" In which case you'd walk up to a computer terminal, click on it and your rank would detrimine if you pass or fail. That's it, all there would be to it. While with crafting theres a build up and an end, Skills would happen in a split second without anything else. Inheriently that's pretty boring. So Statesman wants to make that interaction interesting in some way.
Now the Invention system will probably work just like the current crafting system for bases. But Skills are a different matter.
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In the end though its not the action of building which is what people enjoy, its the gathering and the outcome of the crafting they like.
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Well, "people" may like that, but I find it infinitely boring and a giant waste of time. I can understand where you're coming from, but you also need to recognose that not everyone likes that, and some people (such as myself) outright hate it. If you make crafting a big part of the game, that would be akin to making PvP necessery for PvE. In other words, a bad choice.
Now, if this can be balanced in a way that I don't have to waste my time with it to enjoy the game, or be grossly outperformed by those who do (thereby making me have to fo it), I won't mind. I'm of the "whatever floats your boat and doesn't sink mine in the process" mentality.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Tal_N, Statesman never said that about crafting, he said that about the skill system. Skills probably won't have you out killing gaint spiders to harvest webbing or what not. It's probably going to be along the lines of, "Alright, I can search the base for the Card Key or I can try Hacking the door" In which case you'd walk up to a computer terminal, click on it and your rank would detrimine if you pass or fail. That's it, all there would be to it. While with crafting theres a build up and an end, Skills would happen in a split second without anything else. Inheriently that's pretty boring. So Statesman wants to make that interaction interesting in some way.
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QFT. I've only heard him make statements like this related to SKILLS.
He wants skills to be something you gain in a non-combat manner, which makes earning it potentially not-fun, and therefore if the using of it is a simple click thing, which is also boring, you wind up with a power-up that provides not fun either in the earning or in the using. So he's added a way to increase your capabilities that is neither fun to earn nor use, ergo, time sink. UGH.
I hope he finds a way around the problem.
But as far as CRAFTING does, the fact that crafting is in the game now in one form shows that he feels he has found a way to make it fun and to have risk = reward. So I suspect you might see expansions of crafting in later issues.
In regards to crafting...
The thing that always seems to go wrong with crafting in MMOs isn't inherent in the system of crafting, but in the balance of making crafting useful without making it necessary.
You have people who want to craft in MMOs, and those who do not like it. So you have to balance the items that can be crafted in such a way as to make them useful for those who want to craft, otherwise they will complain that crafting is pointless. But not overly powerful, because then those who dislike crafting will complain that they are being forced into it.
That, and of course, the inevitable economy that springs up from crafting. Some players are born merchants. I know a few people who enjoyed crafting and selling to the exclusion of all other activities in SWG and EQ. They would collect things from hunters, make expensive items, and sell them for a profit. Never setting foot out of the city where they had established their trade. While I cannot understand how this is fun, I accept that this is the way that some people enjoy playing.
When these obsessive personalities become involved, even items that are supposed to be rarely crafted start showing up regularly in the market. Prices start bouncing up and down, and players who do not craft may again feel cheated or at least left out.
Personally, I enjoy CoH for its combat and fast paced action. I have no need for a crafting system to make the game more fun. Others might disagree, but I'd rather avoid the hassle that implementing such a system and balancing it would inevitably bring...
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In regards to crafting...
The thing that always seems to go wrong with crafting in MMOs isn't inherent in the system of crafting, but in the balance of making crafting useful without making it necessary.
You have people who want to craft in MMOs, and those who do not like it. So you have to balance the items that can be crafted in such a way as to make them useful for those who want to craft, otherwise they will complain that crafting is pointless. But not overly powerful, because then those who dislike crafting will complain that they are being forced into it.
That, and of course, the inevitable economy that springs up from crafting. Some players are born merchants. I know a few people who enjoyed crafting and selling to the exclusion of all other activities in SWG and EQ. They would collect things from hunters, make expensive items, and sell them for a profit. Never setting foot out of the city where they had established their trade. While I cannot understand how this is fun, I accept that this is the way that some people enjoy playing.
When these obsessive personalities become involved, even items that are supposed to be rarely crafted start showing up regularly in the market. Prices start bouncing up and down, and players who do not craft may again feel cheated or at least left out.
Personally, I enjoy CoH for its combat and fast paced action. I have no need for a crafting system to make the game more fun. Others might disagree, but I'd rather avoid the hassle that implementing such a system and balancing it would inevitably bring...
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I'm not a "crafter" per say, but I do enjoy creating things for my own personal enjoyment. I think a system where creating custom costume options would be neat. Maybe tie the "power customization" into crafting somehow.
Or even make it so that the players can create their own enhancements that are similar to Hami O's but weaker. Like an enhancement that gives a 20% boost to Damage and Accuracy. That way, a play could have 5 of those in a power and get the same results as having 3 damage and 3 accuracy and then they'd basically have the ability to slot one extra enhancement in that power.
The great thing about City oif Heroes and Villains is that, other than Giant Monsters, all the other content is available to all at any time. This is why the current crafting system works so well for bases.
Need Hellion Salvage? Well piece of cake, they're are tons of them everywhere and I could even run a few missions against them to boot. I don't have to go wait for that one bad guy to spawn in that one spot and hope I can do enough damage before the uber-guy who's been there since 3 am the day the info got posted nabs it first for him and his friends.
If they continue to use salvage, and simply let you turn it into other objects besides base material, I think they could have a very successful crafting system.
Why couldn't I turn a few of those Hellion tattoos into a new "Crown of Flame" costume piece? Maybe that Tsoo salvage will allow me to create the long dress-like robes the Sorcs wear for my character. Maybe I can use that Arachnos tech salvage to not only make a base computer, but a "tech origin" DO or SO of my choice. Have it be done on the same workbenches you already have in bases, and for those not in SGs, have a "Freedom Corps Inventech Base" where anyone can go and use worktables to convert their own salvage into stuff.
This would require you to be able to acquire salvage outside of SG mode, but I doubt that would be that big of a problem.
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I can understand where you're coming from, but you also need to recognose that not everyone likes that, and some people (such as myself) outright hate it.
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You know I hate it when people put things into my mouth, I did state in that post that:
" alot of us crafters don't mind if the process of putting together something took no skill as long as the gathering did and the end result is useful."
I did not say ALL of us crafters do nor did I imply thay everone has the same opinion as myself.
As for the skill system themselves, I fail to see why Jack is finding it difficult to overcome the whole 'click a button and the game runs a number crunch for success/failure' issue. I can sit here for mabe 30 seconds and tell you that if they turn each action of using a skill into a mini-game then it makes it fun. If it's safecracking then have a combination puzzle minigame and if its interogation have something along the line of what The Punisher game did for that with stress levels and pushing the victim too far. If they tie the skills as closely as possible to how they'd function in the real world then it becomes inherantly more fun.
What I suspect is that the devs aren't willing to invest the kind of time needed to create a mini-game for each skill to be used and want a more simple solution which just isn't going to happen.
As for crafting as a whole, who says it needs to be items you craft as the end result. What if its unlockable content which is the end result, the process of an investigation leads to the collection of a bunch of salvage which is assembled to produce a teleporter which gives you access to a certain story arc for example. That is a worthwhile reward even if its not a temp power or anything.
All the devs need to do to make crafting less than trivial is create a supply and demand situation. The devs know what we want so they only have to create the ability for players to supply it. Costume items, base equipment, missions, badges, auras, epic ATs, new powersets.. the list goes on and on. Better still is that its leads to 'uber loot' which doesn't give anyone an advantage other than having more fun than someone else. As long as the loot isn't from a specific spawn like they have with the salvage system then it doesn't lead to spawn camping either.
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I can understand where you're coming from, but you also need to recognose that not everyone likes that, and some people (such as myself) outright hate it.
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You know I hate it when people put things into my mouth, I did state in that post that:
" alot of us crafters don't mind if the process of putting together something took no skill as long as the gathering did and the end result is useful."
I did not say ALL of us crafters do nor did I imply thay everone has the same opinion as myself.
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But there's still the point that this arguement is meaningless as Statesman has never said anything like this about Crafting, but about Skills. The only relation the two will have will be that they're used out of combat.
all i want is being able to use salvage to make enhancements. Not only is it a great idea to get more people into SG mode and salvage, but it solves the infleunce problem people complain about with not being able to buy all the enhancements they want.
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Statesman seems to think that there is no satisfaction in crafting where you just put some items together into a menu and hit build. But the fact is that this kind of thing has been in games for years and years and yet they are still requested by players.
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Lack of crafting is one of the things that drew me to CoH. Why on earth demand same-old same-old? Same-old same-old already exists. I'm reminded of people who go to the first North African restaurant in a town and demand a cheeseburger and fries or go to the first sushi bar in a county and demand fried fish sticks.
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It's probably going to be along the lines of, "Alright, I can search the base for the Card Key or I can try Hacking the door" In which case you'd walk up to a computer terminal, click on it and your rank would detrimine if you pass or fail.
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And if you fail? RED AMBUSH TIME! 
I don't really "get it" either. I don't feel like I'm missing anything in this game by not having crafting. The only helpful thing you would be able to craft is different types of enhancements, and that doesn't sound real exciting to me. It's more fun finishing a story arch for the enhancemnt reward.
They would have to make the system unique and fun for it to work well. Different crafting skills based on different origins and ATs, or something along those lines. And don't require spawn camping to get the ingredients.
Level 50: Furlon the Grim, BS/Regen Scrapper, Virtue
Current creations:
Slaughterface, DB/Elec Brute
Captain Warhead, Rad/Rad Defender, Virtue
Capt. Scar, Arch/Ice Blaster
Global @ Capt. Scar
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What I suspect is that the devs aren't willing to invest the kind of time needed to create a mini-game for each skill to be used and want a more simple solution which just isn't going to happen.
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Another possibility is that the system is on hiatus precisely because he intends to create a engaging, interactive system just as you describe and there simply isn't the time or budget to fit that in currently.
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Statesman seems to think that there is no satisfaction in crafting where you just put some items together into a menu and hit build.
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Actually, I was talking about Skills, not crafting.
What's the difference? In the end, crafting yields a usable commodity. In Skills, you might have unlocked a door or opened a safe or whatever....if I could guarantee that clicking on a computer could yield as cool a reward as an Enhancement, well, that'd be something. But the problem is that there are only a few computers in the world (and missions), whereas crafting is rather unlimited. One needs to undergo risk to gather resources (let's use Salvage as an example), but there isn't much risk in clicking on a computer.
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Statesman seems to think that there is no satisfaction in crafting where you just put some items together into a menu and hit build.
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Actually, I was talking about Skills, not crafting.
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Aaaah!! Statesman, you're alive! We were starting to think Positron had killed you, hidden your body, and taken over.
How was the PR grind?
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there isn't much risk in clicking on a computer.
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There is if failing your Hack check summons an Archvillain.
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...there isn't much risk in clicking on a computer.
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I don't know, States... some of the clicks you've made on your computer have cause alot of chaos around here... 
o_o I don't know... I click on mycomputer some times and odd things happen....
>.> how about a form of crafting that just makes stuff for the base? and by that I mean decore. o.o for outside stuffs (pls pls pls!!! outside base areas!!!) you could have a skill/craft for plants so that you could grow certain ones for your sg to make the area nicer.. indoors you could have table top stuff, maybe some wicker furniture or maybe ramps and things to climb on...
o_o it would be crafting, but not something you could sell or trade.. and it would be nice for decorating the interiors of bases for your sg
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Ya know, if the skills system is going to make people long for crafting, I'm glad it's on hiatus.
One of the best things about CoH is that there is no crafting. Therefore no farming and camping and all the other bad things related to that. Look what happened when they added a single uberloot item (HO's)...
If they do get forced into adding crafting, or crafting-like junk, it better never give an in-game reward that is at all useful for *anything*. Or if it does, anything that can be crafted better be able to be bought at a store. Then the crafters can sit around camping spawns, and the rest of us can continue to enjoy the game mechanics.
I think both Rikik-Dnec and Evil-CoH had very good and workable ideas for a possible crafting system ( if the Devs think there is enough real interest in one ) We would only be able to collect thing randomly from different groups just like the current salvage and thus anyone can get the same materials during normal game play and no camping a specific spot or mob since camping a spot in CoH means no respawn there.
Now since everyone can collect the same materials with NO special ones nobody can be Uber. A Player economy could result from selling unwated enhancements you craft or from selling salvage you have a lot of and buying what you do not have much of. This way the players who feel there must be a player economy and crafting for a game to be complete get what they want without making those players who do not care about such things feel like they have to do them.
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Statesman seems to think that there is no satisfaction in crafting where you just put some items together into a menu and hit build.
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Actually, I was talking about Skills, not crafting.
What's the difference? In the end, crafting yields a usable commodity. In Skills, you might have unlocked a door or opened a safe or whatever....if I could guarantee that clicking on a computer could yield as cool a reward as an Enhancement, well, that'd be something. But the problem is that there are only a few computers in the world (and missions), whereas crafting is rather unlimited. One needs to undergo risk to gather resources (let's use Salvage as an example), but there isn't much risk in clicking on a computer.
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dont listen to them Jack. I have had enough of so-called "crafting" in other games.
The fun is actually in collecting the items and planning what to make. The actual combining is dull.
Dont turn this into a carpel tunnel fest like so many other games are.
Look at SWG... except for the weird EQ crowd most everyone had carfting macroed.. the toons would craft away while most people were afk.
People here tend to argue that crafting would be boring. I suppose that CoH/CoV has lured exactly the kind of players who would find that boring.
However, how different is it running to a mission, defeating everyone inside and returning to your contact from tracking down certain foes looking for specific drops, gathering those resources and building something out of them? In the first case you come away with little more than XP, in the second not only do you get some XP for the hunting, but you also get experience for the craft skill and you come away with an item. And most importantly, it gives you variety. You can log in and have a choice of activities.
Whether we get skills or crafting, it's time CoH/CoV an alternative to fighting. What I don't want to see, and it's a concern I have with skills, is something heavily tied to missions. I'd like something with substance that I can do independently of missions, but which may certainly help with them too. I'd like it to be something immersive that I can partake in for a good portion of my hero's career.
I wouldn't want the skills acquired within a couple of hours of gameplay and I certainly wouldn't want to have to do yet another series of the same old defeat missions just to acquire these skills.
Personally, I think the single largest problem facing CoH/CoV is that there is virtually no alternative to the grind. When it comes down to it a RPG is all about building a character but we're stuck with one way to do so. PvP has changed helped to some extent, but the activities our characters engage in are unchanged.
Tied to this is loot. Unfortunately, many people here seem to have an aversion to loot. While I was intially lured by the concept, having seen the problems involved with loot, I've come to believe that it can also be positive. It offers a way to improve your character without having to wait two to three levels to see any kind of improvement.
All we really have to define our characters is our powers. So, even though we have one of the quickest rates of levelling out there progress seems slow because we have to wait a significant amount of time before anything really changes. We don't see stats, so we're automatically cut off from any numerical improvement beyond the character's level.
We do have enhancements. It's a neat system, and I hate to say it, but those things don't really have any personality. To me they dont feel like the physical objects the text describes, they look like the little graphical discs that they are.
Do I lack the imagination to visualize something more grand? I suppose so. However, I'm not playing a text game. I have a graphical representation of my hero so I have the expectation that everything he interacts with also has a physical presence. I'd like to see enhancements that physically change my hero. And along with that comes the desire to craft items as well.
There is an unexplored world outside of fighting in the superhero/supervillain genre. Heroes and villains often have alter egos which figure prominently in defining who that character is. Thats perfect for skills and crafting, among other things. The most obvious example is Spider Man/Peter Parker and his job as a photographer.
I believe any way of improving and growing your character is a fulfilling one. Obviously, the system needs to have substance and be enjoyable. We really need an alternative to the endless stream of missions and street hunting.
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In Skills, you might have unlocked a door or opened a safe or whatever....if I could guarantee that clicking on a computer could yield as cool a reward as an Enhancement, well, that'd be something.
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Skills don't necessarily have to be "click" based, and even if they are, there are many ways to introduce risk into such things.
* If you fail to unlock the door or crack the safe, an alarm is triggered.
* If you fail to correctly read the ancient text, you misfire a spell.
* If you fail to pacify the wild beast, it bites you in the butt.
* If you fail to correctly identify the poison, your antidote accelerates the damage
There really are many, many, many more examples of how skills could be successfully introduced into missions and even into open zones as random spawns.
* skills could lead to finding clues that unlock a special mission
* skills could be used to slowly costomize the fx/colors of one's powers
* skills should have a direct link to one's origin (i.e. computer skills should be easier for Tech/Science while Arcane should be easier for Magic/Natural)
Please, please ask us questions, Statesman. You will find so much creative energy here you'll have more material than you know what to do with.
while(!sleep()){sheep++}
I find harvesting resources a dull grind but I enjoyed the racial armor quests in EQ.
You'd get special "molds" for each piece, and then you'd get components that would fit in the mold. When you had all the pieces, you'd make the armor. The armor would boost your stats by a little bit.
the molds were actually little UI screens with memory of what you put in them.
you got the pieces for the mold by adventuring.
Something like that would be cool. Not altogether different from accolades that increase stats, however -- just a different presentation.
Possibly for us it would unlock new costume options -- the analogue of "racial armor" could be an AT specific costume screen, and when you'd gotten all the parts, you'd be able to unlock a new option for that piece (e.g. a special design for your feet or AT-specific hair options or crown or whatever).
It's not necessarily any more compulsive to enjoy crafting than it is to enjoy adventuring, by the way : )
I don't know much about bases yet, but whatever the dev's do to improve customizability in them is going to be very popular with some people.
[b]Virtue[/b]
Lady Mantis, Dark/empathy defender
Woman in Purdah, DM/regen scrapper
Gravity Monkey, Grav/kin controller
Stone Woman, Stone/stone tanker
Freyja Incarnate, Fire/invuln. tanker
Head Shrinker, Ill/FF controller
Blowup Doll, AR/dev blaster
Geek of Darkness, Dark/dark defender
Statesman seems to think that there is no satisfaction in crafting where you just put some items together into a menu and hit build. But the fact is that this kind of thing has been in games for years and years and yet they are still requested by players. The WoW system isn't unique and franking the best crafting system I've ever seen was in SWG where you had to place various materials into the menu and their induvidual qualities and stats effected the outcome.
In the end though its not the action of building which is what people enjoy, its the gathering and the outcome of the crafting they like. Even Statesman must understand that its nice to make something which you can give to someone else to enjoy, I mean he helps to make City of Heroes so he knows the kind of satisfation you get from seeing others enjoy what you made. It wasn't the action of making it which is the enjoyment, its the knowledge that you made something yourself and someone else likes it.
The crafting system doesn't have to be detailed, it could just be like the current one with the Forges and stuff. But the items you make need to be enjoyable and how you go about collecting the items should be clever. Those aspects are easy to achieve.
If you want to put it into a superhero themed environment, then gathering clues should lead to forming some evidence which is either used to go on a mission to get an item or is given to an NPC to get the item.
This is more about the destination than the journey Jack, alot of us crafters don't mind if the process of putting together something took no skill as long as the gathering did and the end result is useful.