Statesman, I hope you recognize that the people in this thread so far who are supporting the stealth change do not seem to accurately understand how it is working. Specifically, Link and LiquidX on the first page alone are describing behavior that would be fair and realistic, but is not the current implementation.
On Live, stealth turns off when an attack lands or misses. The target (if still standing) and anyone else in his aggro group sees you. Makes perfect sense.
On Test, stealth turns off when the attack initiates. This means that particularly for a slow attack (Propel for example), they turn around, fire, and villains hit me before I have affected them in any way. Something more ridiculous: Smoke Grenade turns it off so they attack while the grenade is in the air. I'm standing stealthed so they can't see me, I use a power that doesn't generate aggro, and yet somehow they saw me.
How is that realistic in any way?
You can avoid these problems by using your powers from greater range (terrain permitting) but then what good is stealth? Isn't it supposed to reduce your aggro range? Is it really doing what it's supposed to if I can only get close enough to stand there and watch, but for some reason can't get the first shot off?
Leave stealth effects working at the old system which is realistic and fair. Realistically the suppression of Super Speed would be the same way, but I know you stopped listening to anything anyone said about that a long time ago.
Also, can you at least explain the logic of shutting off stealth effects for 10 seconds? I finish a fight, have stealth on, sprint out of the room and turn a corner, and they can see me? They weren't in the room, they weren't in the fight, they weren't in line of sight, but somehow my stealth doesn't work on them? What, am I sweating too hard? This will, at best, introduce an arbitrary 10 second pause after each fight. Again, thorougly unrealistic.
I just don't get it. You want to lower the defense, fine. That makes sense in the larger picture. You want to turn the defense off completely? OK, I guess. But this? Stealth doesn't provide stealth? Please change it back or explain the logic in detail. No more of that "risk-free combat" nonsense you tried to pass off as an explanation last time.
Thanks.
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I still contend that a defense bonus that only applies outside of combat is of no practical value.
I think a much simpler and more straightforward solution is to put the defense bonus at it's "suppressed" value, and leave it there. Much easier for everyone involved, and much less confusing to explain.
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Yeah, I have to agree with this. Although testing in the scrapper forum puts the UNSUPPRESSED defense bonus of stealth (COD was tested which does not lose def when seen) at 2.5%. That means "non-primary" stealth powers have an effective def of 1.25% in combat. Essentially pointless, whether your using a def set or not. So making two different def bonuses for the primary and non-primary powers and removing suppression alleviates some confusion, but does not alleviate the uselessness of the defense buff, particularly when combined with stealth suppression.
Statesman, I think the dev team may be getting a little too caught up in numbers, which is something the playerbase has been for awhile. But your leaving any sort of theme or concept in the dust. Really, what is the point of cloaking device. To allow a blaster to get off a shot without being seen? The blaster can already do this, because of range. What is the point of superior invisibility if it reduces the chance of the controller to be hit by 1 in 40. 1 in 20 if fully slotted. This is pointless. You've removed the def buff of hasten (a good call on a still extremely potent level 6 power), that cut the defenses of most power gamers by 5% right there. You dropped the defense of combat jumping and hover by half, removing another 2.5% from most builds. You crushed the power of defense sets, who now can't even rely on a single minion missing. Controllers, blasters and defenders are not going to be rendered unhittable by stealth powers in their current form if the stealth suppresses (which it should, thematically). In the case of many, the stealth powers inherint in their sets are the sole means of defense, and even with a reduction of stealth powers to an actual number, say 5%, defense suppression isn't necessary. You're talking about a squishie having to expend quite a few slots for a defense of 10-15% under the current system. This cannot possibly be considered an overpowering level of defense. Worried about stealth and cloaking device stacking? Make sure they don't. Make sure stealth defense bonuses and effects don't stack.
The reason I'm arguing so fervently for the bonus to be restored is that it's among the more conceptual powers in the game. Invisible controllers, shadowy scrappers, chameleon suited blasters, cloud covered defenders, are all pretty neat things. And should gain a benefit. I know that you're worried about the effects of combined def and resistance, but given the changes to primary powers which provide this, I don't think giving stealth a reasonable defense bonus is going to break anything at this point.
From a practical matter, the def changes don't make sense. I can actually see your point for the power 'stealth', which implies simply a shadow blending ability (even thought it's the one I bloody use) and assumes you must emerge from the shadows to fight. But most other stealth powers do not imply you become more visible when you fight. Cloaking device imparts either invisibility or a chameleon like power: Both of which still make you damn hard to hit in combat. Superior Invisibility... well duh. If you never become visible... WOW should you be hard to hit. Steamy mist still obscures your form even in combat. Cloak of darkness still surrounds you in inky blackness making your body actually impossible to see.
A lot of players decry 'cookie cutter builds'. I'm starting to see evidence of 'cookie cutter powers'. Instead of having different rules for each stealth effect based on how it works, you attempt to apply a consistent set of numbers and rules. This is not the way to go if you want to encourage variety and stratgic play. Superior invisibility should probably be the hardest to hit, cloak of darkness, steamy mist, cloaking device, etc. should impart a noticeable (5%+) defense buff which is NOT suppressed. Stealth, okay, fine reduce the defense bonus in combat, but make the defense bonus suppressed at least around the same as the other pool powers which impart combat defense.
I know I'm ranting a bit, but I'm really dissapointed in how identical changes are made to powers which should not be treated identically.
I don't mind the overall 'nerfing' so much, but I think it was not done with enough attention to character concept and theme. Please take a look at this stuff. It may be too late for I-5, but maybe I-6 will give you a chance.
removed
Why was this change made? It's important that I know why so that I can give the correct type of feedback.
Was it made for balance reasons? As in, was the previous defence bonus from stealth powers considered to be too large? If this is so then please give us numbers showing that it is currently in line with other defence powers. I have another question if the above scenario is true, what's the point of making it suppress if you get hit? That means that if something attacks you then you'll only get unsuppressed defence against one attack, and no unsuppressed defence if you started it. Make it always at the same effectiveness because this type of suppression is pointless and will only make things more complicated.
The second possible reason I can think of is for thematic reasons. As in, the enemies know you're there if power bolts come flying out of the air or if they see their buddy shooting at air. If this is the case then the suppression to the actual stealth makes sense, but not of defence. Knowing that something's there isn't going to make it any easier for you to hit it.
Here's an illustration. Aim for a dartboard with your eyes closed. Even though you know where the dartboard is it's going to be much harder to hit it. The same goes for a hero who finds himself against superior forces and makes himself invisible to get away. The villains still know he's there, but that doesn't make him any easier to hit.
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Basic Stealth Powers (Pools, temp powers, and Powers not in a Defense set like Blaster Cloaking Device, Controller Illusion Invisibilities)
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Yeah, you see this is the part I don't understand nor agree with. Illusion's invis powers are lumped into this group when its clear to me that Invisiblity is a PRIMARY function of the set. Two out of nine powers are invis. Maybe this rule can or should apply to group invis, but Superior invis? It kinda takes the edge off of the name. As it is now, Superior invis is the best functioning invis power in the game(minus Phasing), why would it be in a inferior category?
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I think a much simpler and more straightforward solution is to put the defense bonus at it's "suppressed" value, and leave it there. Much easier for everyone involved, and much less confusing to explain.
[/ QUOTE ]
Now that I can see. (no pun intended). Villians who are nearby now know where you are, reducing your defense bonus against them, but you are still cloaked, ninja'd, hiding in shadows, fog banked, clouding minds, etc. so that villians farther away still don't see you.
It's starting to feel like the person who came up with the "suppression" idea has invested personal ego into it and is now selling it to the rest of the team as the "panacea for all ills" including PvP balance.
1. Stealth was great as it was pre-I5. I think it should be left alone.
2. Superior Invisibility was never used prior to I4 because it was awful. Now It's useful in I4. But with I5, Illusion Controllers are getting hit hard by having a severe reduction in pets, having Flash become an almost useless power, and having a limited ability to take advantage of the 2x damage compared to other controllers who have lots of holds. In addition to all that, making Superior Invisibility a weak power is just complete overkill in nerfing illusionists. LEAVE SUPERIOR INVISIBILITY ALONE!!
Red Warlock
- "The Shadow Rune of the Warlocks" (Arc ID 124319).
- "The Legion of Mutants vs. The Iron Agents" (Arc ID 200364).
- "The Children of Astoria" (Arc ID 217499)
Since you are nerfing the defense of stealth why not remove the artificial speed reduction? I mean some stealthy powers don't reduce speed why should others? It would help run away after the bad guys shoot you since they now will see you and your defense is wrecked. If you attack they should know you are there but you should be difficult to see, n'est-pas? So why is defense removed?
in PvP, when approaching invisi or stealthed players from far away, they are visible for a split second and then disappear.
This is a bug.
Stealth suppession should be shorten to 5 seconds...
OR
Enemy players/mobs should be able to see Stealth player for 5 seconds IF they are in 50ft.....
I don't agree with this change.
Further more I don't agree with those who says it makes sense. example
1) When I was a kid in school I sat in the back row and hit a girl in the back of the head with a rubber band. She turned around but had no idea who shot her cause I sat there with the best poker face a third grader could have. My friend ended up getting accused because he started snickering.
Or better yet
2) Cheetahs and zebras both have developed camufloge. The zebra when stationary the stripes lets the herd blend to together and when chased the the stripes causes them to be blurred against the background. The cheetah's spot do much the same thing.
3) stealth fighter jet radar signature is going to be just as small after he launches a missile as before. (if I am wrong about this one I stand corrected)
Defense in non-combat situations sounds unthoughtout.
Next up is phase shifts intangibility supressed when attacked.
After lurking for a year just reading these boards, this topic finally drove me to registering and responding.
First and foremost, much as most of the other players, I *really* want to know *WHY* any changes are needed to stealth?
Now on to my thoughts on this. My main toon is a blaster (a devices blaster no less); so, much of my views will be blaster-centric (for better or worse, that's the case).
So, what's the point of taking a stealth power? STEALTH. As inane as that may seem, the changes that are coming seem to forget that simple fact. Why would I take a STEALTH power, if I can not be STEALTHY?
Defense: as was mentioned many, many times: what's the point of a defense buff on stealth powers, if it gets suppressed as soon as I need it? (PvE *or* PvP, it's really irrelevant which in this case). Also, 10 seconds?? Are you kidding? The 4 second suppression on travel powers is bad enough, but 10 seconds?? Do you realize how much can happen in 10 seconds in this game? [And as for the PvP aspect, if you can't do something to me in 4 seconds of seeing me, you don't belong in PvP anyway - so don't say that you need 10 seconds for PvP]. I'm not going to go into the whole defense reduction bit in this thread, since that's a whole other can of worms.
Supression: Why? What's the point of suppression? As soon as I attack any mobile, the entire group that the mobile was in sees me AND they automatically retaliate. What would suppression do? It would just allow ALL the other mobiles anywhere near me to ALSO agro.
Is this really the goal? I thought the point of a lot of these changes was to increase the importance of TACTICS? Well, what tactics are we left with when as soon as we attack our defense is gone, our stealth is gone, every mob in the area *IMMEDIATELY* retaliates???
Also, suppression *SHOULD NOT* happen when we are attacked, it should only happen when we attack! Reason? Simple. I'm running down Steel Canyon using SS. I run over a group of purples, 1 of which notices me and shoots. Should I then be immediately dropped from super speed, my stealth dropped, my defenses dropped? Come on. If it's not meant to be used in combat, and it's not meant to be used to travel stealthily (while avoiding combat)..When are you actually supposed to use it??
Further, if supression *MUST* go in, for the love all that is good, PLEASE do not supress me until AFTER I have finished actually DOING something. In the sniper example listed earlier, with the sniper in the grass standing 5 feet from a squad, should the sniper be seen AS he pulls his gun out *OR* only seen *AFTER HE ACTUALLY SHOOTS*???? I don't seen *ANY* reasonable thought behind having supression activate upon a power activation versus upon a power COMPLETION. As a blaster, if I run into a mob and fire off Inferno, the mobs should NOT see me until I've actually blown them up, not as I'm stealthily powering up my explosion.
All this and so much more makes me ask: WHY? Seriously, WHY? What is the reasoning behind this? As a Fire/Dev blaster(no 'flames' please 
) I really need to ask why? I started a year ago, and when I was looking through the manual, I thought 'ooh, a stealthy fire/dev blaster sounds great!', so that's what I rolled up.
A year later:
1)Trip mines no longer work unless you are next to the mobs when they set off the trip mines
2)SS in, TM, SS out, no longer works due to supression on SS.
3)TM, SS in, pull mobs over TM no longer works since the mobs can literally STAND ON the TM's and not set them off.
4)The only couple defense powers we could get are being dramatically decreased/removed (haste, hover, cj, touch, weave).
4b)Defiance? While it's a nice thought, no blaster would *intentionally* sit at low health for a little extra damage - especially since we are 'glass cannons'
5)SG supressing CD/SS? Um...Last I checked, hitting a mobile with SG did not agro them. Why does activating a NON-AGGRO power supress stealth? (It would be the same as saying HASTEN should now supress stealth too, after all, you just set your hands on FIRE in front of the bad guys, so they saw you!). Please. Think about it. Only powers that induce aggro should supress stealth!
Changes happen; I can deal with changes to the game, changes to powers (hell, I played EQ for 5 years as a Monk, War, Druid - classes that were changed dramatically throughout). But change just to change is not a good thing. Also, changes that strip away all your options are also not a good thing.
Ugh. Wow that's a long post...and there's still more to mention; but I guess this will have to do for now.
Bottom line to the devs: THINK about WHY you want to implement the changes, and then THINK about what all the implications are to players! Sometimes just having a goal in mind and moving towards that goal is not enough. Evaluating the road taken to the goals as often times more important than achieving those goals!
Xan
[ QUOTE ]
Basic Stealth Powers (Pools, temp powers, and Powers not in a Defense set like Blaster Cloaking Device, Controller Illusion Invisibilities):
Toggles:
If you Attack, or are Hit - Critters see you . You loose half your defense buff (and your PvP stealth) for 10 seconds. Your translucency is reduced to indicate this change.
Clicks
If you Attack, or are Hit - All enemies will see you . You loose half your defense buff. Your translucency is reduced to indicate this change.
Primary Stealth Powers (Those in a defense set like Dark Armor/Cloak of Darkness, Dark Miasma/Shadow Fall, Storm Summoning/Steamy Mist, Warshade/Shadow Cloak)
Toggles:
If you Attack, or are Hit - Critters see you. (You loose your PvP stealth for 10 seconds). Your translucency is reduced to indicate this change. No Defense is Suppressed
[/ QUOTE ]
What's the difference between All enemies will see you and Critters see you?
Just last week I was wondering about this because there was no thread and sent a PM to Cuppajo. First off I'm glad its not a complete suppression becaus thats what it originally sounded like, but I still don't like this change. It currently works on live that if you attack a group of mobs that you attack they see you anyway if you have stealth power on. So I don't see how this is a change. Second of all if I read this correctly the only time you will ever get your full def bonus is say if a sniper with super sight sees through your defense and shoots you and then you'll only get it on his first shot because then your stealth is suppressed and any other mobs with out super sight can now see you.
I understand the concept of if you attack while stealthed people know where you are and have a better chance to hit you but I'm still half invisible and thus harder to hit, the only thing that changed is they know I'm there now. The only thing that was protecting me before was not my greater def bonus but was the fact they didn't know I was there. I also understand the desire to make primary power stealths more powerful compared to temp or power pool powers but I'm guessing they already have a higher def % to start with. Personally as a blaster I doubt I'll be using the new Defiance ability much, I prefer to hover/stealth/shoot from a distance and run if my health drops to much. I never need a travel power suppression because I bound hover/flight to a toggle so I can always use the def bonus of hover in a fight.
I know its nessessary for a mob to see you if you attack them but they already do that, why the def suppression if you never really use the full def bonus? If you want to nerf def bonus across the board on everything then lower the def to like 75% of current and do a suppression so they can see you but not on the def part. Not that I want less def but it makes more sense.
Overall, I don't mind the Stealth changes. I would like, though, to possibly see one of two things.
One, Instead of having Stealth 'turn off', for the duration it is suppressed, half it's Stealth aspect (the translucency).
Two, decrease the amount of time Stealth (translucency) is suppressed. Waiting 10 seconds after you defeat the last enemy is just annoying.
I could care less about the +Def Stealth gives. But loosing the 'Stealth' aspect cramps on my style. I like to jump all around and blast from midair (while jumping over a mob) and all over the place. This will now require me to basically stay in place (or move backwards) as to not agro any other nearby mobs.
Cyclone Jack
-= idspispopd =-
[size=1]Arc ID: 3155 - Project Prometheus (Seeking Feedback, now with less invalidation)[/size]
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This thread is for you to provide feedback to the Devs on the above issue. You are allowed to post ONCE in this thread. Make it count! If you post more than one time - the extra posts will be removed.
If a dev responds this count will be reset.
Here's a basic explanation of how Stealth and Stealth suppression works:
Basic Stealth Powers (Pools, temp powers, and Powers not in a Defense set like Blaster Cloaking Device, Controller Illusion Invisibilities):
Toggles:
If you Attack, or are Hit - Critters see you. You loose half your defense buff (and your PvP stealth) for 10 seconds. Your translucency is reduced to indicate this change.
Clicks
If you Attack, or are Hit - All enemies will see you. You loose half your defense buff. Your translucency is reduced to indicate this change.
Primary Stealth Powers (Those in a defense set like Dark Armor/Cloak of Darkness, Dark Miasma/Shadow Fall, Storm Summoning/Steamy Mist, Warshade/Shadow Cloak)
Toggles:
If you Attack, or are Hit - Critters see you. (You loose your PvP stealth for 10 seconds). Your translucency is reduced to indicate this change. No Defense is Suppressed
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I have a few beefs with this:
1. Cloaking Device, a power in my secondary is no better than a pool power now - thanks.
2. On test when I have Cloaking Device active, the moment I attack I'm spotted before I find out if the attack even hit or not. Know what's really ironic? - This also happens with Smoke Grenade, a power that's used in conjuction with Cloaking Device for invis. So the power that is supposed to get me to invis status aggros the mobs - brilliant design.
3. The defense buff being supressed when I actually need it? Who came up with that idea? What good is the buff doing when I'm not in combat? That's like giving a kid an ice cream sandwich, but telling him he can only have half if he plans to eat it - what else is he going to do with it?
If I sound annoyed it's because this change makes zero sense. Why even bother messing with it when it was fine as it was? Sometimes you guys get things right - this isn't one of those times.
Statesman,
Why is controllers superior invisibility, and group invisibility loaded in with the generic stealth changes and not with the primary stealth changes?
I mean they are both in our primary Illusion set? I consider these some of my primary powers much like in the defense sets you state in fact even moreso then some like for storm and dark miasma. Once again you have lowered the overall defense buff these powers provide...then when I use these powers in a way as a defense buff during conbat i lose half their effect. I again have to say [censored] in the differentiating between general and primary categories you listed why not just say that since illusion controllers can stack their superior invis and group invis powers. The defense bonus these powers can stack is above where we feel it is balanced.
lets see since you have taken away our ability to control (aoe hold nerf) and our ability to have more than 1 level 32 pet...I think the biggest benefit my illusion controller has is his defense which you have gone the route of over nerfing much like the aoe hold nerf. lets compare:
Aoe hold nerf- 1/2 duration + double recharge= 1/4 effectiveness
superior +group invis- 1/2 defense bonus+ 1/2 supression when attacking= 1/4 effectiveness.
In fact if ya look at some auxilliary powers you could stack with these changes. I would put the decrease in effectiveness closer to around 90%. This is just overkill.
[ QUOTE ]
This thread is for you to provide feedback to the Devs on the above issue. You are allowed to post ONCE in this thread. Make it count! If you post more than one time - the extra posts will be removed.
If a dev responds this count will be reset.
Here's a basic explanation of how Stealth and Stealth suppression works:
Basic Stealth Powers (Pools, temp powers, and Powers not in a Defense set like Blaster Cloaking Device, Controller Illusion Invisibilities):
Toggles:
If you Attack, or are Hit - Critters see you. You loose half your defense buff (and your PvP stealth) for 10 seconds. Your translucency is reduced to indicate this change.
Clicks
If you Attack, or are Hit - All enemies will see you. You loose half your defense buff. Your translucency is reduced to indicate this change.
[/ QUOTE ]
the Invisibilities in Illusion come from a primary power, why should it not be treated as such? what is the point of using it if one can't maintain the control of being stealthed? Between this and the extension of the time of hte ONE AoE Mez effect you are really killing Illusion's ability to actually control rather than be a second rate mastermind.
Allow us to maintain our control, allow us to have some say in the agro we take, after all if more than 10 see us(and there are so many wonderful rooms where that will happen.. ) no one can do anything about that.. so please let us maintain some semblence of control..
My main character is a stealthy Claws/Invul scrapper. Being stealthy is his entire concept... but with the upcoming changes to stealth, I've had zero desire to play him. I'm completely unmotivated now.
I honestly don't get it- Stealth will (in I5) fail if you attack or get attacked, and the amount of defense it provides will be halved... and yet the endurance drain of keeping the power turned on will still be active, and you'll still move slower if you've got it on. Um... what's the point? Why would anyone take this power?
I frankly don't much care about the defense aspects of the power. I'm a scrapper, so the amount it gave me wasn't that huge... but being able to avoid nearby aggro fit my character PERFECTLY. I built my guy around Stealth- I took the fitness pool Swift and Stamina so I could keep Stealth running at all times.
Now, if Stealth becomes not only useless, but an actual detriment to have, I'll have to completely rebuild my scrapper as something else- and he'll be that much closer to being just another cookie-cutter hero.
Actually it's odd, I agree with the DEF suppression but not the invisibility suppression.
Let's try and use an example like Liquid did. Ok, stealth can me walking quietly, using shadows etc. Ok sure, you attack your cover is blown. That's ok.
Buuuuut.......we're talking about different levels of stealth and true invisibility. We have people in flying suits, people who can cast bolts of energy, etc. So let's say I'm a Controller with Superior Invisibility and I'm of Magic origin. You're telling me that my Cloak of Inviso that the spirt of the Invisiblity God NoCanSeeMe suddenly stops working when I attack? Or that when I attack my Cloaking Device X549A that I requisitioned from Army Base Bravo suddenly goes dead? If you're invisible, you're invisible. Now they can sort of guess and that's where the DEF buff should still exist but be reduced. But that's stupid that suddenly someone down the hall can suddenly see me despite the fact I never dropped invisibility.
So yes to the DEF suppression (not all suppressed but partial suppresion) but NO to the stealth component suppression. Actually a small % chance for it to fail is ok. Things can go wrong so I wouldn't mind say, a 5% chance when you attack for the stealth component to drop.
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Of course it all makes perfect sense when trying to balance PvP for CoH and CoV, but that is a seperate issue
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<looks back and forth on a hall, all by himself>
"Seperate issues, right? Nobody believes me? Wait, dont leave!
...
Hello? Anybody there? Bueller?"
[ QUOTE ]
Basic Stealth Powers (Pools, temp powers, and Powers not in a Defense set like Blaster Cloaking Device, Controller Illusion Invisibilities):
Toggles:
If you Attack, or are Hit - Critters see you. You loose half your defense buff (and your PvP stealth) for 10 seconds. Your translucency is reduced to indicate this change.
Clicks
If you Attack, or are Hit - All enemies will see you. You loose half your defense buff. Your translucency is reduced to indicate this change.
Primary Stealth Powers (Those in a defense set like Dark Armor/Cloak of Darkness, Dark Miasma/Shadow Fall, Storm Summoning/Steamy Mist, Warshade/Shadow Cloak)
Toggles:
If you Attack, or are Hit - Critters see you. (You loose your PvP stealth for 10 seconds). Your translucency is reduced to indicate this change. No Defense is Suppressed
[/ QUOTE ]
Why are Illusion stealth's locked in w/ the other "non-defense" buffs? It's Illusion's primary power, and no less "defensive" than Storm or Dark's stealth powers.
The defense bonuses in I5 are already so low that suppressing them is pointless. You might as well just remove the defense from suppressible powers, as a practical matter the defense offers nothing.
Suppression also has several consequences.
<ul type="square">[*]Endurance is badly overpriced given the usefulness of the power.[*]There is no reason to slot Defense in Stealth powers. One of your design goals was for slotting to be useful on any power. It isn't for Stealth, GI, SI, Invis, or Cloaking Device.[*]Other powers are now useless. Flash, for instance, is impossible for Illusion to use safely as an alpha power.[*]Nonsensical results. Stealth provides defense . . . unless you're in combat, when it really doesn't? It just doesn't "sound" right.[/list]
I could elaborate these points, but you guys are busy.
Simple idea:
If our stealth is disabled (from attacking or being hit), please remove the endurance cost while it is.
I have to agree with previous posters - we have to know why this was changed. Lacking the real reasons, we can only speculate. I am not going to go so far as to say that Stealth is now useless. It is a great comfort to be able to walk around a corner and be pretty sure you will see any mobs before they see you. But it has been reduced so much that many of its old uses are now completely obsolete. Maybe Stealth was used by too many, but hey, that means the play style it made possible was considered fun!
Having played in Stealth-heavy groups, I think I can see part of the reason. With stealth as it works now, you can basically ignore any group in the room except the one you are fighting. I guess this irked the designers. Having set up this wonderful room with four groups in it, they want to force us to adopt out tactics in order to fight them one by one - like a trick puzzle.
Well, this is what I think they think, but I do not think they are right. That situation can presently be solved in a variety of ways, such as confusion, phase shifting, sleep, stealth, pulling, or simply by fighting hard and well. Several of these are now being nerfed out of existence (namely stealth and sleep), forcing many to pull no matter whether we find it fun or not. And using stealth to overcome the problem is to use tactics.
It isn't realistic - whatever that means in a comic-book context. If groups B, C and D sees group A move out the room and not come back, they ought to investigate just as much as they should for an invisible battle inside the room. In fact the idea that a whole base of council mobs would not use radio to organize their defense and root out an invader in an organized fashion is unrealistic but it is required for the game to work. The only realistic way to assail such an organized group would be to use Stealth and thats not the way we want it to be. So lets not get suck up on realism.
It is not fun - because you always have to use the same tactic. Lack of variation = no fun. Multiple different tools and ways to solve the same situation = fun. In soloing, a stealthy player can currently always use the same tactic barge right in but perfectly balancing PvE tactics for solo play is as pointless as perfectly balancing PvP for duels. In a team, it is costly to get everyone stealthed, and area stealth is easily fumbled with, so it is a tactic that you wont use every time.
It's not balanced. In group A, everyone focuses on combat. Group B has paid the price to have Stealth. Group A obviously has an advantage in pure smackdown combat - group B should have the advantage in some other situation.
Finally, some of us just don't like trick puzzles, and are willing to pay (in power options and slots) to avoid them. Using stealth was such a tool, that you could bye at cost. Now that option is gone. This can be compared to travel power. Nothing stops you from going everywhere with Sprint alone, but most players prefer to pay a price (a travel power) to cut time and make things more convenient. Well, some players like to avoid pulling and are willing to take Stealth to do that. If very many players are willing to pay to avoid pulling, then perhaps you should take a look at how pulling works and how much of it is required in the game rather than destroy the workaround.
Lets compare Stealth to Hover. Hover blasting and stealth blasting is currently two tactics that achieve similar ends. At least outdoors, Hover lets you do everything stealth does. Instead of having a shorter detection radius, you can safely and easily remain outside the standard detection radius. Even with two groups that are intermixed, if you stay 60' above them, you can fight one and not the other. In addition to this, hover does not suffer defense suppression and it allows you to stay out of melee - something Stealth can never do. To top it off, Hover is cheaper in End, so much cheaper that its defense bonus per point of end is better than Stealth. With Stealth's defense halved, Hover will now be more than twice as cost effective. The drawback of Hover is that it requires slotting to make the speed acceptible. So it comes with sort of a built-in disadvantage that can be compensated for. Well, so does Stealth - in fact the very same disadvantage, slow, and the stealth version is harder to compensate for.
[Note that I am not advocating a nerf to Hover. It is perfectly fine as is, and an interesting and viable tactic with its own costs and limitations. So should Stealth be.]
Defense pool powers generally have two effects - a primary (what they do) and a secondary (defense). Hover has free vertical movement, Combat Jumping has limited vertical movement and immobilization resistance, Stealth has concealment, Hasten has recharge and Weave has nothing but offers more defense. I can see that the base effect of Hasten was so good that the power is balanced by having its defense removed. But if Stealth's effect is considered so much better than the others that it needs to have both effect and defense halved, I'd like a dev to come out and explain why.
Whew, this became much longer than I thought it would. I am very happy we finally have a tread on this - a place to gather all our thoughts. But that should only be a first step. In the past, we have been promised an explanation for why you change things around, and that explanation is overdue here.
Aside from this, to paraphraze Cato, do Ice Tanks really need to be destroyed?
I think the stealth suppression is done all wrong. Having your stealthiness reduced some against the mobs you are fighting makes sense. They know 'someone's there'. Having it also suppressed for other mobs in the area however is a different matter. They are not yet alert to your presence and so you should still be fully steathed to them. The defense suppression makes no sense whatsoever though. If a mob is perceptive enough to realize you're there before you take any action and thus aggro on you, why are you harder to hit in that scenario than if you get in the first shot and aggro them that way? Mobs aren't going to shoot at you if they aren't aware of you. So defense from stealth should be constant at all times. Any argument in favor of DEF suppression becomes even more silly when Defender stealth powers don't have it but the vaunted Superior Invisibility, the most uber stealth in the game, does. To sum up, steath suppression should only affect the group you're engaging and DEF suppression is just plain silly.
It is known that there are an infinite number of worlds, simply because there is an infinite amount of space for them to be in. However, not every one of them is inhabited. Therefore, there must be a finite number of inhabited worlds. Any finite number divided by infinity is as near to nothing as makes no odds, so the average population of all the planets in the Universe can be said to be zero. From this it follows that the population of the whole Universe is also zero, and that any people you may meet from time to time are merely the products of a deranged imagination.