fully slotted steath would give 7.5%; roughly. Its a waste of slots to be used on a 3% def power. I think you are just spining the programers wheels with this. I get all the def when i don't need it? Why bother with the suppression of def at all and just tone down the base number? :/
Not to mention that on live it has a healthy end drain and slow component too.
The cost seem to outway the benifits.
I either want the stealth componet to stay, or the def to stay. Then I feel that at least i getting something worth while for the slot and end use.
[ QUOTE ]
Toggles:
If you Attack, or are Hit - Critters see you. You loose half your defense buff (and your PvP stealth) for 10 seconds. Your translucency is reduced to indicate this change.
Clicks
If you Attack, or are Hit - All enemies will see you. You loose half your defense buff. Your translucency is reduced to indicate this change.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just to clarify; if the mobs see and attack me, I will have full defense until they land a hit, provided I don't fight back?
Let me start with the specific before I move on to my real beef, which is more general.
Specifically, why is Superior Invisibility on your "minor stealth powers" list. It is a PRIMARY power. It is also character-defining - in the various incarnations of The Shadow, invisibility is the constant factor, and to my mind no other archetype and powerset combination matches The Shadow the way Illusion Control does.
More generally, what are you fixing here? As someone who has played since the preorder preview period, and who has played various other MMOs, computer games, and FtF RP games for some 25 years, I believe I have some perspective as a player on why I play this game. CoH is distinctive among MMOs in really only three things: (1) It is about superheroes (2) it is combat-only, no crafting, no inventory, etc. (3) It is friendlier (at least at low levels) to casual and solo players and provides ways for friends to play together when they differ widely in amount of time gaming.
(1) is already broken by the issues of being a game and an MMO, and I can't really complain about it. Superheroes do not end up in the hospital after a fight with a gang. Superhero plots are primarily puzzles, where a villain presents a barrier that prevents the hero from prevailing by brute force and the hero must cleverly or luckily find a way around that barrier. These are things that are hard to translate to a computer RPG, and basically impossible to do in an MMO. I can live with that.
(3) is the one thing about CoH that hasn't been greatly weakened since opening day. Soloing has become overall less tenable above level 20, but if you constrain your character design to the types that do solo well you can do it. Sidekicking is great, and has been there since the beginning. Adding Exemplaring was a great improvement, for various reasons in the social dynamics of play.
But I am deeply concerned that I5 is evidence that you've completely forgotten the problems with (2). In the early days, trying various hero designs, I was exhilarated by the observation that given any archetype and powerset I could come up with tactics to make them fun and useful in play. Over time this has been weakened by nearly every patch, as archetypes were forced into traditional MMO roles and the more tactically-interesting powersets (like Devices) were "balanced" into lists of boring one-trick ponies. Certainly the decision to do away with the more fun/interesting uses of Smoke Grenade and leave it only useful as part of the boring but powerful Stealth-prox-mine attack was the worst I can remember.
But it is the ability to be innovative and tactical, to come up with new ways to combine powers, that keeps this game from being boring. Face it, no matter how many different backstories you can come up with for why I must go into a building and lay waste to everything I see in it, I will still spend the same 20 minutes pushing the same buttons in the same order over and over. The interest is in variety. And I5 seems to be continuing the push to destroy that variety in the name of "balance". I could care less about "balance". I don't care that Joe Blow can reach level 50 in "only" 2000 hours of play while it will take me 2500. I care about whether I am having fun for those 2500 hours. And with every patch, this specious "balance" is the reason why my characters get more and more boring to play.
Getting back to stealth, this is a perfect example. Nothing is broken, so don't fix it. Yes, many many players take Stealth, because at high levels getting the first shot off can decide a fight. Many many players take Stamina, because standing around doing nothing is not fun. Who is hurt by these things? Certainly not the people who are playing the game for fun.
I am particularly threatened by this change because it could substantially destroy the character I had hoped to finally get to level 50. Between the "balancing" away of fun on some characters, and the fact that the time/reward curve is designed backwards in this game (the time to level increases exponentially, but as you get to higher levels the number of levels between new powers gets *longer*!), I have had most of my characters get into the low 30s and stop, because the perceived reward for playing them more went to hell. So I finally have a charcter where I got lots of interesting powers with potentially interesting combinations by level 30, where I can expect to keep experimenting with those to fill the gaps between new powers. He is an Illusion controller, and now I see that one of the powers that gives him the most flexibility and 50% of his solo capability is going to be changed such that he can no longer do anything except stealth-cheese glowy missions with it.
Please stop the madness. Stop chasing the illusion of "balance" and start thinking about "fun for non-exploiters" instead. Ignore the children who measure their success in games by how quickly they "beat" them. They will be abandoning your game for the newest flavor of the month soon anyway. Don't continue destroying the game that has kept me playing for over a year chasing a chimera.
Thank you for listening.
So if my 3D is running around with her group under shadowfall and the blaster shoots something does the blaster become visible to the entire group of 8 bad guys or does everyone in the group lose the stealth.
If it's a primary click stealth power (grant invisibility) does the same thing apply?
Personally I don't understand the necessity of these changes. Are stealth powers breaking the game? No.
Are stealth powers encouraging powerleveling, kill stealing, herding and the rotting of fruit on the vine. No.
Are stealth powers providing players an alternative to the constant "gotta wade through more orcs then helms deep" mentality that can happen in this game? yes.
Are stealth powers well costed for the benefits?Yes.
The changes you are proposing are just simply thematic. The dungeon master has decided he was tired of people avoiding the monsters and or fighting the monsters and not attracting the attention of the wandering monsters.
Please reconsider the changes in their entirety. All you are doing is stripping away a tool to "play smarter not harder."
Actually its pretty funny because sometimes stealth right now in its current incarnation can bring more aggro on me then I would like! So my poor blaster (whoes concept you are ruining) suddenly will have to always team.
oh wait thats what you want.
There is more then one way to achieve stealth in the city of paragon and you want to turn stealth into a "natural origin" power. What about the players of magic, tech or science origin? I bet those players are scratching their heads trying to figure out how to explain this.
The vision meets the realworld.
The F-117 stealth fighter drops its bombs, suppression automatically opens the airbrakes to slow the fighter to the speed of a Sopwith Camel and a large spot light from god blares down on the F-117 as Ethel Merman blares out from the crack in heaven "god bless America."
F-117 pilot thinks as every gun and missile in 100 miles is fired at him "I hate nerfs."
[ QUOTE ]
Primary Stealth Powers (Those in a defense set like Dark Armor/Cloak of Darkness, Dark Miasma/Shadow Fall, Storm Summoning/Steamy Mist, Warshade/Shadow Cloak)
Toggles:
If you Attack, or are Hit - Critters see you. (You loose your PvP stealth for 10 seconds). Your translucency is reduced to indicate this change. No Defense is Suppressed
[/ QUOTE ]
Liking this very much but does this also apply to illusion's group invisibility which is a click and not a toggle?
I'd just like clarification before i cheer.
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
I was wondering if it would be possible to add a range debuff similar to the storms Hurricane but not as strong to the stealth powers during the time when its defense and perception reduction is suppressed.
With cloaking device for example when you attack your target would naturally become aware of your presence ( perception reduction suppression ) but should still have a hard time getting a target lock on you forcing you opponents to move closer to you to get a lock. Perhaps a small accuracy debuff for single target ranged attacks but not melee and AOEs.
Xanthor Defender 50 Empathy/Electricity/Power,
Arctic Heat 42 Tanker Fire/Ice/Pyre Guardian
Xanthor Blaster 50 Fire/Electricity/Electric
Dr Victor Fury MM 50 Robo/Dark/Mace Freedom
Support Big Red Balls
[ QUOTE ]
If you Attack, or are Hit - Critters see you.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sounds like this could happen.
Stealth move anywhere, run by one mob group, get spoted by one, as you are near another mob group you get hit by the former mobs attack, all the mobs in the next group see and attack you while you though you were safely out of agro range. Doesn't make sense to me.
I had always believed the existence of the power pools was to allow us to tailor our characters to our individual tastes...my fire blaster could be very different from other fire blasters, depending upon the non-AT powers I took. But now, with the radical nerf of many of these powers, there's much less point in taking many of them.
I was especially interested in making a melee blaster (the blapper), relying heavily on powers such as stealth, hover, tough, etc., to make up for the blaster's low defense levels. Now, it doesn't make sense to waste all those slots for only half (or less) of the small benefit they used to give.
Also, it can't be said enough about the change to stealth: why do I need defense when I'm not being attacked?
Partial Character List: http://www.warlock-inc.com/CharList.html
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you Attack, or are Hit - Critters see you.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sounds like this could happen.
Stealth move anywhere, run by one mob group, get spoted by one, as you are near another mob group you get hit by the former mobs attack, all the mobs in the next group see and attack you while you though you were safely out of agro range. Doesn't make sense to me.
[/ QUOTE ]
At least as likely:
Empath Defender with SS + Stealth hangs out in the room with his teammates, buffing and healing but not blasting and thus drawing no aggro. Malta mob fires a shot from one of those weird cone-effect handguns they carry, the ones where there's a sudden "smack" sound and you look around trying to figure out how you were shot. Poof! Stealth drops, now you're visible.
Or say ...
Force Field defender with Stealth stands behind the group, trying to keep everyone in Dispersion as much as possible. A Freakshow boss lobs a grenade into the group. Lacking personal bubbles, your defense isn't as good and so smack! You're hit by the aoe damage. Poof! Stealth drops, now you're visible.
Substitute Earth Thorn stalagmites, Nemesis flamethrowers, Malta stun grenades, Tsoo caltrops, Freakshow ball lightning, or any other mob attack which may catch you incidentally without your being targeted directly. I perceive this change as addressing stealthy defender-types who don't draw aggro because they don't attack mobs, even surviving team wipes as long as they stay out of sight. No aggro means reduced risk, therefore Statesman has less fun, and so there you have it.
Dropping stealth when you initiate the attack (rather than when it lands) is probably designed to stop controllers, blasters, etc., from relying on stealth for an effective alpha-strike. Declaration of intent to attack is now sufficient to draw everyone's attention. Thus more risk, therefore Statesman has fun.
Not kidding,
FCM
Please try MA arc ID 351455, "Shard Stories: Scavenger's Hunt." Originally created for the Dr. Aeon contest, it explores the wild potential of one of the City's most concept-rich but content-poor settings: the Shadow Shard.
The idea of stealth supressing is laughable. I can think of so many situations, either in comics or movies, where someone has been stealthy or invisible, and their stealth didn't drop on attacking or being attacked. Think of the new batman movie.
Your stealth supression should be a "hit roll", based on perception. You hit someone, they have a roll to see you. I would say somewhere in the 50-60% range. And they have a chance of losing you again, maybe in the 30-40% range. this would be much more realistic. If a marine was in full camo or in a ghilly suit, and you get shot or hit, you aren't always going to be able to pick him out of the scenery. You MIGHT be able to, and that would be your perception.
If you are attacked it should be the same the same, however the numbers should be less in your favor, because obviously you've already been seen.
Don't turn stealth into the same thing every other MMO has. It was unique and it was cool. Atleast look into the whole roll to supress. That atleast makes sense.
I'm sorry, I have a problem with the basic 'I attack and all critters in the mob see me immediately'. That's completely unrealistic.
For example... Cassano sneaks into a mob with SS/Stealth running. He hits build up/aim/nova sequence - is seen before nova goes off, and any and all survivors are turning to immediately attack him. No defense, no endo, no SS. Life sucks.
In such a big badda boom, the remaining live mob should have a few moments of 'what the @#$ confusion. Even running. Something came in and nuked them and the first reation for all of them is NOT going to be turn accurately on the attacker and begin to fire.
Taking the same toon and sneaking up with Power Burst, blasting it into the back of a single minion as it's two buddies stand unwittingly by. WHOA. Buddy goes flying suddenly for no reason, chaos ensues, there should be a moment or two where the remaining mob may ATTACK, RUN, or STAND CONFUSED looking for a target.
When my blaster gets sniped or attacked and I don't know where its coming from, I don't turn instantly on the attacker and hit. I have to find them. Sometimes I luck out and it's obvious. Sometimes I freak and run first, look second. Sometimes I take the hits and spin around, looking for them and swearing all the while...
I really feel Stealth powers NEED to initiate some form of non-slottable confusion, that gives you the random chance of not being nailed by all of them when you initiate an attack and are in that '10 second period'. A few seconds - long enough to decide if you're running or committing to take the group out now that you're 'visible'.
And personally, I think the time should be reduced to 5 seconds for stealth suppression. MAYBE just for blasters, eh? (no, I'm not self serving... heh...) After all, since they're 'glass cannons', it seems like they SHOULD be the masters of stealth, sneaking, and using it in combat. Add into that, the Devs saw in their infinite glory to give alot of blasters melee secondary powers (melee range - last place most of them want to be)... seems like they should have some sort of stealthy edge if they try and use them.
As for defense... put it BACK to I4. The uber squishies need it. If you're worried about it stacking with things you don't want it to stack with (can't think of any combo right now personally) then make it not stack AND make sure it's in the description so players will know what they're getting into.
heh. That's probably not too helpful, but I just had to say it. I get really tired of the 'instant spot' effect when I lose stealth and how the whole damn mob starts firing at me, the attcks still nailing me even when I make it around a corner before anything actually hits.
If the concealment is suppressed, the movement penalty should also be suppressed.
If the benefits are mostly suppressed, the endurance cost should be mostly suppressed.
I don't agree with the concealment suppression though. The concealment makes Stealth fun and useful, while not being overpowered in any way. I still aggro a group I attack, just not another nearby group. With the change, Stealth only becomes useful for traveling, and therefore becomes basically useless when Invisibility comes around.
The tiny defense bonus (halved, remember) is irrelevant in combat and is heavily outweighed by the penalties.
[ QUOTE ]
If you Attack, or are Hit - Critters see you.
[/ QUOTE ]
So some level 14 hero going SuperSpeed down Steel Canyon passes some minion and gets popped for 9 damage three blocks later, suddenly everything he passes can see him for 10 seconds. Or someone with Invisibility(pool power) is SuperJumping through Crey's Folly and gets tagged by a sniper, for the next two jumps that person is visible.
Also, what counts as a hit? DoT attacks? Caltrops? CoT crystals? I suppose I could go try to test, but that's going to be alot of hospital trips.
This is really similar to the controller 75% AoE nerf, if it looks like it makes a fight an inch easier it gets nerfed by a yard.
I know this is harder than just dropping invisibility entirely. But when you aattack someone while stealthed, it makes no sense that EVERYONE sees you. The guy you shot at should see you (miss or hit) and people near him should see you, not everyone.
Ditto when you get hit. The guy who hit you shold see you, and people near him, not the whole map.
As mentioned, it's ideal for breaking groups into pieces an important tactic. This version is meant to make us be tactical, so keep the tactical aspect of this power.
The return of partial defense upon being spotted is nice and makes sense and I appreciate that. But the "stealth drop" is just not good.
[ QUOTE ]
If you are travelling through a zone/mission, using stealth to avoid aggroing the baddies (a fairly common usage for the powers), and a sniper or other high perception badguy spots you and takes a potshot, for the next 10 seconds all badguys you run/jump/fly in range of will see you and aggro?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. If a Sniper fires at you, and if they hit you, any and ALL mobs near you when you are HIT will see you and could aggro to you.
Everyone, just to be clear: On Test, if you attack with Stealth on, ANY AND ALL MOBS IN AGGRO range have a chance at seeing you. NOT just the single mob or mob group you interacted with.
Having the single mob or mob group that you attack with stealth running then realize your presence MAKES SENSE and this is how it currently is on Live.
Having everybody and their brother be able to see you that you had ZERO interaction with is ridiculous.
Keep in mind also, that currently on Test (and even on Live), Mob groups can be incredibly close together; more so when in a team than solo.
Also on Test, Sappers are in MULTIPLES even while solo on HEROIC. I came across, while solo, mob groups of 2 or 3 Sappers....and there were SEVERAL mob groups around/close by, each with 2 Sappers.
With Stealth suppression on Test:
* Snipers are INSANELY difficult. Not just to avoid, but to take out in general.
* Objects in which you have to destroy will be very much more difficult because if there are any mobs in aggro-range, they will spot you; what if I just wanted to limit my killing spree and do just the task at hand??? Maybe I didn't want to clear the fricken room in the first place.
* AoE splash damage knocks off your stealthiness. Try running past a choke point that a Tanker is trying to maintain while AoEs are going off without being seen in the next room.
* If you are hit while Stealth is on, and you need to RETREAT, you better know where you are going. You go into a completely independant room during the suppression, you will have just made yourself some new eager friends. This also applies to "street hunting".
I just find this method completely ridiculous and without merit. With these changes, I'll have zero use for the power in any way that I play the game.
And I have to throw my concern for what's also been mentiond about having the Defense be suppressed when you need it most. Just........doesn't..........make..........sense.
Lowered the defense, kept the endurance costs the same, suppress both stealth and defense at the same time...... 
Enough with the "full tilt" changes. EITHER / OR. I'm tired of the full scale slashing and the *minor* "token buffs" being given back.
I've already forgotten about most of you
Just want to throw my two inf in here. I didn't read the whole thread so I'm not sure how much this has already been covered.
Stealth, for my toons that have it, has nothing to do with defense. I could care less about the defense. It was all about being able to isolate one group of mobs in a room without getting the other 4 groups on me at the same time.
I can see supressing the stealth component for the group that has been attacked (which isn't needed, they already all knew I was there in I4 if I attacked any member of the group) but having unengaged groups half-way across the room aggro on my poor blasters is a nightmare.
It's not necessarily a nightmare that I can't overcome on, say, Assault Rifle because the range is good. On Energy, on the otherhand, this is devastating. I took my 26 Energy/Dev toon with Cloaking Device through the same mission on test and live and it was not fun on test.
This is the only piece of I5 I actually look at with dread. My SR/Claws scrap is ok with the defense changes. Blaster primaries with short-ish range are gonna get better at running away (which is saying a lot 'cause they're squishy and already know when to split).
Adam Seven, MA/Regen, Lvl50
Warboy, AR/Energy, Lvl50
Sammy Sorrow, Dark/Energy, lvl44
Cariosus, DB/Will Brute, Lvl50
Myriad, Mercs/Traps, Lvl 42
So many others...
"From the cradle bars
comes a beckoning voice
it sends you spinning
you have no choice...... "
Sorry, I don't really see the need for this change.
From the way it reads, once you are seen/attacked by any enemy you lose half your hero loses half of their stealth defense. Doesn't that mean that full bonus will only apply for a single hit in the entire conflict with that/those enemy/ies? In that case, I fail to see the actual need for having this element in normal game play. All it will do (suppression) is make something complex that doesn't need to be.
While I think the defense rating should remain constant, in comprimise, perhaps it would be better if the stealth defense was nearly (so it's still lower as desired) doubled, but still surppressed. That way, there is a higher degree of defense for that first shot due to the nature of stealth making a target hard to see at first, but still providing a good level of defense during the fight as an opponent that is stealthed is still hard to fight effectively even if you know where they should be or appear to be.
Please address whether it is a good idea for non agro powers to count as attacks for this purpose (especially stealth like powers with -perception on them, like smoke).
Please explain the difference, if any, between "critters" and "all enemies". How long do they see you for, is it still 10 seconds? How many of them see you?
What if you are attacked but did not attack? Is stealth suppressed then?
Woah woah woah, you are making the secondary powerset (DA) stealth more powerful than the 2 primary illusion powers.
That is F**** up, States I am usually on your side for things but this is bass ackwards, one of the primary tenants of the powers in this game has been that primary powers are always better than secondary equivalents, and this is totally counter to that.
I am happy to see a post like this... straight forward answer, thanks... one question... Primary Stealth power, you only mention toggle... Illusion has a primary click stealth?? ie Group Invis... will that effect be lost across the board, or to only the teammates who are effected and not the caster?
Infinity: 50
InfernalMachine F/F Tank
Shaugraun MA/Reg
Burning Force Fire/kin
Rancor DM/EA Brute
Triumph:
Phanatique Lvl:30 BS/Regen Scrapper
Mu Machine Lvl 44 SS/ElA Brute
I'm with most questioning the classification of Superior Invisibility as a basic stealth power. First it's superior. Second it's invisibility, not simple stealth. Third, it's a primary power from a set based on being a master of illusion.
I'm also in the camp that does not understand the need or rationale for supressing the defense portion of any stealth power. If you're hard to see, you're hard to see (a la Predator). You'll be difficult to target.
With the stealth suppression, I'm not as sure. I do think that nothing should be suppressed until after an affect actually affects the target, not at initiation. I do see why stealth should be reduced (you are making your presence known) if you attack, but not eliminated. The aggro rules already seem to handle what needs to be done. The target hit and a small number surrounding are made aware of your presence. This is already stealth suppression.
The part about stealth suppression upon being hit makes little sense as well.
If there does have to be a suppression, 10 seconds seems too long. 4-5 sec seems more reasonable.
Also, if there is suppression, I think that while stealth powers are active, there should be an active - aggro effect. This means that mobs quickly lose track of you while you are stealthed. Simpler stealth would take longer, more advanced stealth (invisibilty) would be more robust in its - aggro effects.
All in all, I hate suppression. I hate suppression on advanced movement powers, I hate suppression on stealth powers (although I must grudgingly admit that this makes at least a little sense in some ways). It is a poor and intrusive game mechanic which breaks the suspension of disbelief and the flow of what was previously an excellent game in terms of feel and dynamics.
They say "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." There are a few things that were broken and needed fixing for I5, this wasn't one of them. This change, above all others stinks of being solely derived from PvP balance issues. There were no PvE exploits that I am aware of.
You've said many things States, and been misquoted many times. But one thing you said, a clarified explicitly, was that you would not make any changes solely for PvP. Please, why is this necessary under any consideration for PvE?
BTW, I also like the confusion effect put forth. I think that mobs need to be more confused in general at the start of combat. Shot out of the darkness? Immediate, accurate response. Friend disappears into thin air? (TP Foe) Immediate running to the arrival point, even if behind walls. And the mob teleported? Often gets it's swing in before the teleporter can ready an attack. This is something that has been broken for the longest time, but receives no attention -- probably because, while more realistic and believable, actually makes players more powerful, and we wouldn't want that, would we?
removed
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
I know what I'm going to say here has probably been said a lot in this thread, but its about 1 am and I just got on the forums, so, can't comb it all tonight. First. I'd like to say, I like the idea of defense being halved on Stealth powers rather then jut...gone during the entire fight. And, as a blaster, a little defence is better then no defence. And I can see why it would suddenly be easier for our enemies to see us...every Sci-fi movie I've ever seen shows the shields go down when the cloak goes up...and when the ship fires...bam, there it is. So, I would like to say, thanks for the clearer explination, devs. I was pretty scared stealth would be useless, this atleast gives me hope.
I don't know or care how you balance this for PvP. You promised us that PvP balance would not effect the PvE game. I don't see any reason why these powers should work this way in PvE.
I want one free shot. I don't want the "critters" to see me until I do damage. The way it is now, I wind up for the shot and they attack me before I even finish it.
I would rather have half defense for half endurance all the time then pay full endurance for half the defense the only time I need it.