Daolong

I usually go with 4 lvl 50 makos and 2 lvl 50 generic heal IOs.

44% acc, recharge and end redux, 93% damage and 83% heal.

Since I tend to build a large amount of global acc and rech into my builds anyway, the set bonuses and cost (or lack there of) makes it a solid slotting choice.

Thats easy... The median DPS expectancy of DM/SD is a metric butt load.

Seriously though, I just figure the base damage before soul drain and with one target in AAO and figure that it only goes up from there.

Trying to get anymore complicated than that is asking for a brain hemorrhage.

Umm... Im a little confused... This is a thread about all the stuff Nihilii has accomplished, not failed.

You have read past the initial post right?

Heh... One thing about max hp I have found is that you generally get more than you need in invuln just by going for the set bonuses that you find useful.

Regen is a heck of a lot better to invest in, and generally is in the first set bonus.

Now, keep in mind my advice was for DM/invuln specifically, which your priorities are first defense and second recharge.

Some builds like say fire/invuln can get away with lower recharge but need regen and recovery more for instance.

Sorry I ended up derailing the thread a bit Nihilii

Oh, a quick note.

DM doesnt need aid self. Siphon life makes it redundant.

Also, to get the levels of defense I mentioned above is actually relatively easy to obtain... 4 sets of 4 reactive armor, 1 set of 4 kinetic combat, 2 sets of 3 aegis and 1 set of 3 eradication stacked on top of the steadfast IO, weave and manuvers will get you above 41%.

Add in say combat jumping or hover, or few set bonuses and your set for defense.

There are other ways to get there, but thats probably the most cost effective way.

Hope that helps.

Oh, and grats on the uber RWZ challenge Nihilii... Ive only done it with 2 chief soldiers so far.

Granted I was impatient and pulled two spawns so had about 12 conscripts as well, but we both know the bosses are the dangerous ones

Nihilii's build is sitting at 36.5 s/l and 33 f/c/n/e with one foe in range.

That puts it at the soft cap for s/l and ~43 f/c/n/e with 10 foes.

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My DM/INV -- tricked out with sets for +HP and+recharge

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That unfortunately is where you went wrong... the +HP does nothing for you really.

The recharge is needed however to get a nice attack chain and perma DP.

Basically, you want at least 41% defense to all s/l/f/c/n/e, with 43+ being preferable.

You also want upwards of 60% global recharge on top of hasten so you can chain smite/MG/smite/SL.

Nihilii has well over 300% regen in that build as well, but thats not quite as important for DM because of siphon life.

You will still want ~80-85% heal enhance in SL and 280-300 passive regen.

Add on top of that soul drain with less than 10 seconds downtime and some decent endurance control and you can lay some serious smack down with DM/invuln.

Just dont expect it to be cheap (although it will be cheaper than werners builds by a good margin).

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Will do. I'm lazy, though, so I'm just going to copy and paste.

Daolong, you rock. If it wasn't for your advice about minions and Invincibility, I might still be struggling against easy AVs like Battle Maiden instead of doing that stuff. Also used your idea to use Council minions against Rommie, as you can see.

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Heh... Well, I will take that compliment.

On the other hand, taking down that autohit fluffy like that was genius.

Dude... You rock.

Eh... Shields is definitely a tight build, thats for sure.

But AAO gives so much damage potential its not even funny, and since your defense doesnt change like with invince you might as well cherry pick some harmless minions and use them as extra damage buffs.

On a side note, I might just have to try playing with Ebil Rommy with my DM/invuln. The council mobs sitting around dont have -defense like the cimoreans do, and wolves especially make great soul drain bait.

Biggest problem is that the auto hit fluffy is pure negative damage I believe, and thats the lowest resist value I have.

Want in on a little secret? Grab some minions... like 9 of them or so.

You are at 46% smash lethal and ~44% everything else with fully saturated invinc.

I know it goes against logic, but you will be safer with more mobs. Its like having a luck and a couple of acc inspirations going at all times.

Grats on the wins btw.

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So... You dont have 'cane slotted up, and your complaining about your survivability?

I can understand the lack of damage (even though your stormy can buff his damage where my FF cant) but with a few slots of investment you can pretty much make yourself unkillable by a single boss.

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I apologize, I wasn't aware we gained XP for debuffing things to death. My bad.

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More than one way to skin a cat.

Do my defenders solo like my scrappers? Heck no.

I have built them for team play, but I can still run my missions on unyielding solo if I want.

It just takes a while.

The only time I get into trouble is when I forget I am not playing my IOed out uber scrapper, and try to herd up and kill 15 arachnos with a boss in the midst.

I dont have PFF btw, so bubble herding tends to be pretty fatal for me.

So... Throw some slots in hurricane, step out of the controller mindset and play your defender for a bit, you might be surprised with the result.

I am not saying that everything with every defender set is perfectly fine.

Its not. But its not nearly as broken as everyone keeps saying it is.

Heck, Im tempted to dust off my old MAN build just to show that its literally possible to solo with anything.

So... You dont have 'cane slotted up, and your complaining about your survivability?

I can understand the lack of damage (even though your stormy can buff his damage where my FF cant) but with a few slots of investment you can pretty much make yourself unkillable by a single boss.

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This is why you no longer get bosses on heroic, because after critters were buffed many Defenders and some Trollers couldn't solo a single boss.


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Maybe im having a bit of a disconnect here, but are you saying that FF Defenders cant solo bosses well?

I dont know about you, but since I picked up force bolt I have had very little trouble with bosses, other than the time it takes to kill them.

About the only ones that give me fits are the carnie Master Illusionists, and last time I checked they tend to give everybody a bit of trouble.

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So just because you've had no trouble with bosses since you got Force Bolt, that means all Defenders of any pairing of primaries and secondaries at any level shouldn't have trouble soloing bosses?

Cause if that's what you're saying, let me introduce you to my lvl 28 Storm/Electricity Defender, who is lucky if she can kill an LT, let alone a boss.

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Well, to be fair I havent ever played a stormy, and I dont care for electric blast either.

But of the defenders I do play consitantly (FF/Dark, Kin/Dark, TA/A) I have not had much trouble with soloing bosses.

Its not like it is on my scrappers mind you, but with a little thought and some liberal use of my primary I can usually turn a boss into a kitten.

Anyway... Dont you have gale? You should be able to use that just like I use force bolt, not to mention all the other nifty things storm can do...

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This is why you no longer get bosses on heroic, because after critters were buffed many Defenders and some Trollers couldn't solo a single boss.


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Maybe im having a bit of a disconnect here, but are you saying that FF Defenders cant solo bosses well?

I dont know about you, but since I picked up force bolt I have had very little trouble with bosses, other than the time it takes to kill them.

About the only ones that give me fits are the carnie Master Illusionists, and last time I checked they tend to give everybody a bit of trouble.

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The FF's damage is already lower than any other Defender in the game, and I can tell you from experience, his defense is anything but tank mage level. And the defense does not have to be the full 15% of an Insulation or Deflection Shield, it can be 10%, as I suggested, or 7.5%, as long as it reduces the gap between the protection of Dispersion alone, and the protection of Dispersion plus the bubbles.

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Going to have to be a bit of a wet blanket here, but currently a FF fender has access to the following defense powers:

Dispersion - 10% base
Manuevers - 3.5% base
Weave - 5% base
Combat jumping/hover - 2.5% base (hover might be 1.87, but its close enough).

If you took tough to get weave, you have access to the steadfast +3% defense IO as well.

Assuming 56% enhancement in Dispersion, manuveres and weave, and just base CJ your looking at 31.36% defense to all, 34.36% with the steadfast unique.

You know what happens when you add another 7.5-10% defense elsewhere in the set?

Soft capped defense with very little (if any) IO investments.

Dont forget that a defender would also have access to an epic resist shield, giving you a total of 66% smash/lethal resists on top of that.

Oh yeah, you would still have a pool pick open to take aid other/aid self.*

Just saying... I dont think more defense is a viable option from a balance perspective.

*Edit - without stamina, which on second thought is probably not an option with this many toggles running. Despite that, you can still get a self heal if you take dark blast, along with all the other stuff DB brings to the table.

Couple of counterpoints/questions:



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Correcting the cones will also make the Knockback powers more attractive to Defenders who team regularly.

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How do you propose to correct the cones, and how does that make knockback powers more attractive to teams?

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Adding a Defender Epic Pool that offers a +DEF shield and a way to overcome catastrophic defense failure will solve the problem of FF Defenders being underprotected without overpowering or nerfing Controller and Mastermind Defense.

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Lack of defense has much less to do with the squishiness of FF in the later levels than the sleep hole in dispersion does, and since FF already have access to tough/weave and maneuvers, adding a defense shield would allow the FF to get too much defense.

Either that, or the shield would have to be typed defense instead of positional, and would make it pretty much useless considering IO interaction.

To put it in perspective, a FF who has wants to can get 34%+ defense and 65%+ smash/lethal resists.

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Reworking Vigilence so that it provides some sort of useful bonus to Defenders, including FF Defenders.

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Thats a defender issue, not an FF issue.

In fact, anything that deals with secondaries would be a defender issue as well, and really doesnt belong in this thread, it should have a thread of its own.

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I personally see it likely that any changes other than minor tweaks to existing capabilties will ripple through to ATs other than Defenders. Because FF is working so well for me in other ATs, I personally don't want to see this happen.

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Lifes rough. If its broken, it needs to be fixed.

Odds are that if it works for defenders it will work well for other sets also. Heck, it will probably be better than it is now.


As for specific powers:

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Blah blah blah, I dont want them changed because I like them how they are blah blah*

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We understand.

No really, we do.

It sucks to have something you like get changed, but that doesnt mean the change doesnt need to happen.

Whether you will admit it or not, FF is not built correctly for defenders or anyone else.

Sure, controllers and masterminds have ways to work a round the problems of the set (and sometimes even use said problems to their advantage) but that doesnt change that the problems exist.

By the way, you telling us to ignore the man behind the curtain isnt going to work.

Even the scarecrow can see through that trick, and the poor thing doesnt even have a brain...

* Quote modified for brevity and entertainment value. Its also exactly what my brain saw when I was reading, so as far as im concerned its a valid quote.

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If you added a resist debuff to force bolt, damage to repulsion field and defense debuff to force bubble then you have differentiated them quite a bit while still keeping them similar enough (thats just an example of how you could do it) and the core use of the powers unchanged.

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All these powers would then pull more aggro, which would be a disasterin the case of Force Bubble.

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Maybe you and I are playing different sets, but my FF/dark is already so much of an agro [censored] a little more wouldnt even get noticed.

Especially if it means that stuff dies faster/easier.

Just to throw this out there, but actually adding straight up damage to FF would help with both items 1 and 3.

The trick is keeping it in line for controllers, which would mean making it immune to containment, and possibly the ability to buff it with damage completely.

Force bolt and RB and repulsion field are the most likely candidates, but RB would need a rework to make the damage even useful.

The other option is to add a -resist effect to force bolt and/or RF.

Detention field is a pretty sucky power if you ask me.

It would be better as a straight up hold or as an immobilize that screws over the targets defense and resistance, but that might be a cottage item.

The second option would help with one and 3 though.

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Several powers may be considered "redundant" because they perform the same or similar function. /unsigned I believe this goes back to learning how to use the powers effectively

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Eh, there just basically needs to be something more added so that they overlap, but are not so redundant.

If you added a resist debuff to force bolt, damage to repulsion field and defense debuff to force bubble then you have differentiated them quite a bit while still keeping them similar enough (thats just an example of how you could do it) and the core use of the powers unchanged.

It would just make them a little more useful over all.

I would take that version of RB in a heartbeat.

Hmm... Jade dragon gave me an idea.

Why not make force bubble into two bubbles.

The inner bubble would be a little bigger than dispersion, and would do the same repel that it does now. The outside bubble would be the same size as it is now, but does KD instead of repel.

That way you still get the huge freaking bubble and control from repel, but with the added benefit of having a"safe zone" where baddies cant stay standing and you can pick em off with blasts.

Anything that pushes in would still have the knock down effect to deal with.

Just a thought...

You know, maybe if they just upped Force Bolt to do 25-30 damage base, and then gave repulsion field the same amount of damage as well, but give it an accuracy check.

That way, even if you have a KB resistant mob you still get some benefit from the power.

Make the damage immune to containment, and keep it low for MMs.

Then give force bubble +perception and give it a 25-50% chance to KD every 5 seconds(in addition to its repel), and then make it so you can slot KB sets in it.

The other option would be to make mobs "stick" to the edge of force bubble. Not sure if its possible, but basically you would be able to drag mobs wherever you wanted with it while keeping them at max range.

Like into the air. Then you could turn it off...

Reduce the recharge on force bubble, then add a secondary effect that we could get some use from.

Something like a slow effect or a consistent knockdown for anything that is inside the bubble.

Nothing major, just something flavorful.

Detention field as a toggle debuff style power would be very nice, as opposed to the click.

That sounds like a decent epic power pool right there.

Food Mastery.

Speaking of food mastery, I think the high point of my feats of gastronomical digestion came when I ate 2 belgian waffles, a full stack of pancakes, 4 sausage links, 3 eggs and then proceeded to finish off all the leftovers of 12 other people at my table at IHOP.

I was hungry...

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buncha old farts

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Its why I play my Invuln more than my regen.

I like being able to have ingame heart attacks.

Keeps me grounded...

/e sigh


I can remember when I was able to eat stuff like that and not turn into a beach ball.

I used to eat a half dozen rasberry filled powdered donuts and a quart of dark chocolate milk as a snack inbetween meals and could still lose weight.

Now I almost have a heart attack just thinking about ordering one of those baconators...